Amsoil AMO 10-40w, 02 Cummins ISM, 4500 mile/24 mt

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San Antonio,TX
Lab: Oil Analyzers Inc(Polaris Labs)
Vehicle: 2002 Monaco Signature Diesel Pusher Motorhome
Engine: 2002 Cummins ISM w/81,000 miles since new
Oil: Amsoil AMO 10-40w. In place for 4500 miles and 24 mths. No make-up oil added.
Oil Filters: Full Flow position - Fleetguard# LF9080; Bypass - Fleetguard# LF3542, Like the oil, both filters have been in place for 4500 miles and 24 mths.
Air Filter: Ecolite# 546893 in place for 3+ yrs.

Lab Comments: Data indicates no abnormal findings. Resample at normal interval. Oil is suitable for continued use.

Code:


WEAR METALS(ppm)

Iron 6

Chromium 1

Copper 1

Tin 0

Lead 0

Nickel 0

Alum 1

Tin 0

Silver 0

Cadmium 0

Vanadium 0



CONTAMINANT METALS(ppm)

Silicon 3

Sodium 2

Potassium 2



MULTI SOURCE METALS(ppm)

Magne 0

Titan 0

Molybdenum 0

Antim 0

Mang 0

Lith 0

Boron 2



ADDITIVE METALS(ppm)

Magnes 9

Calcium 3785

Barium 0

Phosph 1168

Zinc 1309



CONTAMINANTS

Fuel Dilution < 1%

Soot Vol < .5%

Water < .1%



FLUID PROPERTIES

V100C(cSt) - 13.6

Oxidation(abs/cm) - 49

Nitration(abs/0.1 mm) - 7

TBN(mg KOH/g) - 10.40

The plan is to leave the oil in place for a couple more yrs, but to change the oil filters now.

What do yawl think?
 
Those filters are certainly doing their job / along with the high quality oil from Amsoil.
 
I'd not only leave the Amsoil in there, I'd leave the filters alone for now. And I mean the oil and air filters; all of them.

There is practically no contamination whatsoever. Your silicone, soot, water, etc all point towards a very healthy sump. Why change filters?

Filters actually become more efficient as they age. As the media loads up, it does an ever "better" job at catching particulate.

There is some debate as to the long-term practical limit of a cellulose based media filter, two years is generally not even worthy of disucssion. I'd say 4 years is a minimum limit in that regard. The main concern is the degredation of the media, but there is no real study data that states how old is too old. However, many of us have run against convention and had excellent safe success out to 4 years with "normal" filters. I honestly have no idea what media is in your filters, but even if it is cellulose, it's not at a point that it's compromised yet; that point is still far away.

Could you change filters? Sure. But why? The concept is the same as the OCI extension. You paid for excellet fluid; extend your OCI as nothing is wrong. Same goes for your filters; you have excellent products in place, and they are clearly doing their job. There is zero indication that anything is wrong. Why not get the value out of your system? If you change filters, what do you gain? Do you expect "better" wear or less contamination? You numbers are so solid right now that any shift is more likely due to simple variance and not anything you'd do to the system.

Everything in your UOA points to the continued O/FCI extension. You paid for the data, and it shows everything is in fine shape. Why not follow the data to a logical end?
 
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This is great news for me to know on my 2006 Dodge 3500/Cummins. I installed PCO close on two years ago and now I only drive her in fair weather...She really doesn't see the light of day most times, just sits in my garage all rustproofed, clean, waxed and every piece of rubber I can find hit with silicone lube...I think I have 600 miles on the interval...lol
Thanks for the heads up, and nice UOA
 
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24 months is a long time for synthetic oil to keep soaking the paper element/s even though your only pushing 5K. I personally would change the paper filters out. A stratapore synthetic filter and it's synthetic media or other types would be a better choice in the future just soaking in synthetic oil. Your rig and it's engine is worth quite a bit of money. It would be a shame to see a filter/s colapse over a 100 bucks or under......Change em. My 2 Cents
cool.gif
 
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Cellulose isn't degraded by "soaking" in "synthetic oil". Like most things organic is it attacked by oxygen (oxidation).

Just where are the risk factors in this UOA indicating problems are present, other than your gut feeling?

What studies can you point to that show causation (or even correlation) of Ox to some level of filtration media degradation?

How many filters have you run past two years, and then done autopsy on to review media condition?



I'm not stating emphatically that you're wrong. But I see zero evidence to indicate you're correct. Let's put aside "feelings" and go with facts, shall we?
 
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I agree with Newton.

I asked about time deterioration in cellulose filters when I had the chance to interview some filter boffins last year. I learned there IS a time limit, generally something that has been determined in a lab by the manufacturer of the media (which isn't often the same company that makes the filter). It's information the filter mfr. gets from the media mfr. but good luck getting anyone to disclose it. And there are many different grades of media and it can change slightly from one run of filters to another so any answer you get might be somewhat obsolete in a short period of time.

Since nobody would disclose any specific details, I asked for some rules of thumb. The timeframe everyone was fully comfortable with was up to three years and the tooth-sucking noises started when I got up to around five years. They agreed it's all situationally specific; i.e. if the oil has not turned into nasty, acidic glop the odds are good the filter is good to go for a long(er) run.

Overall these questions are why a full synthetic media is the answer for long FCIs because even it the oil gets a little dicey, they are more or less immune to chemistry changes in the oil.
 
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OK, Ya'll have convinced me to leave the oil & oil filters in place and re-test in another yr. But, I'm gonna change the air filter now since it has a 2009 date on it.

Thanks

Don
 
Good plan!

If it was my vehicle, I'd give strong consideration to changing the oil and filter between Thanksgiving and Christmas.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Cellulose isn't degraded by "soaking" in "synthetic oil". Like most things organic is it attacked by oxygen (oxidation).

Just where are the risk factors in this UOA indicating problems are present, other than your gut feeling?

What studies can you point to that show causation (or even correlation) of Ox to some level of filtration media degradation?

How many filters have you run past two years, and then done autopsy on to review media condition?



I'm not stating emphatically that you're wrong. But I see zero evidence to indicate you're correct. Let's put aside "feelings" and go with facts, shall we?


It's not the cellulose that is degrading, but the resin that binds the pleats apparently. Here is a blurb about Donaldson Filters....



Engine Protection Filters Drive Costs Down

Donaldson Endurance lube filters are made using exclusive advanced synthetic media technologies. Synthetic media technology delivers:
•Extended Service Life
•Greater engine protection to prolong engine and equipment life
•Improved lubricant flow
•Improved cold start performance
•Reduced operating costs
•Can be used beyond OEM drain intervals


Donaldson Endurance&#153; oil filters are made with premium advanced synthetic media technology that results in fibers that have a controlled size, shape and smaller fiber diameter.

The controlled media manufacturing process allows Donaldson Endurance&#153; oil filters to deliver both higher dirt holding capacity at the same pressure differential and higher efficiency compared to conventional cellulose filters. The synthetic media also has better durability with usage.

Throughout the service life of a cellulose filter, hot oil will degrade the resins that bind the media. The synthetic media technology uses a wire screen backing pleated with the media, resulting in superior strength.

Donaldson Endurance&#153; oil filters offer extended service intervals, greater engine protection to prolong engine and equipment life, improved lubricant flow, improved cold start performance and lower operating costs.
 
That might be true, but I see nothing in there that would indicate HOW LONG until that degradation took a significant impact into the lifecycle of the media binders.


For one thing, they do indicate that "hot oil" will degrade the binders. OK - so how does the calendar play into that? Would it be your position, and Donaldson's, that I could run a filter for 30k miles in one year, but not run a filter for 10k miles over four years? The exposure to "hot oil" would be greater in the first example, would it not? But they say NOTHING about duration other than to imply that their synthetic, wire-backed media will last longer as contrasted to cellulose media. But with what measuring stick are they testing the criteria? I see nothing about time, miles, temps, etc.

Would it not be a combination of acids, time, miles, temps, resin type, etc? I suspect there are a whole host of things that play into this. Their statement that you copied is pure marketing hype; it has no qualifications nor measurables that can quantify their statement. While their claim may be true, we have no basis to judge the longevity of products in their claim. Also, how does one define "hot oil" in terms of thermal cycling? How do you judge the effect of 10 one-thousand mile trips (ten trips at 1k miles each, over 10k miles total) versus 1000 ten-mile trips? Would not the quantity of heat/cool cycles take some toll into the equation? Or, is it just the pure heat soaking, regardless of cycles up/down the temp scale?

Are you starting to see the ambiguity in that Donaldson statement? And so I ask ... where did you come up with your previous two-year mantra out of that Donaldson statement?

Perhaps I'm just "lucky", but I've run filters for 3-4 years, with no problems whatsoever; just normal cellulose filters used a long time. I've cut them open, and see no tangible difference in the media consistiency. And to Jim's point, 3 years is a no-brainer, and 5 years might be on the cusp of "what if ...". I recently finished up at 10k mile OCI on a Classic filter; nothing bad whatsoever inside when I cut it open. UOA showed insolubles were well incontrol, indicating the cellulose filter was working just fine for 10k miles in less than a year. But in your example, we cannot run a cellulose filter for 9k miles in 4 years? If it is your position, and Donaldson's, that "hot oil" will degrade the binders, then are you saying all of us who run a PureOne or Wix for 10-15k miles are playing with filter fire? We're running on the ragged cusp of the filter degrading into mush? Sorry - but I call bovine poo on that concept.

The filter has ZERO idea how old it is. While I do believe that the media (the cellulose, the biniders, the adhesive, etc) will eventually degrade, I've seen them last a LOT longer than 2 years with no ill effects whatsoever in a healthy engine. I'd say 4 years is certainly doable if the conditions stay similar to this UOA example. And as Jim said, filter makers get a little sketchy at 5 years, but probably because they simply don't have a lot of solid data to make a recommendation one way or another, so it's easy for them to simply say "probably not" as a coverage statement. There is really no benefit for them to test filters so far out; it's not in their marketing plan and it's not as though the main-stream will want such a product anyway. If they took that position that 5 years was OK, they would open themselves up to warranty implications. So the "or one year" dogma stays intact as a matter of self-preservation. Addtionally, as time extends, so does the divergence of other contributing factors such as acids, temp cycles, etc and so that would add to the complexity of the testing DOE.

I don't disagree that a synthetic wire-backed media might last "longer" than cellulose, but I'm calling into question your two-year limit based upon some arbitray marketing hype. I see nothing from that Donaldson statement that indicates how long any filter will last; it is only a statement that one will be superior relative to the alternative, which I doubt any of us would find fault in.

In short, your copied statement from Donaldson does nothing to back up your two year "change them now" claim, nor does it refute my "can run out to 4 years" claim, as it lacks any quantifiable criteria whatsoever. While I agree that a premium synthetic media filter will have a propensity to last longer than a cellulose one, I see nothing in your logic nor Donaldson quote that explains how a cellulose filter will fail after two years.
 
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OK, it is obvious that all the extended OCI fanboys that are recommending you save a few measly dollars by not changing your filters have no idea what will happen to your engine IF they begin to disintegrate. Having seen the damage, I will spell it out for you: The media material will shred and get pumped into the oil galleys, where it will do numerous bad things. Worst thing that happens is the piston cooling nozzles get plugged, and you burn a hole through one or more pistons. When that happens, cylinder wall and head damage inevitably occurs. I have seen this happen, although Fram filters were the culprit (and resulted in a Cummins TSB advising against their use).

An in-frame overhaul kit for a 2002 ISM Cummins is $8500. A diesel pusher usually means engine removal is necessary to perform the overhaul, so figure another ten grand for R&R and the labor of overhauling the engine.

So, the question to ask yourself is whether saving the cost of two filters is worth the risk? Your engine, your money.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Filters actually become more efficient as they age. As the media loads up, it does an ever "better" job at catching particulate.


Yeah that works great, until the bypass valve opens and you end up running unfiltered oil through your engine.
 
Having seen similar examples, after total and pure neglect, I'd have to agree that there is alwasy some limit to any product.

And whether you realize it or not, you have brought up the concept of ROI; one I tout often.

So, your "cheap insurance - change it now" theory is in play here.

Just how often is he to change filters, and oil? How cheap is "cheap insurance" and where does one draw the line?

Why even do a UOA if you're going to let the calendar decide when to O/FCI? Is that not just more waste? Pay for information you're going to promptly disregard? What silliness is that?

How often should he change filters, in your opinion?
What criteria would he use to judge the filter longevity?

Often BITOGers want to limit an OCI or FCI based upon the least common denominator, be it miles or months. And that decision often comes even after they've paid for analysis indicating everything is fine!

So, the question to ask oneself is whether paying for premium products and analytical information is worth it, or should you just blindly do what the self-serving aftermarket tells you to do, in favor of protecting their warranty exposure?

Your wallet, your waste.
 
Originally Posted By: MaxPF
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Filters actually become more efficient as they age. As the media loads up, it does an ever "better" job at catching particulate.


Yeah that works great, until the bypass valve opens and you end up running unfiltered oil through your engine.



At what point is that? Do you have any indication as to how far out that really is, or how rarely that actually happens?

Jim is doing a test on bypass activation right now, and while the data is preliminary, it's clear that bypass activation is FAR more rare than folks think, and blinding off media is almost unheard of. Well - to be more accurate, actually people hear of it all the time, but it's not based upon reality; it's a mythical fear based upon supposition and not experience.

All your rhetoric to the contrary.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Having seen similar examples, after total and pure neglect, I'd have to agree that there is alwasy some limit to any product.

And whether you realize it or not, you have brought up the concept of ROI; one I tout often.

So, your "cheap insurance - change it now" theory is in play here.

Just how often is he to change filters, and oil? How cheap is "cheap insurance" and where does one draw the line?

Why even do a UOA if you're going to let the calendar decide when to O/FCI? Is that not just more waste? Pay for information you're going to promptly disregard? What silliness is that?


My opinion is that UOA's are a total waste of money for most people. Certainly if the cost of an oil change is within a margin of the price of a UOA.

Quote:
How often should he change filters, in your opinion?
What criteria would he use to judge the filter longevity?


I think 2 years is a good run for the filters. Tell me what criteria YOU would use to determine filter health? After all, a UOA won't tell you squat until AFTER it has gone into bypass. Lets say that happens 1000 miles after the last UOA, and UOA interval is 5000 miles. That means the engine will have run 4000 miles with the filter bypassing rather than filtering. Short of putting a pressure gauge before and after the filter to monitor the pressure drop (and knowing what pressure they bypass opens) there is no way to know. Period. Likewise, there is no way of determining the health of the media, adhesives, etc. without destructively testing it. Your method is for people to gamble on how long they can run a filter because "you've never seen a problem". If they have the misfortune to lose an engine based on your advice, are YOU going to pay for the repair?

Quote:
Often BITOGers want to limit an OCI or FCI based upon the least common denominator, be it miles or months. And that decision often comes even after they've paid for analysis indicating everything is fine!


Well, that is questionable as well. Remember the thread where I talked about the failure of ISB rockers? That SHOULD have shown up in a UOA as increased iron, but it never did. The few people who have done UOAs and had this failure never saw any sign. I have some excellent theories why.

Quote:
So, the question to ask oneself is whether paying for premium products and analytical information is worth it, or should you just blindly do what the self-serving aftermarket tells you to do, in favor of protecting their warranty exposure?


I go with what the engine manufacturers recommend. Many are now allowing extended OCI's, but only under very specific use conditions. And, NONE recommend OCI's based entirely on UOA's, because they know UOAs cannot determine every aspect of an oil's remaining life. They have also done tests conclusively showing that extended OCI's can significantly reduce engine power and overall life.

Quote:
Your wallet, your waste.


The corollary is that you can be cheap to the point of stupidity.
 
I am predicating this conversation on a healthy engine; leaks are exclusionary to the debate.

UOAs may or may not be "a waste"; that depends upon how you fassion and interpret the term. I would agree that on small sump systems, it can often be cheaper to KNOW you flushed out POTENTIAL contamination, than the UOA and KNOW you don't have any. However, in this example, the OP has a sump that is fairly large, and with mutiple filters, the cost of an O/FCI is far less than a UOA. Knowledge is cheaper than guesstimate action in this case. So we move on ...

The add-pack, the filter and the OCI are used in conjunction to take a three-pronged approach to wear reduction.

When it comes to filters, PCs (particle count analysis) is the best way to judge filter performance. PCs can accuratly report on a filters ability to filter. But that is only an INdirect inference as to how they would control wear. People often point to the (in)famous GM filter study, but if you understand the DOE and how they manipulated the inputs, you'd not hang your hat on that study as anything relavant to the real world (and they directly admit as such towards the end of that study!).

Conversely, UOAs can also be used to judge filter performance in an indirect sense. UOAs can infer how well a filter is doing it's job, but as it is only 1/3 of the contributors, UOAs cannot speak directly to filtration.

But ...
UOAs are probably the cheapest way we have to look at wear directly attributed to the "wear reduction package" (filter, OCI, add-pack)

And so, we can use UOAs to look at wear metals and soot/insolubles and make a conclusion about how well the combined tri-effort is doing.

Genearlly, wear rates continue to drop all the way out to 15k miles even with conventional fluids, in most engines. This is proven in thousands upon thousands of UOAs from all manner of engines; gas an diesel, large and small, air and liquid cooled, etc. Also this phenomenon is proven in SAE studies. (See my normalcy article for mounds of concrete proof.)

One of the major contributing factors to wear reduction is the reaction of the add-pack to oxidation. It is actaully DESIRABLE to have some oxidation of the oil; it forms the tribo-chemical barrier that sit between the metal parts in addition to the hydrodynamic film barrier. In fact, the higher the heat, the greater the film barrier (within a reasonable limit that does not scorch the lube). The longer the oil is run, the more barrier that develops, and then wear becomes almost non-existent for a flat-rate period of exposure. (see SAE 2007-01-4133).

So, filtration is only a partial contributor to wear reduction, and in fact, once a minimum threshold is met, "better" filtration does not show any significant correlation to wear reduction. Again - look at the massive amount of data in my UOA research, and see the unique examples (Vulcan 3.0 and Dmax engine) of singular UOAs showing no correlation to wear with variation of filtration.


When it comes to the topic of media blinding off, I have this to say:
There are two separate scenarios here; I'll answer each ...

1) If the filters are opening into bypass with any regularity because they blind off, it must be at a point PAST 15k miles, or the wear rates would see a statistically significant jump up before that point. Hence, a 4k mile FCI is ludicriously short. Wear data proves that blinding of media does not happen early.

2) If the filters are actually blinding off early on as you claim, and opening with regualarity, it apparetnly has ZERO effect on wear. Why? Because wear rates continue to drop towards 15k miles and often beyond. If the media is blinded off, and no longer filtering, then what does that really say of the "need" for fitlers at all? When the data shows wear rates continuing to drop towards 15k miles, and we accept that your position of media blinding off early as true, then does that not indicate that filters have practically no effect on wear? In short, for your position to be presumed right, we'd have to see a statistically significant shift in wear UPWARDS at some point before the 15k miles. BUT WE DO NOT!

So, the reality is that it really does not matter from which position you argue. Whether or not the bypasss blinds off early or later, wear is generally dropping in the VAST majority of engines, all the way out to 15k miles.

Additionally, soot and insoluble counts would take a significant escalation if the bypass was opening often as well. They are contributors to wear, although they are not the only source of wear. And yet the data does not show that happening with any regularity either; soot sees a somewhat positive parabolic slope to occurence rate, depending upon each engine family.

You point of filter media blinding off is moot. It either does not happen often (as I suspect and Jim's experiment is premilinarily showing), or it does happen but has no effect on wear. 4k miles is total joke; it's easily within the reach of any typical normal filter. Most filters can easily go 10k miles, and premium ones can go further than that.

Finally, of all the data I have, there is no correlation that shows a causation of filter degradation when O/FCIs are pushed out past a year or two. Filter left on for up to 4 years show no shift in wear rates as opposed to those in shorter applications. Data speaks volumes here. Simple, and easy to understand. All you have to do is read the data for what it is. I don't rely on supposition and rhetoric. I base my statements in facts gleaned from reams of data directly attributed to UOAs in massive market applications.

Now - I would appreciate it if you would NOT misinterpret my points here. I am NOT stating that filtration is worthless or can be ignored. I am NOT saying that filters last forever. What I am stating is that the HUGE amount of data over tens-of-thousands of UOAs I have, show that once filtration meets a decent min performance level, it can hold that level for a LONG time, and wear continues to drop (for most engines) out to 15k miles. And it is imperative to understand that wear control is achieved by three things; not one.
 
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Newton iterated many things I would have said in response to Large and Max. I would add the following:

1) It's true that resins bind the cellulose into "media" and that chemical reactions or prolonged heat can break it down. There are a variety of resin types available to the media manufacturers, some better than others. From what I know, the quality is fairly consistent across most price ranges of filters but you might consider that the quality of the media (and the resins) could very well be indicated by the price point of the filter. I would suggest that idea be factored into to anyone's filter choice thinking with regards to extended OCIs. Actual data on this will be hard to find. As I said above, I tried to wrest some details from some of my sources but they were unwilling to trust a nube with that much knowledge (assuming I could understand all of it). More to the point, they did not want their name or company connected to anything I might write. Even if I did it right, to many details in the hands of readers with too little brainpower is potentially a bad thing.

2) One of the rules of thumb I garnered from my Q&As with filter boffins was that few filters are ever loaded to anywhere near their capacity in a FCI. When asked for averages, and averaging those averages, the responses were that most filters are loaded to no more than 50% of capacity when changed at the "normal" interval. I think the danger of a full or nearly full filter is very situationally dependent and a clued in operator knows, or can learn, what those situations are and if they apply to them. When contamination inputs are low, which would be the case with most modern gas engines operated in largely clean environments, filter loading is minimal. The inputs from normal wear alone are very low, as evidenced by an average UOA, but when you combine outside factors like a leaky intake system and a dusty environment, you get inputs galore and these inputs increase the wear contaminants and you get what is commonly called, "the chain reaction of wear" and a filter could load quickly. Oxidation byproducts (sludge) can also load a filter, as well as agglomerated soot in a diesel. Again, these are all factors... and there are others... that anyone contemplating long OCI or FCIs should take into account.

3) Anyone contemplating a long OCI or FCI is, or should be, duty bound to up his level of knowledge and thinking. You don't want to wander around blindfolded by your lack of understanding. Anyone who is unwilling to do the required research should just stick to the no-brainer factory intervals. That said, based on what I have learned much oil and many filters are being dumped and tossed in a very underutilized state and given the price increases of these products, a little attention to detail can deliver a worthwhile payoff.

4) UOAs are a useful tool. They aren't infallible and I regard them more as a check on oil health than a tool for checking engine health. It can be the latter, but only when it's trended religiously... and that's not cost effective for most of us not in the commercial realm. Spot checking for oil health and extending the OCI is very useful.

5) Indeed my differential pressure testing is showing that seldom is the P1 filter on my engine going into bypass, and when it does, it's with cold oil that is at least a grade higher than recommended for the engine and when the engine is run hard before oil temps are above 100F. This filter has 13K+ on it thus far but I think this is probably fairly typical in an engine with few contamination inputs. I will be running it to 15K and a bit over 2 years. With oil at 185F, with 10W30 oil, DP is 2-4 psi at 1700-3000 rpm and about 6 psi at 5500 rpm. If I rev to 5500 with the oil under 160F, I pump right up at the filter's spec'ed 8psi bypass beginning opening point (fully open At 16 psi).

6) There is nothing binding a lofted synthetic media... it has wire backing to hold it in place. That's why is is more or less immune to the effect of a long FCI and why I would suggest that type of filter to anyone contemplating a long FCI.

7) Contamination control is best accomplished by starting with controlling inputs... and first on that list is the air filtration system. An engine cycles a lot of air thru itself and if that air is not filtered well, it becomes the major contributor to oil contamination and increased wear. The air filtration system is truly the first house to get in order if a long OCU/FCI is contemplated.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3


In short, your copied statement from Donaldson does nothing to back up your two year "change them now" claim, nor does it refute my "can run out to 4 years" claim, as it lacks any quantifiable criteria whatsoever. While I agree that a premium synthetic media filter will have a propensity to last longer than a cellulose one, I see nothing in your logic nor Donaldson quote that explains how a cellulose filter will fail after two years.



My statement was not to run it two years, but at two years they should be changed!

Just as I agreed with the severe service statement you made in another post was to cover the manufacters equiptment bottomline, the following is true with filters....how many do you see state they will go past a year, or two years, or more? Do you think for a moment that if a filter fails one day past the manufactures warranty or implication of service life or severe service life someone would have a leg to stand on? Are you going to pay for the rebuild on this or any future engines filter faiure and engine failure or dammage on your reccomendation? I personally would not make any claim such as you have without a disclaimer.
LCM
 
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