Just got got back from WalMart and picked up 3 quarts of Super Tech Dexron VI (all the stores by me are out of it). After reading posts about how their product is the real, licensed, Dex VI I decided to go with that, they have the best price too. Then I saw that Valvoline advertises their Dex VI as Fully Synthetic, even M1 ATF is not rated VI?? So is there a difference or is it like brake fluid where it's all synthetic? I thought VI was a blend...
Dex VI Synthetic VS Non Synthetic
- Thread starter Quadrasteer
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In order to meet GM's spec for Dex-VI the base oil needs to be a syn blend or better.
Dexron VI can be a blend, as the original factory fill AC Delco is, or it can be full synthetic.
The full synthetic Dexron VI ATF's I know of are
-Mag 1
-Valvoline/Napa
-Amalie/Wolf's Head
-Redline D6
-Peak
The Dexron VI that I know to be blends
-Castrol
-Pennzoil
-Mobil
-Supertech
-AC Delco (OE FF)
-most store brands are most likely blends as well
Note that the Mag 1 seems to bet he best deal: $5 per quart for a full synthetic.
The full synthetic Dexron VI ATF's I know of are
-Mag 1
-Valvoline/Napa
-Amalie/Wolf's Head
-Redline D6
-Peak
The Dexron VI that I know to be blends
-Castrol
-Pennzoil
-Mobil
-Supertech
-AC Delco (OE FF)
-most store brands are most likely blends as well
Note that the Mag 1 seems to bet he best deal: $5 per quart for a full synthetic.
Thanks,the M1 is almost the same price as the non.
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
Just got got back from WalMart and picked up 3 quarts of Super Tech Dexron VI (all the stores by me are out of it). After reading posts about how their product is the real, licensed, Dex VI I decided to go with that, they have the best price too. Then I saw that Valvoline advertises their Dex VI as Fully Synthetic, even M1 ATF is not rated VI?? So is there a difference or is it like brake fluid where it's all synthetic? I thought VI was a blend...
The reason Mobil 1 is not Dexron VI has to do with viscosity, not base stock.
Dexron VI is a thinner ATF than the more common ATFs to increase gas mileage on GM vehicles. The Dexron VI spec calls for a maximum of 6.4 cSt at 100°C, while Dexron III called for 7.5 cSt. GM then spec'd a lower allowed viscosity loss during use to 5.5 cSt, which is the same as the previous III spec. The easiest way to reduce viscosity loss from shearing in use is to use a high quality base stock, but I don't believe that GM specifies a synthetic.
Just got got back from WalMart and picked up 3 quarts of Super Tech Dexron VI (all the stores by me are out of it). After reading posts about how their product is the real, licensed, Dex VI I decided to go with that, they have the best price too. Then I saw that Valvoline advertises their Dex VI as Fully Synthetic, even M1 ATF is not rated VI?? So is there a difference or is it like brake fluid where it's all synthetic? I thought VI was a blend...
The reason Mobil 1 is not Dexron VI has to do with viscosity, not base stock.
Dexron VI is a thinner ATF than the more common ATFs to increase gas mileage on GM vehicles. The Dexron VI spec calls for a maximum of 6.4 cSt at 100°C, while Dexron III called for 7.5 cSt. GM then spec'd a lower allowed viscosity loss during use to 5.5 cSt, which is the same as the previous III spec. The easiest way to reduce viscosity loss from shearing in use is to use a high quality base stock, but I don't believe that GM specifies a synthetic.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
The reason Mobil 1 is not Dexron VI has to do with viscosity, not base stock.
Dexron VI is a thinner ATF than the more common ATFs to increase gas mileage on GM vehicles. The Dexron VI spec calls for a maximum of 6.4 cSt at 100°C, while Dexron III called for 7.5 cSt. GM then spec'd a lower allowed viscosity loss during use to 5.5 cSt, which is the same as the previous III spec. The easiest way to reduce viscosity loss from shearing in use is to use a high quality base stock, but I don't believe that GM specifies a synthetic.
It is a bit more than than just viscosimetrics. The DexronVI formulation has to have an additive package and base oil combination to prolong shear resistance and oxidation resistance.
In addition, the FM package has an improved FM to retain friction characteristics longer than previous formulations.
BTW, Mobil does make a DexronVI
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Dexron-VI_ATF.aspx
The reason Mobil 1 is not Dexron VI has to do with viscosity, not base stock.
Dexron VI is a thinner ATF than the more common ATFs to increase gas mileage on GM vehicles. The Dexron VI spec calls for a maximum of 6.4 cSt at 100°C, while Dexron III called for 7.5 cSt. GM then spec'd a lower allowed viscosity loss during use to 5.5 cSt, which is the same as the previous III spec. The easiest way to reduce viscosity loss from shearing in use is to use a high quality base stock, but I don't believe that GM specifies a synthetic.
It is a bit more than than just viscosimetrics. The DexronVI formulation has to have an additive package and base oil combination to prolong shear resistance and oxidation resistance.
In addition, the FM package has an improved FM to retain friction characteristics longer than previous formulations.
BTW, Mobil does make a DexronVI
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Dexron-VI_ATF.aspx
Originally Posted By: pbm
Would it be safe to assume that the Redline D6 is superior to the other synthetic DexVI's?
Why?
All Dexron VI products have to meet the same requirements, which are quite specific and rigorous, so all the trains should arrive at the station at the same time.
Would it be safe to assume that the Redline D6 is superior to the other synthetic DexVI's?
Why?
All Dexron VI products have to meet the same requirements, which are quite specific and rigorous, so all the trains should arrive at the station at the same time.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: pbm
Would it be safe to assume that the Redline D6 is superior to the other synthetic DexVI's?
Just my HO, but I do think the Redline D6 has a better base oil package than anything else on the market.
Now the PI additive package, which is supplied by a major additive company, meets the same specs as any other DexVI.
Would it be safe to assume that the Redline D6 is superior to the other synthetic DexVI's?
Just my HO, but I do think the Redline D6 has a better base oil package than anything else on the market.
Now the PI additive package, which is supplied by a major additive company, meets the same specs as any other DexVI.
Is it safe to assume that an additive package that is designed for a rather non-polar base oil will provide the expected performance in an ester-based oil? It may just be my ignorance, but it seems that it may be difficult to have an additive package that would have the same performance regardless of base oils. I am assuming that RedLine's D6 is ester based and that the additive package was designed for a Group III blend.
Last time I did the fluid on my century I got all 13 qts of supertech dex 6 they had on the shelves. Man its a good price.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Is it safe to assume that an additive package that is designed for a rather non-polar base oil will provide the expected performance in an ester-based oil? It may just be my ignorance, but it seems that it may be difficult to have an additive package that would have the same performance regardless of base oils. I am assuming that RedLine's D6 is ester based and that the additive package was designed for a Group III blend.
Recall that the DexronVI spec is a performance based specification and not a chemistry based spec. For DexVI, the base oil must be at least a GroupIII to meet the oxidation spec.
It turns out the base oil used has little effect on the Friction modifier chemistry group required in terms of the proper static/dynamic friction response for bands and clutch packs.
But the additive package for a specific base oil combo is tweaked slightly for additive solubility.
Is it safe to assume that an additive package that is designed for a rather non-polar base oil will provide the expected performance in an ester-based oil? It may just be my ignorance, but it seems that it may be difficult to have an additive package that would have the same performance regardless of base oils. I am assuming that RedLine's D6 is ester based and that the additive package was designed for a Group III blend.
Recall that the DexronVI spec is a performance based specification and not a chemistry based spec. For DexVI, the base oil must be at least a GroupIII to meet the oxidation spec.
It turns out the base oil used has little effect on the Friction modifier chemistry group required in terms of the proper static/dynamic friction response for bands and clutch packs.
But the additive package for a specific base oil combo is tweaked slightly for additive solubility.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Just my HO, but I do think the Redline D6 has a better base oil package than anything else on the market.
Now the PI additive package, which is supplied by a major additive company, meets the same specs as any other DexVI.
If every licensed Dexron VI meets the same demanding viscosity, oxdidation, shear resistance, longevity (150k miles), and frictional characteristics requirements, and Red Line is using the same PI additive as one of the approved licensees:
GM Dexron VI licenses
in what way would the user expect the better base oil package to exhibit itself in use?
Just my HO, but I do think the Redline D6 has a better base oil package than anything else on the market.
Now the PI additive package, which is supplied by a major additive company, meets the same specs as any other DexVI.
If every licensed Dexron VI meets the same demanding viscosity, oxdidation, shear resistance, longevity (150k miles), and frictional characteristics requirements, and Red Line is using the same PI additive as one of the approved licensees:
GM Dexron VI licenses
in what way would the user expect the better base oil package to exhibit itself in use?
Originally Posted By: GMorg
Is it safe to assume that an additive package that is designed for a rather non-polar base oil will provide the expected performance in an ester-based oil? It may just be my ignorance, but it seems that it may be difficult to have an additive package that would have the same performance regardless of base oils. I am assuming that RedLine's D6 is ester based and that the additive package was designed for a Group III blend.
Red Line does not claim that their ATFs have an ester base
Red Line ATFs
After forty years of the industry using a variety of base stocks in motor oils and ATFs, achieving the right blend of stocks and additives is well within the state of the art.
Is it safe to assume that an additive package that is designed for a rather non-polar base oil will provide the expected performance in an ester-based oil? It may just be my ignorance, but it seems that it may be difficult to have an additive package that would have the same performance regardless of base oils. I am assuming that RedLine's D6 is ester based and that the additive package was designed for a Group III blend.
Red Line does not claim that their ATFs have an ester base
Red Line ATFs
After forty years of the industry using a variety of base stocks in motor oils and ATFs, achieving the right blend of stocks and additives is well within the state of the art.
Wilhelm_D wrote:"Red Line does not claim that their ATFs have an ester base"
However, Red Line D6 does claim to have a pour point of -60C (-76F) with a flash point of 249C (480F). These values seem sort of "estery". Clearly NOT proof of ester base, but suggestive, it seems to me.
However, Red Line D6 does claim to have a pour point of -60C (-76F) with a flash point of 249C (480F). These values seem sort of "estery". Clearly NOT proof of ester base, but suggestive, it seems to me.
The MAG 1 say full synthetic on their site but why not on the bottle, maybe it's on the back?? The other products say it on the front, just wondering...
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
The MAG 1 say full synthetic on their site but why not on the bottle, maybe it's on the back?? The other products say it on the front, just wondering...
Well here's the deal, the Mag 1 VI (Warren Distribution), according to their tech line, is the same product as the Super Tech & both are full synthetic. They are going through a bottle change right now and the new MAG 1 will say it on the bottle. He said that the Super Tech is the same exact product, don't know why they wouldn't put it on both of the bottles. Whatever.....
The MAG 1 say full synthetic on their site but why not on the bottle, maybe it's on the back?? The other products say it on the front, just wondering...
Well here's the deal, the Mag 1 VI (Warren Distribution), according to their tech line, is the same product as the Super Tech & both are full synthetic. They are going through a bottle change right now and the new MAG 1 will say it on the bottle. He said that the Super Tech is the same exact product, don't know why they wouldn't put it on both of the bottles. Whatever.....
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
The MAG 1 say full synthetic on their site but why not on the bottle, maybe it's on the back?? The other products say it on the front, just wondering...
He said that the Super Tech is the same exact product, don't know why they wouldn't put it on both of the bottles. Whatever.....
well according to molakule "For DexVI, the base oil must be at least a GroupIII to meet the oxidation spec."
with this being assumed true they don't need to put it on the bottle because all dex VI is synthetic (if you consider group III synthetic). so if you frequent the atf forum at bitog you know more about dex VI and don't need to read the marketing hype on the bottle!
so does that mean their is no such thing as a semi-synthetic dex VI?
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
The MAG 1 say full synthetic on their site but why not on the bottle, maybe it's on the back?? The other products say it on the front, just wondering...
He said that the Super Tech is the same exact product, don't know why they wouldn't put it on both of the bottles. Whatever.....
well according to molakule "For DexVI, the base oil must be at least a GroupIII to meet the oxidation spec."
with this being assumed true they don't need to put it on the bottle because all dex VI is synthetic (if you consider group III synthetic). so if you frequent the atf forum at bitog you know more about dex VI and don't need to read the marketing hype on the bottle!
so does that mean their is no such thing as a semi-synthetic dex VI?
Originally Posted By: caravanmike
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
The MAG 1 say full synthetic on their site but why not on the bottle, maybe it's on the back?? The other products say it on the front, just wondering...
He said that the Super Tech is the same exact product, don't know why they wouldn't put it on both of the bottles. Whatever.....
well according to molakule "For DexVI, the base oil must be at least a GroupIII to meet the oxidation spec."
with this being assumed true they don't need to put it on the bottle because all dex VI is synthetic (if you consider group III synthetic). so if you frequent the atf forum at bitog you know more about dex VI and don't need to read the marketing hype on the bottle!
so does that mean their is no such thing as a semi-synthetic dex VI?
The tech also said that all V1's were synthetic, of course in my infinite knowledge gathered from this site, I told him they were not! Guess I might be wrong(first time)HAHA! So then what is the reason they don't put it on the containers, they could advertise that it's a better product and charge more money, something seems wrong. Maybe there is an ingredient that does not allow it to be called "full" synthetic.....
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
Originally Posted By: Quadrasteer
The MAG 1 say full synthetic on their site but why not on the bottle, maybe it's on the back?? The other products say it on the front, just wondering...
He said that the Super Tech is the same exact product, don't know why they wouldn't put it on both of the bottles. Whatever.....
well according to molakule "For DexVI, the base oil must be at least a GroupIII to meet the oxidation spec."
with this being assumed true they don't need to put it on the bottle because all dex VI is synthetic (if you consider group III synthetic). so if you frequent the atf forum at bitog you know more about dex VI and don't need to read the marketing hype on the bottle!
so does that mean their is no such thing as a semi-synthetic dex VI?
The tech also said that all V1's were synthetic, of course in my infinite knowledge gathered from this site, I told him they were not! Guess I might be wrong(first time)HAHA! So then what is the reason they don't put it on the containers, they could advertise that it's a better product and charge more money, something seems wrong. Maybe there is an ingredient that does not allow it to be called "full" synthetic.....
Just looked at a Castrol V1 bottle, it says "Synthetic Blend"...
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