Honda 15400-PLM-A02 oil filter now made in USA

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
If a tech does the required oil filter check as you stated, how does he check inside the filter, the media itself to see if it is too dirty, clogged, or torn in any way? Someone please answer that Q?

The same way you do on your vehicle right now. Your oil filter could have a massively torn media inside, right now, and its efficiency could be zero. And you have no idea.

Is that likely? Not really. But you certainly have the option of replacing your filter every 1,000 miles if you like, just to be safe. We all will have different lines in the sand that represent our comfort zone. There's no rule that says that you *must* replace an oil filter during an oil change. There's no rule that says that you *cannot* replace an oil filter outside of an oil change. It's simply convenience that the filter is changed at the same time as the oil.

You could run your oil 5,000 miles, and your oil filter 2,500 miles, and use two filters for each oil change, right? You could also run your oil 2,500 miles, and your oil filter 5,000 miles, and use one filter every two oil changes, right? Lots of ways to skin a cat.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
If a tech does the required oil filter check as you stated, how does he check inside the filter, the media itself to see if it is too dirty, clogged, or torn in any way? Someone please answer that Q?

The same way you do on your vehicle right now. Your oil filter could have a massively torn media inside, right now, and its efficiency could be zero. And you have no idea.

Is that likely? Not really. But you certainly have the option of replacing your filter every 1,000 miles if you like, just to be safe. We all will have different lines in the sand that represent our comfort zone. There's no rule that says that you *must* replace an oil filter during an oil change. There's no rule that says that you *cannot* replace an oil filter outside of an oil change. It's simply convenience that the filter is changed at the same time as the oil.

You could run your oil 5,000 miles, and your oil filter 2,500 miles, and use two filters for each oil change, right? You could also run your oil 2,500 miles, and your oil filter 5,000 miles, and use one filter every two oil changes, right? Lots of ways to skin a cat.

Please, skin that cat for me! Show me proof. You people seem to be smarter than me. Show me the proof. Is that too much to ask? Where is it shown that an oil filter is good for multiple OCIs?
BTW, your theories seem logical. But, have you ever thought those Honda techs might have capes under their shirts, with a huge "S" on them?

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

The runner is "those of you" that use an oil filter for multiple OCIs. IBM (guy on the screen) is the old way of thinking, as you say, of replacing an oil filter every OCI. The audience is the consumer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I&feature=player_embedded

Oh, and the cops are the Oil Filter Police!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Then I asked her if she could give me Honda's engine engineering dept. so I could ask them this Q? She stated, "It would then be the service advisor/mgr. you need to ask this Q? to. We have "NO" engine engineer dept. that can answer your Q?'s."

W T H ! I smell a HUGE rat!


The engine engineering department is in Japan. You were talking to a Honda Rep in the US. Order this, then call Japan.

http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-japanese

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
As I stated in another thread, "It's just an oil filter, not a nuclear reactor."

re: your conversation with Honda: Dude, don't you realise that people on tech lines are generally the LEAST knowledgeable about the product? All they do is read from a scripted playbook with flow charts. Most of them don't even understand what they are reading.

And to the poster who wrote about how wonderful Honda's engineers are, are you talking about the same engineers who designed the Odyssey engine that deactivates the same entire bank of cylinders every time and causes the head to sludge up and wear out the cams? How hard would it have been to have the system alternate banks?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

Like I am really to believe it's a techs call to replace the filter or not, and if it's questioned, it's the service mgr. who makes the decision. I wasn't born yesterday!

Oh, and she stated, "It is nowhere written, nor recommended, in ANY Honda Owners manual to use an oil filter for multiple OCIs."
This stinks to HIGH HEAVEN!


She obviously has never read the owner's manual. When she talked about "the tech deciding if the filter needs to be changed", she was probably referring to the tech seeing if the A/B indicator was showing to replace the filter or not. If someone always gets their Honda serviced at the Honda dealer, then the tech would know and reset the indicator so he knew when the filter needs changing.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Where is it shown that an oil filter is good for multiple OCIs?


Where is it shown that it's not?

First, I suspect you'll accept nothing less than an ISO-qualified study of this, so the fact that I myself am running one filter for multiple OCIs probably won't mean much to you. Yes, I am running the PSL14610 for two OCIs on the Acura (which will be 10,000 miles).

Again, it goes both ways. You are the one challenging Honda's recommendation that the oil filter is good for two OCIs. So bring the proof that they're NOT good for Honda's recommendation. I expect nothing less than an ISO-qualified study, by the way.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I agree, she had no clue!
If a tech does the required oil filter check as you stated, how does he check inside the filter, the media itself to see if it is too dirty, clogged, or torn in any way? Someone please answer that Q?

Or, does he just "ASSUMES" the filter is ok, from all his vast training on filters being checked from the outside only?


Again, this is all coming as direction from the engineers who designed the motor. The maintenance schedule and procedure is from the engineers. You do realize the whole world around you is due to engineers, yet you question and want proof that it's all real and exists. Guess we better open up an "oil filter church" so we can all show our faith that all is right in the filter world.

 

[Hokiefyd]

One more thought, Blue Oval. You seem to be honing in on the oil change itself as the absolute indicator of when to change the filter, rather than the miles on the filter. May I ask what your oil change interval is?

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Where is it shown that an oil filter is good for multiple OCIs?


Where is it shown that it's not?

First, I suspect you'll accept nothing less than an ISO-qualified study of this, so the fact that I myself am running one filter for multiple OCIs probably won't mean much to you. Yes, I am running the PSL14610 for two OCIs on the Acura (which will be 10,000 miles).

Again, it goes both ways. You are the one challenging Honda's recommendation that the oil filter is good for two OCIs. So bring the proof that they're NOT good for Honda's recommendation. I expect nothing less than an ISO-qualified study, by the way.

I would almost bet my life that you own a Glock pistol. Anytime someone has something to say about a Glock, the Glocksters have temper tantrums, start crying, need oxygen to breathe, or just pass out from shock.
I see I challenged you (aka; Glock) and you are getting Glock-Nesia.
It will be ok; just get a bag and take deep breathes.

It seems we are at a standoff here. You can't afford to buy a new filter at every OCI, and I do use a new filter at every OCI. Should we go by playground rules? "I said it first, so there. Na na!"

Your turn.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
One more thought, Blue Oval. You seem to be honing in on the oil change itself as the absolute indicator of when to change the filter, rather than the miles on the filter. May I ask what your oil change interval is?

Every 1K miles I change the filter, then again at 3K miles.....

It used to be 3-6K miles. I am currently using PP, so I don't know yet.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Then I asked her if she could give me Honda's engine engineering dept. so I could ask them this Q? She stated, "It would then be the service advisor/mgr. you need to ask this Q? to. We have "NO" engine engineer dept. that can answer your Q?'s."

W T H ! I smell a HUGE rat!


The engine engineering department is in Japan. You were talking to a Honda Rep in the US. Order this, then call Japan.

http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-japanese

You're crazy man.

 

[DuckRyder]

Good lord have mercy, here we go again.

In addition to the information already provided

The Honda Official repair manual for my 2005 Civic Says to replace the engine oil every 10,000 miles and the filter every 20,000 miles on the "normal" schedule.

The Acura owners manual says to replace the engine oil every 7,500 miles and the Filter every 15,000 miles, again on the "normal" schedule.

(that's every other oil change for the math challenged)

However the Civic says to replace the filter at 2 years and the Acura at 1 year.

I'm 99.9% certain that the owners manual for my 1988 CRX Si and 1977 Accord both said every other change, but no longer have those manuals.

So to what end are we "proving" anything and what are we proving? There are a number of folks here who run filters for more than one oil change, has anyone seen a marked increase in insolubles by reusing a filter?

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Good lord have mercy, here we go again.

In addition to the information already provided

The Honda Official repair manual for my 2005 Civic Says to replace the engine oil every 10,000 miles and the filter every 20,000 miles on the "normal" schedule.

The Acura owners manual says to replace the engine oil every 7,500 miles and the Filter every 15,000 miles, again on the "normal" schedule.

(that's every other oil change for the math challenged)

However the Civic says to replace the filter at 2 years and the Acura at 1 year.

I'm 99.9% certain that the owners manual for my 1988 CRX Si and 1977 Accord both said every other change, but no longer have those manuals.

So to what end are we "proving" anything and what are we proving? There are a number of folks here who run filters for more than one oil change, has anyone seen a marked increase in insolubles by reusing a filter?

Do we need to set up a "Help Them Buy A New Oil Filter" fund for those of you that can't afford to use/buy a new filter at each OCI?

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

Do we need to set up a "Help Them Buy A New Oil Filter" fund for those of you that can't afford to use/buy a new filter at each OCI?

No idea, I can afford to buy all of them I want.

Back on topic.

The ADBV in the Ultra appears identical right down to the "Parker". It is substantially thicker than the one from the Canadian A02's and they do not include the 3 "ribs" for lack of a better term.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

Do we need to set up a "Help Them Buy A New Oil Filter" fund for those of you that can't afford to use/buy a new filter at each OCI?

No idea, I can afford to buy all of them I want.

Back on topic.

The ADBV in the Ultra appears identical right down to the "Parker". It is substantially thicker than the one from the Canadian A02's and they do not include the 3 "ribs" for lack of a better term.

Then, it must be having to crawl under the vehicle and removing the filter at every OCI?

Back on topic

If the BCOD is made by FRAM are they using a special made ADBV just for American made Honda engines?

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Here is FRAM's statement on filtering efficiency for the Ultra: To me it essentially means 99% @ 20 microns or larger, meaning it takes out 99% of all particles 20 microns or larger. Greater than 20 microns also means a particle that is 20.1 microns in size.

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Honda does this on purpose, so does Toyota whose filters are about 50% at 20 microns. They both must value flow over efficiency, that or they are worried about filters loading up at higher efficiencies with the longer OCI's they now recommend. Only reasons I can think of anyway but they are both doing it intentionally with their OEM filters.

This is really interesting. Both Honda and Toyota have stellar reputations for engine-longevity, and yet both allow more particulates to remain in the oil stream than some aftermarket-filter makers do. Honda and Toyota's filters are designed to be backwards-compatible with its entire fleet which takes that size of filter, including models like mine, which were always meant to have their filters replaced at each OCI.

My own engine, which has almost 404,000 miles on it, still has oil-pressure sufficient to keep the oil-light off even after highway driving in 100F weather. This means the bearings are still tight enough to keep the pressure above minimum standards. And that's with exclusive use of OE filters for the car's entire life, and with the use of 5W-30 oil.

Given the above, I'm wondering if filtering capacity beyond OE-spec might be overkill. Below a certain size, particles are not harmful to the engine. How many particles do you really get in oil that are above 30 microns in size?

I studied the main-bearing oil-clearances for my engine. I gathered these figures, in thousandths-of-an-inch:
0.8 = 20 microns
1.6 = 40 microns
0.9 to 1.9 = min and max NEW oil-clearance
2.0 to 2.4 = max SERVICE LIMIT oil-clearance, depending on the bearing.

This means that the 40-micron particle is smaller than the usual oil-clearances you are likely to encounter in an engine of my type.

Considering that the cost difference is likely to be minimal between media that is 65% efficient and media that is 99% efficient (and maybe even the same cost for the volumes Honda and Toyota would buy), and considering the reputations that Honda and Toyota need to protect, I'm thinking that there HAS to be some reason other than engine-wear which would explain why OE filters are not made to meet the 99% standard.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Tegger

Given the above, I'm wondering if filtering capacity beyond OE-spec might be overkill. Below a certain size, particles are not harmful to the engine. How many particles do you really get in oil that are above 30 microns in size?

I studied the main-bearing oil-clearances for my engine. I gathered these figures, in thousandths-of-an-inch:
0.8 = 20 microns
1.6 = 40 microns
0.9 to 1.9 = min and max NEW oil-clearance
2.0 to 2.4 = max SERVICE LIMIT oil-clearance, depending on the bearing.

This means that the 40-micron particle is smaller than the usual oil-clearances you are likely to encounter in an engine of my type.


If you search the 'net for studies of "particle size vs engine wear" you will find that it's the particles that are 5~25 micron in size that supposedly do the most damage over time. Since an oil filter can't usually filter very efficiently under 10~15 microns, then doing regular oil changes at an acceptable interval helps "reset" the oil to new condition in terms of collected particulate.

http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbullet...gine%20wear.pdf

http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/070618.pdf

More stuff:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=particle+size+vs+engine+wear

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I would almost bet my life that you own a Glock pistol.


I don't. I do own a Ruger, though. And you actually haven't challenged me at all. You see, I don't write the Honda service interval recommendations. I simply do my best to explain them to others who may not understand the rationale behind them. If you have a problem with Honda's service recommendations, you'll have to speak with a Honda engineer.

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
You can't afford to buy a new filter at every OCI, and I do use a new filter at every OCI.


For someone demanding so much data and evidence from everyone else, you sure do seem to make a lot of (incorrect) assumptions! For your reference, here's my stash of filters at the moment. There are five (5) OEM Honda filters, two (2) Purolator L14610s, and three (3) Purolator PL14610s. That's a total of ten (10) filters. I can use them up as often as I like. I am comfortable with using one every other oil change. You are not. And that's cool. We can disagree without (incorrectly) assuming something about someone else's financial means.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Given the above, I'm wondering if filtering capacity beyond OE-spec might be overkill.


It is.