How much Zinc in an ACEA C3 diesel engine oil??

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I'm looking to find out how much Zinc based additive is in Castrol Turbo Diesel 5/40 which is a C3 (DPF) rated oil and all I can find so far is this, but it does not list a diesel 5/40 C3 rated oil:

0W-40 SM/CF C3 890
5W-30 - C3 670
5W-40 - C1/C4 670
10W-50 SM/CF C3 890

Obviously it's either 670 or 890 ppm, but does anyone know which one? I have e mailed Castrol but they take about a week to answer at present.
 
I still can't find an answer in ppm terms, but as the oil is also API SM/CF rated it appears it must be the 890 figure, but I'm not 100% sure of that yet. My present oil has 950, so no much change if that figure is correct.
 
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This is from the Joe Gibbs break in oil site section and is a good description of the function of Zinc additives:

ALL "ZINC" IS NOT THE SAME
The oil additive Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate (ZDDP) works because it is a polar molecule, so it is attracted to ferrous metal surfaces. However, Zinc (ZDDP) is not a lubricant until heat and load are applied. ZDDP must react with heat and load to create the sacrificial film that allows ZDDP to protect flat-tappet camshafts and other highly loaded engine parts. The Society of Automotive Engineers’ Automotive Lubricants Reference Book states,“ZDDP is the predominant anti-wear additive used in crankcase oils, although it is a class of additive rather than one particular chemical..” Not all ZDDP additives are the same. Some zinc additives have slower “burn” rates that require more heat and more load to activate than other zinc additives. As a result, not all “High Zinc” oils have the same activation rate. The Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In oil uses a “Fast Burn” ZDDP that activates quickly.

THE CRITICAL BALANCE OF DETERGENTS TO ZINC
Detergents and dispersants in the oil complicate the situation. Detergent and dispersant additives “compete” against zinc in the engine because they are polar molecules as well. Detergents and dispersants clean the engine, but they don’t distinguish between sludge, varnish and zinc – they clean all three away. Modern API certified oils contain higher levels of detergents and dispersants due to the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) systems on passenger cars and diesel trucks. The “old school” theory on engine break-in was to run non-detergent oils, and this allowed for greater activation of the zinc additive in the oil.



There seem to be 3 types of Zinc compounds in use, ZDDP, ZnDTP and ZDP. I really need to know which one is in the Castrol oil to figure out if it has enough total Zinc or not, BUT there is no way of knowing that and all I will get is a simple total figure from the UOA.
The oil lab geeks insist it is a better diesel oil than the Synthoil I am using at present and that the lower Zinc figure is not going to matter, but only time will tell. The various studies I found in Google seem to think a C3 oil is better than any older spec, which is mostly why I am going to give it try, for one OCI.
 
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There seem to be 3 types of Zinc compounds in use, ZDDP, ZnDTP and ZDP.


The anti-wear/anti-oxidant, commonly called ZDDP is Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, or Zinc diarylyldithiophosphate.

The additive chemistry can be supplied with various ratios of Z, Phos, and Sulfur, depending on the application.

http://apps.kemi.se/flodessok/floden/kemamne_eng/zinkdialkyl_eng.htm


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Not all ZDDP additives are the same. Some zinc additives have slower “burn” rates that require more heat and more load to activate than other zinc additives. As a result, not all “High Zinc” oils have the same activation rate. The Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In oil uses a “Fast Burn” ZDDP that activates quickly.



Burn is a really stupid term to use here. Activation temperature is the correct term.

Why do you think they add Boron and Calcium/Sodium and polymer esters? So the cold start friction and wear reduction can happen before the ZDDP activation can occur.

So what will you do with this information once you have it?
 
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I want to compare the Zinc content with some similar diesel only oils that I already have full data for or am collecting at present. The three I have looked at are Castrol Turbo Diesel 5/40, Mobil Turbo Diesel 5/40 and LM Synthoil Diesel 5/40, although only the Castrol has a C3 rating. Burn is an odd term, but they explain it quite well and thanks for the link.
The two key numbers are total Zinc in ppm AND the ZnDDP (I got one D wrong in the last post) EP additive % of the total figure.
 
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Quote:
The two key numbers are total Zinc in ppm AND the ZnDDP (I got one D wrong in the last post) EP additive % of the total figure.



Not sure what you mean here.

The ZDDP contains Zinc, Phosphorous, and Sulfur. You can't separate the zinc from the ZDDP. 1% of an additive = 1000ppm.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
The two key numbers are total Zinc in ppm AND the ZnDDP (I got one D wrong in the last post) EP additive % of the total figure.



Not sure what you mean here.

The ZDDP contains Zinc, Phosphorous, and Sulfur. You can't separate the zinc from the ZDDP. 1% of an additive = 1000ppm.


I presume the total Zinc figure covers both ZDDP and ZnDDP, so I am trying to find out how much of it is the latter, because it's supposed to be better in a diesel, although the former combines well with Moly and as I am going to Test Ceretec I want to see both types present.
I'm also interested in what is behind the Castrol fluid strength claims as I suspect it might be some type of new ZnDDP.
One of the chaps in the ZF lab was very insistent I should use a diesel only oil because what he called the EP additives were better. The oil I was using is a Synthoil designed for Porsch engines, it is not a dedicated diesel oil, it has the same amount of Boron, so the difference in EP additives is interesting.
 
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I presume the total Zinc figure covers both ZDDP and ZnDDP, so I am trying to find out how much of it is the latter, because it's supposed to be better in a diesel,


What do you think is the difference between ZnDDP and ZDDP?

If you read and understood my earlier post, ZDDP comes in various ratios of the three elements I mentioned. ZDDP is ZDDP. Sometimes mentioned with various nomenclature, but it is still commonly called ZDDP.

The most common zinc to phosphorous ratio of ZDDP ester for MO's is about 1.27:1. The other component, sulfur, adds to the sulfur content of the oil. The other sulfur contributor to motor oil is the calcium sulfonate CaS and/or the sodium sulfonate detergent. So the total sulfur content in MO is mostly contributed by ZDDP + CaS.

ZDDP is an anti-wear/anti-oxidant additive in PI packages and it is not an EP additive.

I do not know what other sites you are visiting but from what you are repeating here, there are a lot of innacurate comments out there from these other sites.
 
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I'm more inclined to beleive MolaKule than just about anybody but isn't 1% equivalent to 10,000ppm? Just sayin.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
The two key numbers are total Zinc in ppm AND the ZnDDP (I got one D wrong in the last post) EP additive % of the total figure.



Not sure what you mean here.

The ZDDP contains Zinc, Phosphorous, and Sulfur. You can't separate the zinc from the ZDDP. 1% of an additive = 1000ppm.
 
They are not innacurate in any way, but they have assigned three different labels to Zinc additives in the UK and Germany and I am just using the UK definitions. They probably do that so there is some more info on the ZDDP mix concerned without having to quote percentages etc.
One of the Dizzy mixes is now defined as an EP and not an AW additive and I presume that is because Castrol wants to rant on about their new fluid strength technology that seems to be based mostly on new Dizzy mixes, to use the local term.
When they used the new C3 rated oil in the infamous blown engine test, where they took several identical engines with a variety of different synthetic oils and ran a typical use cycle until they blew up, the diesel C3 rated Edge won hands down, which has a lot to do with their Dizzy technology, although I have not found out what type of Moly was used or even if the oil has Moly so far.
 
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I'm more inclined to beleive MolaKule than just about anybody but isn't 1% equivalent to 10,000ppm? Just sayin.


Islip made a good catch and the decimal point got left out. 1% is 1/100 = 1 X 10^-2 = 0.01 so 0.01 in ppm = 0.01 X 1^6 = 10,000ppm.

1% = 10,000ppm
0.1% = 0.1 X 10^-2 = 0.001 X 1^6 = 1000ppm
0.01% = 0.0001 X 1^6 = 100ppm
0.001% = 0.00001 = 10 ppm
0.0001% = 0.000001 = 1 ppm


So a Zinc reading from an analysis of 900 ppm = 0.09%
A Phos reading from an analysis of 800 ppm = 0.08%
A Ca reading from an analysis of 2500 ppm = 0.25%
 
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Yep! I can't find a more up to date one and I'm too busy at work to spend time looking. Very difficult to find info on Zinc levels in Google because of all the advertising for new C3 oils and Castrol did not reply, which means it must be some kind of trade secret, until I get some UOA figures back.
 
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Reopening Skyship academy?
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The specs sheets I have found don't have any figures for zinc.

Though interestingly unlike Mobil 1 0w40 they do seem to be different oils.

I know C3 is mainly thought of as a diesel oil specification but it seems to be the spec needed for the Vauxhall Vectra with the 2.2 direct injected petrol engine fitted towards the end of production of the Vectra.

Just changed out the BiLs 2.2 and the oil was black!

I suspect direct injected petrol engines are somewhat hard on the oil.

Hopefully this OCI will be improved, as I suspect the garages have been putting bulk A3, B3, B4 10w40.

What do you think Skyship?

Any thoughts on advantages of the lower saps oil when relating to a direct injected petrol engine.

My thoughts are it may assist in some way with the problems of carbon (I think?) build up in the valves.

I may be wrong, but the handbook said C3 and so do all the online guides I have checked.

And yes I am aware I have gone off thread.

But I am still on the subject of C3 Castrol Edge.
 
Just to clarify a few points here:

ZDDP = ZnDDP = ZDP = ZnDTP - they are all just different ways of writing the same thing, based on personal preference, where you read it, who told you etc. Don't try reading anything into any differences, because there aren't any.

Secondly, taking the opening lines of the "All zinc is not the same" quote; the generic ZDDP molecule is NOT polar - if you look at its structure it is essentially symmetrical and possesses no dipole moment. Its anti-wear action is actually still not fully understood, although it is generally accepted that it chemically reacts with the surface to create a 'glassy' phosphate layer that provides protection against metal-to-metal contact.

Finally, this obsession with zinc content is somewhat folly. What is important is how it actually performs. As mentioned above, the ACEA 'C' categories (and many of the European OEM specifications) put a cap on phosphorus (note spelling - no 'o' after the 'r') limits, thus effectively capping zinc limits since zinc is associated with phosphorus in the ZDDP. However, these so-called 'mid-' and 'low-SAPS' oils still have to reach long drain targets (eg 30,000 km) so they are perfectly up to the job even with a capped zinc content.

Here's a pointer though - the really-capped ACEA spec is C1 (500 ppm P maximum) with C2, C3 and C4 having higher allowable levels (900 ppm max).
 
Originally Posted By: weasley
(eg 30,000 km) so they are perfectly up to the job even with a capped zinc content.


There are additives and oil viscosities that can substitute for ZDDP.

However, your statement above is absolutely not true. ZDDP at 1200 PPM is very effective in reducing or, effectively eliminating, certain types of wear.

This is proven in air cooled, aircraft engine testing. For example, Lycoming camshafts regularly fail short of the recommended overhaul period. Various forms of analysis have shown temperature reduction with the use of ZDDP on heavily loaded "dual function cam lobes" (one lobe operates 2 lifters) .

We cannot use ZDDP in air cooled aircraft engines due to combustion chamber deposit issues. The result is failed camshafts, worn lifters, worn rockers, worn valve tip caps, worn pushrods, worn piston pins and more. The simple addition of ZDDP solves the issue. Period, end of story.

Solution: Roller camshafts, heavy viscosity, substitute additives and frequent oil changes.
 
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I didn't say that a high level of ZDDP isn't effective, but I did say that performance is the key, regardless of its source. ZDDP is a very easy, relatively cheap and well-known way to get wear performance but it does have its drawbacks (as you and I point out). Simply taking away ZDDP will generally increase wear but there are other ways of preventing wear.
 
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