Grit in Auto-RX rinse oil

[peterr]

I just pulled the oil from the 1st Auto-RX Rinse cycle of the >100K mile program on my recently acquired Winter car which has about 145K Miles. I was struck by how dirty the oil looked and a fair amount of grit and thicker sludgy stuff settled out.

The grit surprised me, although the previous cars I auto-rxed were much cleaner to begin with. It is not crystals of ARX or anything. It looks like sand sucked in. What am I looking at here?

Anyhow to run the second clean cycle i had two litres of Castrol GTX 5w30 (the recommended grade for this 1994 Mazda MX-3 with the 1.8L V6) and I mixed that with 2 litres of Castrol GTX 5w20 and the 9 ounces of ARX.

I have heard some people suggest that all 5w20 SM oils MUST be semi syn. I doubt this, (especially in Castrol GTX, since presumably they would label anything above Group II as Syn) but am I potentially impeding my AutoRXing if I have it mixed in 50/50 in my clean and rinse?

My post on my current mixing:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=014307

 

[Turk]

Hey - This is the same thing I see in the bottom of my drain pan on most all vehicles. Looks like sand, and I started a thread on this...

The best description I got, and a person posted pictures of it in a pan, was Carbon particles.

Someone should do a SEM Analysis to prove it one way or another.

 

[Turk]

Yepper peterr, that be mine.

I have a K&N too (?). I've seen this in older vehicles too. It's not from sand being knocked off, watched that carefully.

Either sand getting in the engine somehow or carbon particles.

Next time, I'll take some, crush the buggers and get some sand and put them in bags and look at them under a high power scope !!!

 

[m2200b]

I got the black grit in my drain pan on my second ARX of a Mazda B2200 motor. I got more pep which I assumed was ring pack cleaning without as much black sand -the grit- on the first ARX. I'm glad I did the 2x ARX regime since I figured I got my money's worth on the the first ARX and only did the second as I had enough from doing an ARX on another car to treat the B2200 again.

 

[peterr]

This post?
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=013985;p=1#000022

Interesting. The carbon idea makes some sense in explaining my constellation of symptoms.

My first thought was air filter infiltration (I have a K&N) but I would wonder how it could get through intact.

I thought it had to be something specific to this engine, since oil changes on other cars in the same garage have not exhibited this. If the source was environmental ( dirt from the bootom of the car, knocked loose or wind blown stuff etc) I would have expected to see this before. eg I removed the oil drain pan before dropping the car, opening a door, closing the hood, etc. As a matter of fact, the oil poured out of this in 2 minutes, and I have had oil changes where I let it drain for 8 hours, offering more opportunity to get contaminated.

 

[BrianWC]

I had the shiny carbon particles but I also have a turbo, so I suspect coking was the culprit. BTW, arx isn't in the form of crystals.

 

[peterr]

quote:

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Originally posted by BrianWC:
I had the shiny carbon particles but I also have a turbo, so I suspect coking was the culprit. BTW, arx isn't in the form of crystals.

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I probably should have been more explicit, but historically a number of posters have mentioned being freaked out by seeing "crystals" or "granules" or other descriptions of particles seen either when pouring Auto-RX in or when looking at results in filter elements. eg in this thread
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000379#000016

Frank explained:
"there are no such thing as "Clumps" in Auto-Rx, wax crystals are part of formula. They melt in your thumb and forefinger if you gently roll your fingers together. These wax crystals melt in your oil and the ones that are not used in cleaning will go to your filter. "

I was just trying to indicate that I was not reporting this. I have done Auto-RX treatments on 3 other cars and while I have seen it suspend all sorts of gooey blackness in relatively young oil I have never seen hard particles of any kind in the oil. Even in my Turbo, although that was a scrupulously cared for car before I bought it. (and hopefully since)

The "carbon from stuck rings" suggestion seems to make the most sense to me

 

[BrianWC]

Well, I got my latest used saab w/ 59k miles and there was evidence of coking. I got plenty of that in my filters after arx-ing.

Arx is a mixture of esters. It should not remain in any wax crystal shape long enough to stay in the filter any length of time. I don't know what that's about.

But I know what you are saying. Here's the stuff I am talking about. Recent Saabs have had trouble w/ this for the standard reason: longer OCIs plus increased blowby by design as well as a complicated PCV system.

 

[BlazerLT]

I had that in my filter too.

Completely normal. Better out than in.

 

[peterr]

yep, that's the stuff.

I just had not seen it in previous cars I auto-rxed, even those with 150,000 miles or a turbo. Although those cars were 150K and turbo cars that had been meticulously maintained. The car I am ARXing now was not.

EDIT: I should have said that I did see some of this the one time I cut open a filter, but I have not previously seen this in the oil itself, or in this quantity.

When I was draining the oil, i was thinking "I wonder if i need the second cycle" but after draining the oil and seeing the blackness, sludge and grit I eagerly dumped in another bottle with the fresh oil for the full >100K mile treatment.

 

[Shaman]

That's the stuff that I am scared of dislodging.

 

[BlazerLT]

quote:

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Originally posted by Shaman:
That's the stuff that I am scared of dislodging.

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That's the point of doing an Auto-RX treatment, get is dislodged and out of the engine.

 

[BrianWC]

Yeah, that stuff you see came out of the filter. However, I've gotten it over 3 filters now! The arx (especially when I used an HDEO on the second treatment) seemed to dislodge a lot. I'm thinking about trying LC if I get even more in this next filter.

I don't know what type of turbo car you had, but the 9-5 lpt uses a small Garrett for quick spool. Also, the oil cooler thermo temp got increased. This has led to a lot of failures of turbos. The bigger Mitsu turbos on the Aero seem immune. If my turbo fails, I'm going to see about either transplanting in the one off my '97 900 (if that'll work) or upgrading to the mitsu.

 

[Rich21]

I am in agreement with Blazer LT. I would also say that a good motor cleaning was desireable long before. ARX dismantles the coked deposits very slowly, minimizing the potential of large deposits breaking free and causing alot of damage, which would likely be the case if you let them continue to build. ARX does more than clean, it supplements the oil film to retard wear during the cleaning process. As far as turbos, sure they will coke up oil quicker, but thats not to say a non-turbo won't coke up oil of any type where maintenance has been slack.

 

[peterr]

quote:

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Originally posted by BrianWC:
The arx (especially when I used an HDEO on the second treatment) seemed to dislodge a lot. I'm thinking about trying LC if I get even more in this next filter.

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Seems like am on the same page. I am going to run a mix of 15w40 HDEO and 5w20 in the Auto-RX rinse #2. I will run LC20 in the car after my 2nd AutoRX cycle. I already run LC20 in my turbo.

quote:

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I don't know what type of turbo car you had, but the 9-5 lpt uses a small Garrett for quick spool.

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Mine is a KKK K26-6, stock in a 1988 Porsche 944 Turbo. I wouldn't think of it as a big Turbo.

 

[BrianWC]

Well, I changed my filter and oil tonight and got the most gunk yet, I believe. I refilled w/ straight Pennzoil Platinum 5W30. I am going to get the LC soon, if I can remember.

 

[Shaman]

quote:

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Originally posted by BlazerLT:

quote:

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Originally posted by Shaman:
That's the stuff that I am scared of dislodging.

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That's the point of doing an Auto-RX treatment, get is dislodged and out of the engine.

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As long as it safely travels directly to the oil filter and not through any place that 70 micron particles can cause problems, like bearings, and all that other stuff.