Im getting my tires installed tomorrow and was wondering if it would be worth giving the sidewalls a couple coats of wax to maintain the tire sidewalls or maybe a couple layers of megs endurance tire shine. The purpose would be to try and make them easy to clean/keep clean and looking nice. Anyone do any of the above or different? Thanks!
new tire care
- Thread starter Rolla07
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I wouldn't touch them for a while. New tires will release various substances that were applied to the tire during the manufacturing process. You probably don't want to interfere with this process by coating them with wax or anything else.
Later on, I guess it's your choice. I personally don't apply anything. Some of these tire products can do more harm than good, and I never know which one is which.
Later on, I guess it's your choice. I personally don't apply anything. Some of these tire products can do more harm than good, and I never know which one is which.
There are some dressings that can be used and even more that should not be used.
If you strictly want protection, don't put anything on. Dressings are for appearance and many OEM's advise against them. Some do list approved dressings. I know Michelin had a list at one time, they also have their own shine.
There is a lot of reading out there on what to look for in a dressing.
personally I like the look of brand new tires, so I just get them very clean and do not dress them. Once you dress them it seems yo u cannot get the fresh look again and have to dress them always.
I haven't really ever understood the obsession with shiny tires. Pristine paint and a polished wheel look great, the matte clean rubber helps to add some contrast.
If you strictly want protection, don't put anything on. Dressings are for appearance and many OEM's advise against them. Some do list approved dressings. I know Michelin had a list at one time, they also have their own shine.
There is a lot of reading out there on what to look for in a dressing.
personally I like the look of brand new tires, so I just get them very clean and do not dress them. Once you dress them it seems yo u cannot get the fresh look again and have to dress them always.
I haven't really ever understood the obsession with shiny tires. Pristine paint and a polished wheel look great, the matte clean rubber helps to add some contrast.
I believe that tier shine products actually accelerate dry rot. I would do nothing.
Most tire shines available at local stores will brown the tire after it wears off. Plus many are solvent based. This one is the exception:
http://www.autogeek.net/stontirshin.html
This company also makes Stoners Tarminator which is great at removing bugs and tar.
http://www.autogeek.net/stontirshin.html
This company also makes Stoners Tarminator which is great at removing bugs and tar.
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
Best maintenance on tires is proper air pressure, alignment, and rotation.
Ding ding ding, we won't take any more calls as we have winner!
Best maintenance on tires is proper air pressure, alignment, and rotation.
Ding ding ding, we won't take any more calls as we have winner!
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I use 303 aerospace protectant. Clean tire first (multiple tire cleaning products out there)using scrub brush. let dry accordingly. Spray 303 on rag/sponge and wipe on. It leaves a matte finish (like new) and has UV blockers in it.
Like others I prefer the clean factory fresh look. This applies to interior also. 303 helps protect but not glossy. Some places say wipe on heavy and then go back in 5 minutes with dry MF. I like doing that as it looks clean but no glare.
Like others I prefer the clean factory fresh look. This applies to interior also. 303 helps protect but not glossy. Some places say wipe on heavy and then go back in 5 minutes with dry MF. I like doing that as it looks clean but no glare.
I believe Michelin advises against using petroleum-based dressings. When I was detailing cars, I used a water-based tire shine made by Hendrick's in-house chemical operation.
Noticed some sidewall cracking on my tyres, which have quite a lot of tread wear left in them. Wasn't much of an issue in the UK (except for things like boat trailers and caravans which don't do many miles) but here in Taiwan average mileages are lower and average temperatures are much higher. Strong sunlight and air pollution are probably contributary factors as well.
From reading, if the tyre pressures are maintained the main destructive factors seem to be oxygen (from the pressurised air inside the tyre) and atmospheric ozone. The latter is the main crack propagator.
Since tyres are oxidised internally by the air fill, it seems likely that nitrogen inflation could prolong their life.
I didn't find much on exterior protection (as opposed to cosmetic treatment) on the net though there's quite a bit on tyre softening treatments to (illegally, mostly) make racing tyres stickier.
I found one reference to castor oil as a tyre treatment, and a US Army reference to sunflower oil as a rubber protectant for chemical protection gear.
I've been experimenting with sunflower oil as a tyre protectant on my front tyres for about a year, the rationale being that it will form a physical barrier to ozone, and also react sacrificially with it.
No disasters yet, and the tyres look better, 4WIW, the visible cracks having pretty much disappeared. The oil does, however, seem to be absorbed by the rubber to some extent. Since I can't really predict the effect of an unstable oil inside the tyre structure, I'm trying canola oil (which is more stable) on the rear tyres, though I'll be surprised if I can tell the difference.
Not a scientifically controlled experiment, of course, and I wouldn't yet try it on new tyres but if the deterioration slows, perhaps the treatment is doing some good.
From reading, if the tyre pressures are maintained the main destructive factors seem to be oxygen (from the pressurised air inside the tyre) and atmospheric ozone. The latter is the main crack propagator.
Since tyres are oxidised internally by the air fill, it seems likely that nitrogen inflation could prolong their life.
I didn't find much on exterior protection (as opposed to cosmetic treatment) on the net though there's quite a bit on tyre softening treatments to (illegally, mostly) make racing tyres stickier.
I found one reference to castor oil as a tyre treatment, and a US Army reference to sunflower oil as a rubber protectant for chemical protection gear.
I've been experimenting with sunflower oil as a tyre protectant on my front tyres for about a year, the rationale being that it will form a physical barrier to ozone, and also react sacrificially with it.
No disasters yet, and the tyres look better, 4WIW, the visible cracks having pretty much disappeared. The oil does, however, seem to be absorbed by the rubber to some extent. Since I can't really predict the effect of an unstable oil inside the tyre structure, I'm trying canola oil (which is more stable) on the rear tyres, though I'll be surprised if I can tell the difference.
Not a scientifically controlled experiment, of course, and I wouldn't yet try it on new tyres but if the deterioration slows, perhaps the treatment is doing some good.
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
........Since tyres are oxidised internally by the air fill, it seems likely that nitrogen inflation could prolong their life........
It would seem that way, but there is this pesky little thing called the Law of Partial Pressure of Gases, which states that you can treat mixtures of gases by treating each gas independently - and in this gas it means that the oxygen and ozone in the atmosphere will migrate back into the air chamber through the tire, eventually reaching equilibrium with the air side air. The important point is that it is the internal rubber which is most important and it is equidistance from the inside to the outside, so inflating with 100% nitrogen isn't nearly as effective as you might think.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
........I found one reference to castor oil as a tyre treatment, and a US Army reference to sunflower oil as a rubber protectant for chemical protection gear.
I've been experimenting with sunflower oil as a tyre protectant on my front tyres for about a year, the rationale being that it will form a physical barrier to ozone, and also react sacrificially with it.
No disasters yet, and the tyres look better, 4WIW, the visible cracks having pretty much disappeared. The oil does, however, seem to be absorbed by the rubber to some extent.........
I'm not a rubber chemist, but I pretend to be one on BITOG. Oops, did I say that out loud?
If there is any indication the rubber is absorbing the oil, STOP!! Oil changes the physical properties of the rubber and could lead to a structural breakdown.
Further, the rubber in tires includes waxes and antioxidants to slow down the degradation rate. Some chemicals remove the waxes to make the tire shiny - and while it looks pretty, the wax barrier that was there to protect the rubber is gone. This accelerates the rate of degradation. I would recommend to folks to be very careful using any tire treatment unless it says "anti-oxidants" in the ingredients - and even then caution is urged.
........Since tyres are oxidised internally by the air fill, it seems likely that nitrogen inflation could prolong their life........
It would seem that way, but there is this pesky little thing called the Law of Partial Pressure of Gases, which states that you can treat mixtures of gases by treating each gas independently - and in this gas it means that the oxygen and ozone in the atmosphere will migrate back into the air chamber through the tire, eventually reaching equilibrium with the air side air. The important point is that it is the internal rubber which is most important and it is equidistance from the inside to the outside, so inflating with 100% nitrogen isn't nearly as effective as you might think.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
........I found one reference to castor oil as a tyre treatment, and a US Army reference to sunflower oil as a rubber protectant for chemical protection gear.
I've been experimenting with sunflower oil as a tyre protectant on my front tyres for about a year, the rationale being that it will form a physical barrier to ozone, and also react sacrificially with it.
No disasters yet, and the tyres look better, 4WIW, the visible cracks having pretty much disappeared. The oil does, however, seem to be absorbed by the rubber to some extent.........
I'm not a rubber chemist, but I pretend to be one on BITOG. Oops, did I say that out loud?
If there is any indication the rubber is absorbing the oil, STOP!! Oil changes the physical properties of the rubber and could lead to a structural breakdown.
Further, the rubber in tires includes waxes and antioxidants to slow down the degradation rate. Some chemicals remove the waxes to make the tire shiny - and while it looks pretty, the wax barrier that was there to protect the rubber is gone. This accelerates the rate of degradation. I would recommend to folks to be very careful using any tire treatment unless it says "anti-oxidants" in the ingredients - and even then caution is urged.
Kestas
Staff member
Are these waxes and antioxidants what gives the tires a brown hue as they age?
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Ducked
........I found one reference to castor oil as a tyre treatment, and a US Army reference to sunflower oil as a rubber protectant for chemical protection gear.
I've been experimenting with sunflower oil as a tyre protectant on my front tyres for about a year, the rationale being that it will form a physical barrier to ozone, and also react sacrificially with it.
No disasters yet, and the tyres look better, 4WIW, the visible cracks having pretty much disappeared. The oil does, however, seem to be absorbed by the rubber to some extent.........
I'm not a rubber chemist, but I pretend to be one on BITOG. Oops, did I say that out loud?
If there is any indication the rubber is absorbing the oil, STOP!! Oil changes the physical properties of the rubber and could lead to a structural breakdown.
I can’t be sure its being absorbed. Its initially shiny, and then goes matte in patches and eventually all over. I’d guess its partly being oxidized, and partly being absorbed/mixing with the surface layer of degraded rubber, Whether it goes deeper than that I can’t tell.
The crack disappearance is probably partly due to them being filled with a nix of degraded rubber and oil, but its possible there is also some swelling of the surrounding rubber closing up the cracks. That’d be a bit worrying.
I can't rule out negative effects, but I havn't so far seen any reports of negative effects of sunflower oil on rubber.
www.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/automobiles/20TIRE.html0
Goodyear are reported as using sunflower oil in tyres. Though slightly encouraging, this may not be relevant, since its part of the compound, rather than a surface treatment.
I’ve probably applied enough of it for now, so I’ll leave it for a bit and keep a close eye on the tyres. I might do some crude “bench” testing with bits of tyre and / or inner tube
Originally Posted By: Ducked
........I found one reference to castor oil as a tyre treatment, and a US Army reference to sunflower oil as a rubber protectant for chemical protection gear.
I've been experimenting with sunflower oil as a tyre protectant on my front tyres for about a year, the rationale being that it will form a physical barrier to ozone, and also react sacrificially with it.
No disasters yet, and the tyres look better, 4WIW, the visible cracks having pretty much disappeared. The oil does, however, seem to be absorbed by the rubber to some extent.........
I'm not a rubber chemist, but I pretend to be one on BITOG. Oops, did I say that out loud?
If there is any indication the rubber is absorbing the oil, STOP!! Oil changes the physical properties of the rubber and could lead to a structural breakdown.
I can’t be sure its being absorbed. Its initially shiny, and then goes matte in patches and eventually all over. I’d guess its partly being oxidized, and partly being absorbed/mixing with the surface layer of degraded rubber, Whether it goes deeper than that I can’t tell.
The crack disappearance is probably partly due to them being filled with a nix of degraded rubber and oil, but its possible there is also some swelling of the surrounding rubber closing up the cracks. That’d be a bit worrying.
I can't rule out negative effects, but I havn't so far seen any reports of negative effects of sunflower oil on rubber.
www.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/automobiles/20TIRE.html0
Goodyear are reported as using sunflower oil in tyres. Though slightly encouraging, this may not be relevant, since its part of the compound, rather than a surface treatment.
I’ve probably applied enough of it for now, so I’ll leave it for a bit and keep a close eye on the tyres. I might do some crude “bench” testing with bits of tyre and / or inner tube
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Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Ducked
........Since tyres are oxidised internally by the air fill, it seems likely that nitrogen inflation could prolong their life........
It would seem that way, but there is this pesky little thing called the Law of Partial Pressure of Gases, which states that you can treat mixtures of gases by treating each gas independently - and in this gas it means that the oxygen and ozone in the atmosphere will migrate back into the air chamber through the tire, eventually reaching equilibrium with the air side air. The important point is that it is the internal rubber which is most important and it is equidistance from the inside to the outside, so inflating with 100% nitrogen isn't nearly as effective as you might think.
Intuitively, I’d have thought the equilibrium would tend to favour the higher pressure gas inside the tyre, though perhaps intuition is a poor guide in this case.
Empirically, this paper reports a protective effect..
http://tirenitrogen.typepad.com/techinfo/Ford%2520Baldwin%2520TireAging%2520%25232.pdf
Paper on oxidative tyre failure (Its specific to tread separation, but the conclusions may be generalisable)
N filling is mentioned towards the end. They find a 70% reduction in rubber degradation compared to air, so there's reason to believe it would extend tyre life IF you didn't normally wear out your tyres, which of course most people do.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
........Since tyres are oxidised internally by the air fill, it seems likely that nitrogen inflation could prolong their life........
It would seem that way, but there is this pesky little thing called the Law of Partial Pressure of Gases, which states that you can treat mixtures of gases by treating each gas independently - and in this gas it means that the oxygen and ozone in the atmosphere will migrate back into the air chamber through the tire, eventually reaching equilibrium with the air side air. The important point is that it is the internal rubber which is most important and it is equidistance from the inside to the outside, so inflating with 100% nitrogen isn't nearly as effective as you might think.
Intuitively, I’d have thought the equilibrium would tend to favour the higher pressure gas inside the tyre, though perhaps intuition is a poor guide in this case.
Empirically, this paper reports a protective effect..
http://tirenitrogen.typepad.com/techinfo/Ford%2520Baldwin%2520TireAging%2520%25232.pdf
Paper on oxidative tyre failure (Its specific to tread separation, but the conclusions may be generalisable)
N filling is mentioned towards the end. They find a 70% reduction in rubber degradation compared to air, so there's reason to believe it would extend tyre life IF you didn't normally wear out your tyres, which of course most people do.
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
......I might do some crude “bench” testing with bits of tyre and / or inner tube.
First, innertubes are made with different types of rubbers than tires. Do a search and you'll find there are many types of rubbers and they have different properties - and react differently to chemicals - oil being one of them.
I've said it before, I am not a rubber chemist, but my understanding of the use of oils in rubbers is 2 fold: To help in processing the rubber (lubrication) and to provide additional sites for cross linking to take place. I vaguely remember talk about using oil to extend the rubber - that is, use less of it as the cross linked oil is a substitute for rubber. I believe this was first developed in WW2 when the natural rubber supply to the US was largely unavailable (Southeast Asia was in Japanese hands)
So the fact that a tire manufacture uses a specific oil should not imply that it is good as a rubber treatment - only that it was useful to the tire manufacturer either in manufacturing or in the chemical makeup of the tire or both.
Oh and John Baldwin's paper? There has been much discussion in the tire world about oxidation and the breakdown of the rubber over time - and John's paper was just one of the points of interest. The discussion has centered around that fact that the Law Partial Pressure of Gas indicates that the use of nitrogen as an inflation medium only results in changing the rate of oxidation by 50% - and that oxidation doesn't seem to be the deciding factor.
Tests have not established a good link between nitrogen inflation and tire durability.
So the idea the nitrogen inflation has some benefits for tire longevity doesn't have experimental support.
......I might do some crude “bench” testing with bits of tyre and / or inner tube.
First, innertubes are made with different types of rubbers than tires. Do a search and you'll find there are many types of rubbers and they have different properties - and react differently to chemicals - oil being one of them.
I've said it before, I am not a rubber chemist, but my understanding of the use of oils in rubbers is 2 fold: To help in processing the rubber (lubrication) and to provide additional sites for cross linking to take place. I vaguely remember talk about using oil to extend the rubber - that is, use less of it as the cross linked oil is a substitute for rubber. I believe this was first developed in WW2 when the natural rubber supply to the US was largely unavailable (Southeast Asia was in Japanese hands)
So the fact that a tire manufacture uses a specific oil should not imply that it is good as a rubber treatment - only that it was useful to the tire manufacturer either in manufacturing or in the chemical makeup of the tire or both.
Oh and John Baldwin's paper? There has been much discussion in the tire world about oxidation and the breakdown of the rubber over time - and John's paper was just one of the points of interest. The discussion has centered around that fact that the Law Partial Pressure of Gas indicates that the use of nitrogen as an inflation medium only results in changing the rate of oxidation by 50% - and that oxidation doesn't seem to be the deciding factor.
Tests have not established a good link between nitrogen inflation and tire durability.
So the idea the nitrogen inflation has some benefits for tire longevity doesn't have experimental support.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Ducked
......I might do some crude “bench” testing with bits of tyre and / or inner tube.
First, innertubes are made with different types of rubbers than tires. Do a search and you'll find there are many types of rubbers and they have different properties - and react differently to chemicals - oil being one of them…
Well, sure. I don’t imagine that any testing I might do would be remotely definitive, but if I test inner tube with veg oil and it disintegrates that’ll be more worrying than if it doesn’t. Tyre sidewalls are relatively robust and are going to be difficult or impossible for me to “bench” test on useful timescales.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Oh and John Baldwin's paper? There has been much discussion in the tire world about oxidation and the breakdown of the rubber over time - and John's paper was just one of the points of interest. The discussion has centered around that fact that the Law Partial Pressure of Gas indicates that the use of nitrogen as an inflation medium only results in changing the rate of oxidation by 50% - and that oxidation doesn't seem to be the deciding factor.
Tests have not established a good link between nitrogen inflation and tire durability.
So the idea the nitrogen inflation has some benefits for tire longevity doesn't have experimental support.
Well, I have to say your general conclusion doesn’t match the research reports I’ve seen, though they may not represent the concensus of opinion, if there is one. I looked on your website but could only find a mention of a single unpublished study.
I know this is a controversial area, with large vested interests, and a history of legal dispute. (If truth is the first casuality of war, it probably doesn’t survive boot-camp where there is litigation).
Much of the research I’ve seen comes from reports produced by, with or for the (US) National Highway Traffic Safety Agency. I don’t necessarily take them as an unimpeachable source, but I doubt they have any commercial interest in promoting nitrogen tyre filling.
They are of the opinion that internal oxidation is a (in fact, according to the NHTSA, the) main cause of tyre age-related failure, and that measures to prevent this oxidation will reduce the effect of tyre ageing. I've quoted experimental research above (Baldwin, 2004) that supports this for nitrogen filling and for butyl rubber linings, but I have seen other references Sperberg (1967); Tokita (1985), Karmarker, (2006) to studies supporting the importance of oxidative ageing and a protective role for nitrogen. These studies (which I havn't read in the original) generally seem to involve accelerated aging tests with different gas fills.
I get that oxygen is going to diffuse into the tyre, and there is apparently an optimum purity of N filling beyond which this oxygen diffusion increases. Nevertheless, according to Dawes (2010) [these are essentially the same paper]
http://www.moderntiredealer.com/files/st...ktires-daws.pdf
http://www.dawsengineering.com/linked_files/practicalaspectsofnitrogentireinflation-daws.pdf
the tyres lifetime exposure to oxygen is significantly reduced (by about 50% over its lifetime) by N filling even with air top off. If N is used to top-off or re-inflate the tyre, the reduction is greater.
This is of mostly academic interest to me since I'm not currently using N inflation, but I'm told its cheap/free here in Taiwan, so I may start, especially if/when I get new tyres.
If it wasn't cheap/free, I might look into CO2 inflation. CO2 is not as inert as N, but its pretty inert, and it could probably be simply and cheaply arranged with some yeast and sugar. AFAIK there's no data available on its protective effect, if any.
Baldwin, J.M., Bauer, D.R., and Ellwood, K.R., “Effects of Nitrogen Inflation on Tire Aging
and Performance”, presented at a meeting of the Rubber Division, American Chemical Society,
Grand Rapids, MI, May 17-19, 2004.
Sperberg, L.R., “Tire Durability with Nitrogen Inflation”, Rubber Age, 99(11), 83 (1967).
Karmarker, U., “Effect of Nitrogen Purity on the Oxidation of Belt Coat Compound”, Presented
at a Meeting of the International Tire Exhibition and Conference (ITEC), Akron, OH, September,
2006, Paper No. 19B.
Tokita, N., et al., “Long Term Durability of Tires”, International Rubber Conference
Proceedings”, Kyoto, Japan, October 15-18, 1985, Paper 18D17, pp. 672-679.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
......I might do some crude “bench” testing with bits of tyre and / or inner tube.
First, innertubes are made with different types of rubbers than tires. Do a search and you'll find there are many types of rubbers and they have different properties - and react differently to chemicals - oil being one of them…
Well, sure. I don’t imagine that any testing I might do would be remotely definitive, but if I test inner tube with veg oil and it disintegrates that’ll be more worrying than if it doesn’t. Tyre sidewalls are relatively robust and are going to be difficult or impossible for me to “bench” test on useful timescales.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Oh and John Baldwin's paper? There has been much discussion in the tire world about oxidation and the breakdown of the rubber over time - and John's paper was just one of the points of interest. The discussion has centered around that fact that the Law Partial Pressure of Gas indicates that the use of nitrogen as an inflation medium only results in changing the rate of oxidation by 50% - and that oxidation doesn't seem to be the deciding factor.
Tests have not established a good link between nitrogen inflation and tire durability.
So the idea the nitrogen inflation has some benefits for tire longevity doesn't have experimental support.
Well, I have to say your general conclusion doesn’t match the research reports I’ve seen, though they may not represent the concensus of opinion, if there is one. I looked on your website but could only find a mention of a single unpublished study.
I know this is a controversial area, with large vested interests, and a history of legal dispute. (If truth is the first casuality of war, it probably doesn’t survive boot-camp where there is litigation).
Much of the research I’ve seen comes from reports produced by, with or for the (US) National Highway Traffic Safety Agency. I don’t necessarily take them as an unimpeachable source, but I doubt they have any commercial interest in promoting nitrogen tyre filling.
They are of the opinion that internal oxidation is a (in fact, according to the NHTSA, the) main cause of tyre age-related failure, and that measures to prevent this oxidation will reduce the effect of tyre ageing. I've quoted experimental research above (Baldwin, 2004) that supports this for nitrogen filling and for butyl rubber linings, but I have seen other references Sperberg (1967); Tokita (1985), Karmarker, (2006) to studies supporting the importance of oxidative ageing and a protective role for nitrogen. These studies (which I havn't read in the original) generally seem to involve accelerated aging tests with different gas fills.
I get that oxygen is going to diffuse into the tyre, and there is apparently an optimum purity of N filling beyond which this oxygen diffusion increases. Nevertheless, according to Dawes (2010) [these are essentially the same paper]
http://www.moderntiredealer.com/files/st...ktires-daws.pdf
http://www.dawsengineering.com/linked_files/practicalaspectsofnitrogentireinflation-daws.pdf
the tyres lifetime exposure to oxygen is significantly reduced (by about 50% over its lifetime) by N filling even with air top off. If N is used to top-off or re-inflate the tyre, the reduction is greater.
This is of mostly academic interest to me since I'm not currently using N inflation, but I'm told its cheap/free here in Taiwan, so I may start, especially if/when I get new tyres.
If it wasn't cheap/free, I might look into CO2 inflation. CO2 is not as inert as N, but its pretty inert, and it could probably be simply and cheaply arranged with some yeast and sugar. AFAIK there's no data available on its protective effect, if any.
Baldwin, J.M., Bauer, D.R., and Ellwood, K.R., “Effects of Nitrogen Inflation on Tire Aging
and Performance”, presented at a meeting of the Rubber Division, American Chemical Society,
Grand Rapids, MI, May 17-19, 2004.
Sperberg, L.R., “Tire Durability with Nitrogen Inflation”, Rubber Age, 99(11), 83 (1967).
Karmarker, U., “Effect of Nitrogen Purity on the Oxidation of Belt Coat Compound”, Presented
at a Meeting of the International Tire Exhibition and Conference (ITEC), Akron, OH, September,
2006, Paper No. 19B.
Tokita, N., et al., “Long Term Durability of Tires”, International Rubber Conference
Proceedings”, Kyoto, Japan, October 15-18, 1985, Paper 18D17, pp. 672-679.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
.....Well, sure. I don’t imagine that any testing I might do would be remotely definitive,........
I truncated this to save space - but I want to let everyone know what I am responding to.
First, the NHTSA studies were all about developing a test and setting a standard for oxidation. It's been over 10 years, and they are still not in a position to discuss a reliable testing procedure. In fact it looks like they are going to abandon the effort.
It also appears that while oxidation causes tires to degrade, the real issue on tire failures is the design of the tire - in particular, how the belt edges perform. This has no doubt caused NHTSA to rethink their initial strategy. The data that NHTSA is getting from the tire manufacturers is showing HUGE improvements. Put a different way, in spite of the agency's inability to address the oxidation issue, tires are becoming better rapidly.
So I see this as very positive sign.
I also see that arguments surrounding the use of Nitrogen as an inflation medium still presents itself on a regular basis - and there is hardly any new information being published. I think the "Nitrogen Industry" shot itself in the foot when it claimed there were benefits that defy the laws of Physics - ala the exception to Ideal Gas Law and the related fuel economy. Once people realized that these claims were false, there wasn't any real advantage to using N2.
The thing I find most interesting is that it would have been very easy to conduct a test of the durability improvements - and that would have been a huge selling point. I strongly suspect that studies were done and they didn't pan out - that the results were either non-existent or so small as to be meaningless.
The other thing I find interesting - and Ducked, you touched on it - is that tire failure litigation has not used the idea that N2 would result in lower failure rates. If there was anything there, I would have thought this would be announced in the loudest possible tones by the lawyers pursuing these cases. They could use that to extract money from all sorts of places - tire shops, vehicle manufacturers, tire manufacturers, etc. - and yet not a peep or even a hint of a peep. Again, I suspect that testing hasn't played out for them.
.....Well, sure. I don’t imagine that any testing I might do would be remotely definitive,........
I truncated this to save space - but I want to let everyone know what I am responding to.
First, the NHTSA studies were all about developing a test and setting a standard for oxidation. It's been over 10 years, and they are still not in a position to discuss a reliable testing procedure. In fact it looks like they are going to abandon the effort.
It also appears that while oxidation causes tires to degrade, the real issue on tire failures is the design of the tire - in particular, how the belt edges perform. This has no doubt caused NHTSA to rethink their initial strategy. The data that NHTSA is getting from the tire manufacturers is showing HUGE improvements. Put a different way, in spite of the agency's inability to address the oxidation issue, tires are becoming better rapidly.
So I see this as very positive sign.
I also see that arguments surrounding the use of Nitrogen as an inflation medium still presents itself on a regular basis - and there is hardly any new information being published. I think the "Nitrogen Industry" shot itself in the foot when it claimed there were benefits that defy the laws of Physics - ala the exception to Ideal Gas Law and the related fuel economy. Once people realized that these claims were false, there wasn't any real advantage to using N2.
The thing I find most interesting is that it would have been very easy to conduct a test of the durability improvements - and that would have been a huge selling point. I strongly suspect that studies were done and they didn't pan out - that the results were either non-existent or so small as to be meaningless.
The other thing I find interesting - and Ducked, you touched on it - is that tire failure litigation has not used the idea that N2 would result in lower failure rates. If there was anything there, I would have thought this would be announced in the loudest possible tones by the lawyers pursuing these cases. They could use that to extract money from all sorts of places - tire shops, vehicle manufacturers, tire manufacturers, etc. - and yet not a peep or even a hint of a peep. Again, I suspect that testing hasn't played out for them.
I ‘d guess the NHTSA’s interest and focus is/was heavily influenced by the Ford Explorer/Firestone episode, which may be atypical, and may distort the picture presented by published research.
That said, I still think the research I’ve seen tends to support a role for internal oxidation in tyre degredation, and by implication, a protective role for nitrogen. As noted, however, the reports I’ve seen are mostly based on accelerated ageing tests, for obvious practical reasons.
I’m not sure I agree that it would be easy to get “real world” data, on “durability”, which in this context would probably have to be defined relative to the rate of “catastrophic” failure. Most tyres wear out before age-related “catastrophic” failure is (intuitively, in the absence of any data) likely, making this a non-issue for most people (except possibly for those running remoulds…though I’ve seen some failure rate data for truck remoulds which suggested the failure rate was similar to new tyres)
Mitigating the effects of tyre ageing is thus of potential interest to a rather small (and commercially fairly unimportant) group who don’t drive much, and their tyres are likely to suffer external ozone cracking, so would also need to be protected from that for any other mitigation to be beneficial. My sunflower oil surface treatment is admittedly speculative and potentially damaging, but commercial products, which may be less so (eg Aerospace 303?) do exist. It also occurred to me recently that lanolin might be beneficial, but I don’t have enough tyres to try that as well.
All this begs (or raises) the question: What is the basis for the advisory age limits on tyres?
Bridgestone, who made my tyres, apparently endorse the The Japan Automobile Tire Manufacturers Association (JATMA) recommended practice (issued May, 2005) for 10 years, with the caveat that there is/was no specific technical basis for it.
Ford and Chrysler both recommend six years, and this seems to be pretty much received opinion, to the extent that, if you post about extending the service life beyond that (as I have), people can get quite nasty about your irresponsibility.
I have seen some German “real world” data showing that “catastrophic” failure rate increases with age, but the sample size was small, and since a very high proportion of tyres are abused in service (notably by underinflation) I’m not sure it proves anything about “intrinsic” tyre ageing.
The effect of “shelf” age on subsequent failure rate would perhaps be more easily interpretable. There is probably data for that but I havn’t seen it.
That said, I still think the research I’ve seen tends to support a role for internal oxidation in tyre degredation, and by implication, a protective role for nitrogen. As noted, however, the reports I’ve seen are mostly based on accelerated ageing tests, for obvious practical reasons.
I’m not sure I agree that it would be easy to get “real world” data, on “durability”, which in this context would probably have to be defined relative to the rate of “catastrophic” failure. Most tyres wear out before age-related “catastrophic” failure is (intuitively, in the absence of any data) likely, making this a non-issue for most people (except possibly for those running remoulds…though I’ve seen some failure rate data for truck remoulds which suggested the failure rate was similar to new tyres)
Mitigating the effects of tyre ageing is thus of potential interest to a rather small (and commercially fairly unimportant) group who don’t drive much, and their tyres are likely to suffer external ozone cracking, so would also need to be protected from that for any other mitigation to be beneficial. My sunflower oil surface treatment is admittedly speculative and potentially damaging, but commercial products, which may be less so (eg Aerospace 303?) do exist. It also occurred to me recently that lanolin might be beneficial, but I don’t have enough tyres to try that as well.
All this begs (or raises) the question: What is the basis for the advisory age limits on tyres?
Bridgestone, who made my tyres, apparently endorse the The Japan Automobile Tire Manufacturers Association (JATMA) recommended practice (issued May, 2005) for 10 years, with the caveat that there is/was no specific technical basis for it.
Ford and Chrysler both recommend six years, and this seems to be pretty much received opinion, to the extent that, if you post about extending the service life beyond that (as I have), people can get quite nasty about your irresponsibility.
I have seen some German “real world” data showing that “catastrophic” failure rate increases with age, but the sample size was small, and since a very high proportion of tyres are abused in service (notably by underinflation) I’m not sure it proves anything about “intrinsic” tyre ageing.
The effect of “shelf” age on subsequent failure rate would perhaps be more easily interpretable. There is probably data for that but I havn’t seen it.
I never do anything but wash my tires and I've never had any issues with cracking or rotting or anything. I don't like the look of shine product anyway, but I believe washing during your regular car wash regimen is all they need. And they look more naturally clean that way.
Originally Posted By: SLCraig
I never do anything but wash my tires and I've never had any issues with cracking or rotting or anything....
Can't see why/how washing would protect tyres from ozone or UV, (which are probably the main tyre sidewall threats?) unless you are washing them with a wax or other protectant.
Could just be that your environment is relatively benign, and/or you drive more than me (most people do).
Here in Taiwan, mileages are low and its rather hot and sunny.
I never do anything but wash my tires and I've never had any issues with cracking or rotting or anything....
Can't see why/how washing would protect tyres from ozone or UV, (which are probably the main tyre sidewall threats?) unless you are washing them with a wax or other protectant.
Could just be that your environment is relatively benign, and/or you drive more than me (most people do).
Here in Taiwan, mileages are low and its rather hot and sunny.
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