Mobil calls their Dex VI a synthetic blend.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Dexron-VI_ATF.aspx
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Dexron-VI_ATF.aspx
Dex VI Synthetic VS Non Synthetic
- Thread starter Quadrasteer
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Yep, same deal for the Canadian Mobil Super Dex VI version.
Guess they're all not full syn.....so much for the Phi Beta Kappas.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
in what way would the user expect the better base oil package to exhibit itself in use?
Better extreme temperature performance, improved oxidation resistance, fewer varnish deposits over life of ATF.
in what way would the user expect the better base oil package to exhibit itself in use?
Better extreme temperature performance, improved oxidation resistance, fewer varnish deposits over life of ATF.
Any more opinions on the "I guess all the Dexron V1s are NOT full syn" so what are they topic??
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Better extreme temperature performance, improved oxidation resistance, fewer varnish deposits over life of ATF.
I use one of the Red Line ATFs myself.
However, unless there is something I am missing, over a period of - say - 100k miles, in normal use the difference between Red Line D6 and the majors' Group III based licensed Dexron VI in terms of oxidation and varnish should be miniscule at best.
The Red Line appears from its specifications to offer some advantage at very low temperatures, but at temperatures that are academic in the lower 48.
Assuming that the Red Line D6 is PAO-based, it would offer some advantages at very high temperatures, but at those temperatures other components - seals and other elastomers for example - in the transmission would likely be damaged. If the owner is towing a trailer through Death Valley at noon he would be better off with some auxiliary cooling whether he used D6 or a licensed Dexron VI.
He might also consider moving to Red Line D4 or even High-Temp ATF.
It is my impression that GM's GMN 10060 raises the bar high enough that buying a premium ATF will be money wasted for most drivers.
Better extreme temperature performance, improved oxidation resistance, fewer varnish deposits over life of ATF.
I use one of the Red Line ATFs myself.
However, unless there is something I am missing, over a period of - say - 100k miles, in normal use the difference between Red Line D6 and the majors' Group III based licensed Dexron VI in terms of oxidation and varnish should be miniscule at best.
The Red Line appears from its specifications to offer some advantage at very low temperatures, but at temperatures that are academic in the lower 48.
Assuming that the Red Line D6 is PAO-based, it would offer some advantages at very high temperatures, but at those temperatures other components - seals and other elastomers for example - in the transmission would likely be damaged. If the owner is towing a trailer through Death Valley at noon he would be better off with some auxiliary cooling whether he used D6 or a licensed Dexron VI.
He might also consider moving to Red Line D4 or even High-Temp ATF.
It is my impression that GM's GMN 10060 raises the bar high enough that buying a premium ATF will be money wasted for most drivers.
I have assumed that Redline and Neo oils are an ester based products.....
This is what distinguishes them from others in the racing field!
I know....if I assume and you take the ume off...that is what I am.
This is what distinguishes them from others in the racing field!
I know....if I assume and you take the ume off...that is what I am.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
If the owner is towing a trailer through Death Valley at noon he would be better off with some auxiliary cooling whether he used D6 or a licensed Dexron VI.
He might also consider moving to Red Line D4 or even High-Temp ATF.
It is my impression that GM's GMN 10060 raises the bar high enough that buying a premium ATF will be money wasted for most drivers.
One has to determine for himself as to whether buying a slightly more expensive fluid is worth the extra headroom he would be getting.
I can assure you the boutique ATF's don't only contain PAO. They also contain expensive complex POE esters which when mixed with PAO, offer -60F PP's, low volativity, low varnish deposits, additional cleanliness, higher temp operation before oxidation, etc.
I can take a 4.5 cSt GroupIII base oil and add one of the PI packages, a few other goodies, and make you a DexVI that will pass all of GM's performance specifications.
But there are some of us out here to want to surpass those performance specs.
If the owner is towing a trailer through Death Valley at noon he would be better off with some auxiliary cooling whether he used D6 or a licensed Dexron VI.
He might also consider moving to Red Line D4 or even High-Temp ATF.
It is my impression that GM's GMN 10060 raises the bar high enough that buying a premium ATF will be money wasted for most drivers.
One has to determine for himself as to whether buying a slightly more expensive fluid is worth the extra headroom he would be getting.
I can assure you the boutique ATF's don't only contain PAO. They also contain expensive complex POE esters which when mixed with PAO, offer -60F PP's, low volativity, low varnish deposits, additional cleanliness, higher temp operation before oxidation, etc.
I can take a 4.5 cSt GroupIII base oil and add one of the PI packages, a few other goodies, and make you a DexVI that will pass all of GM's performance specifications.
But there are some of us out here to want to surpass those performance specs.
Last edited:
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
I have assumed that Redline and Neo oils are an ester based products.....
This is what distinguishes them from others in the racing field!
And you would be correct.
I have assumed that Redline and Neo oils are an ester based products.....
This is what distinguishes them from others in the racing field!
And you would be correct.
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
Guess they're all not full syn.....so much for the Phi Beta Kappas.
Petro-Canada Dexron-VI up here also claims only to be a blend. Personally, I haven't sought any full synthetic Dex VI. It's just specified as the PSF for my G, and I'm not going to get that worried about it.
Guess they're all not full syn.....so much for the Phi Beta Kappas.
Petro-Canada Dexron-VI up here also claims only to be a blend. Personally, I haven't sought any full synthetic Dex VI. It's just specified as the PSF for my G, and I'm not going to get that worried about it.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I can take a 4.5 cSt GroupIII base oil and add one of the PI packages, a few other goodies, and make you a DexVI that will pass all of GM's performance specifications.
But there are some of us out here to want to surpass those performance specs.
Red Line is currently selling for around $11 a quart. Licensed Dexron VI runs in the range of $6-8. If the Dexron VI transmission doesn't varnish, wear, or otherwise excessively for 100k, the surpassing is on paper only.
There is a bona-fide performance advantage of Red Line D4 over an average Dexron III, but that same advantage doesn't exist with D6 versus VI.
I can take a 4.5 cSt GroupIII base oil and add one of the PI packages, a few other goodies, and make you a DexVI that will pass all of GM's performance specifications.
But there are some of us out here to want to surpass those performance specs.
Red Line is currently selling for around $11 a quart. Licensed Dexron VI runs in the range of $6-8. If the Dexron VI transmission doesn't varnish, wear, or otherwise excessively for 100k, the surpassing is on paper only.
There is a bona-fide performance advantage of Red Line D4 over an average Dexron III, but that same advantage doesn't exist with D6 versus VI.
MolaKule
Staff member
Here is some additional info on DexronVI since this topic seems to pop up more often:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3014880#Post3014880
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3014880#Post3014880
I found very interesting the part regarding "synthetic blend" dex VI. It does not mean a blend of conventional/synthetic. But it means a blend of group III, IV, or V.
With this being true, these company marketing departments sure are selling the different branded Dexron VI's short. Everybody is assuming "blend" means something different than reality.
Valvoline's marketing department is one of the smart ones here: marketing (blue bottle Dex VI) as a synthetic. My guess would be comsumers are buying this product over the "blend" Dex VI's because of the wrong perceptions!
This is not the first instance of the marketing departments not fully disclosing the capabilities of the product, and probably won't be the last.
Once again thanks for the insight! Mike
With this being true, these company marketing departments sure are selling the different branded Dexron VI's short. Everybody is assuming "blend" means something different than reality.
Valvoline's marketing department is one of the smart ones here: marketing (blue bottle Dex VI) as a synthetic. My guess would be comsumers are buying this product over the "blend" Dex VI's because of the wrong perceptions!
This is not the first instance of the marketing departments not fully disclosing the capabilities of the product, and probably won't be the last.
Once again thanks for the insight! Mike
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
If the owner is towing a trailer through Death Valley at noon he would be better off with some auxiliary cooling whether he used D6 or a licensed Dexron VI.
He might also consider moving to Red Line D4 or even High-Temp ATF.
It is my impression that GM's GMN 10060 raises the bar high enough that buying a premium ATF will be money wasted for most drivers.
One has to determine for himself as to whether buying a slightly more expensive fluid is worth the extra headroom he would be getting.
I can assure you the boutique ATF's don't only contain PAO. They also contain expensive complex POE esters which when mixed with PAO, offer -60F PP's, low volativity, low varnish deposits, additional cleanliness, higher temp operation before oxidation, etc.
I can take a 4.5 cSt GroupIII base oil and add one of the PI packages, a few other goodies, and make you a DexVI that will pass all of GM's performance specifications.
But there are some of us out here to want to surpass those performance specs.
In your opinion which DexVI boutique brands would surpass those performance specs?
Quote:
If the owner is towing a trailer through Death Valley at noon he would be better off with some auxiliary cooling whether he used D6 or a licensed Dexron VI.
He might also consider moving to Red Line D4 or even High-Temp ATF.
It is my impression that GM's GMN 10060 raises the bar high enough that buying a premium ATF will be money wasted for most drivers.
One has to determine for himself as to whether buying a slightly more expensive fluid is worth the extra headroom he would be getting.
I can assure you the boutique ATF's don't only contain PAO. They also contain expensive complex POE esters which when mixed with PAO, offer -60F PP's, low volativity, low varnish deposits, additional cleanliness, higher temp operation before oxidation, etc.
I can take a 4.5 cSt GroupIII base oil and add one of the PI packages, a few other goodies, and make you a DexVI that will pass all of GM's performance specifications.
But there are some of us out here to want to surpass those performance specs.
In your opinion which DexVI boutique brands would surpass those performance specs?
Originally Posted By: caravanmike
I found very interesting the part regarding "synthetic blend" dex VI. It does not mean a blend of conventional/synthetic. But it means a blend of group III, IV, or V.
With this being true, these company marketing departments sure are selling the different branded Dexron VI's short. Everybody is assuming "blend" means something different than reality.
Valvoline's marketing department is one of the smart ones here: marketing (blue bottle Dex VI) as a synthetic. My guess would be comsumers are buying this product over the "blend" Dex VI's because of the wrong perceptions!
This is not the first instance of the marketing departments not fully disclosing the capabilities of the product, and probably won't be the last.
Once again thanks for the insight! Mike
So what's the bottom line here, are the syns really synthetic? Why would they advertise as blends if they are really synthetic, I'm not understanding this logic, where is the deception? As far as answering the "best of" question, certification or not, do the group IVs or Vs offer more protection for those willing to pay the price (I'm going with Super Tech)? Are the advertised Synthetics deceiving us or are they the same or very similar product as the blends? A lot of us here (me) just want to get to the bottom of this so that we can determine which product and at what price, is the best for our needs.....
I found very interesting the part regarding "synthetic blend" dex VI. It does not mean a blend of conventional/synthetic. But it means a blend of group III, IV, or V.
With this being true, these company marketing departments sure are selling the different branded Dexron VI's short. Everybody is assuming "blend" means something different than reality.
Valvoline's marketing department is one of the smart ones here: marketing (blue bottle Dex VI) as a synthetic. My guess would be comsumers are buying this product over the "blend" Dex VI's because of the wrong perceptions!
This is not the first instance of the marketing departments not fully disclosing the capabilities of the product, and probably won't be the last.
Once again thanks for the insight! Mike
So what's the bottom line here, are the syns really synthetic? Why would they advertise as blends if they are really synthetic, I'm not understanding this logic, where is the deception? As far as answering the "best of" question, certification or not, do the group IVs or Vs offer more protection for those willing to pay the price (I'm going with Super Tech)? Are the advertised Synthetics deceiving us or are they the same or very similar product as the blends? A lot of us here (me) just want to get to the bottom of this so that we can determine which product and at what price, is the best for our needs.....
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
Why would they advertise as blends if they are really synthetic, I'm not understanding this logic, where is the deception?
In the case of Dexron VI only: the (company's) meaning of blend is apparently a blend of different synthetic base stocks ( III, IV, and V). The public's perception of a blend is a blend of conventional/synthetic base stocks. I don't believe their is any intent to mislead on the behalf of the companies. But their seems to be a disconnect with what the product actually is, and what the public perception of the product is based on the word "blend" on some of the Dexron VI bottles.
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
Are the advertised Synthetics deceiving us or are they the same or very similar product as the blends? A lot of us here (me) just want to get to the bottom of this so that we can determine which product and at what price, is the best for our needs.....
well it seems that at the very least dexron VI is made from Group III base stock. And it seems some company's also provide a higher quality base stock or a higher quality "blend" of base stocks. but is it hard to tell which on the shelf products are better than others do to vague marketing tactics on bottles.
i would not worry about your super tech choice one bit! sounds like it is at the least group III base Stock. Mike
Why would they advertise as blends if they are really synthetic, I'm not understanding this logic, where is the deception?
In the case of Dexron VI only: the (company's) meaning of blend is apparently a blend of different synthetic base stocks ( III, IV, and V). The public's perception of a blend is a blend of conventional/synthetic base stocks. I don't believe their is any intent to mislead on the behalf of the companies. But their seems to be a disconnect with what the product actually is, and what the public perception of the product is based on the word "blend" on some of the Dexron VI bottles.
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
Are the advertised Synthetics deceiving us or are they the same or very similar product as the blends? A lot of us here (me) just want to get to the bottom of this so that we can determine which product and at what price, is the best for our needs.....
well it seems that at the very least dexron VI is made from Group III base stock. And it seems some company's also provide a higher quality base stock or a higher quality "blend" of base stocks. but is it hard to tell which on the shelf products are better than others do to vague marketing tactics on bottles.
i would not worry about your super tech choice one bit! sounds like it is at the least group III base Stock. Mike
Last edited:
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
I found very interesting the part regarding "synthetic blend" dex VI. It does not mean a blend of conventional/synthetic. But it means a blend of group III, IV, or V.
Advertising is what it is. Some manf. may consider all three base oil types as synthetic but I don't. I am a "purist" holdout if you will.
The "blend" I am referring to is from a formulator's standpoint as to what the base oils are or could be.
But I can say that when it is a blend of the three base oils, the quality and performance are still significant.
Personally, I prefer the term "semi-synthetic" but even that one has it's connotaions and doesn't sound as "Techy" as synthetic.
I found very interesting the part regarding "synthetic blend" dex VI. It does not mean a blend of conventional/synthetic. But it means a blend of group III, IV, or V.
Advertising is what it is. Some manf. may consider all three base oil types as synthetic but I don't. I am a "purist" holdout if you will.
The "blend" I am referring to is from a formulator's standpoint as to what the base oils are or could be.
But I can say that when it is a blend of the three base oils, the quality and performance are still significant.
Personally, I prefer the term "semi-synthetic" but even that one has it's connotaions and doesn't sound as "Techy" as synthetic.
The whole confusion here is due to what in my view was a poor ruling in allowing group III stocks to be described as synthetic.
Now the word synthetic is just a marketing game.
Almost all DEXRON-VI fluids are group-III but some vendors describe them as synthetic and others do not. The result is that the consumer has no idea what they are purchasing.
I personally think that synthetic should be confined to PAO/ester formulations.
Now the word synthetic is just a marketing game.
Almost all DEXRON-VI fluids are group-III but some vendors describe them as synthetic and others do not. The result is that the consumer has no idea what they are purchasing.
I personally think that synthetic should be confined to PAO/ester formulations.
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