Death of a 3MZ-FE!!! Sludge pics inside!

[mcshooter]

i have rebuilt 2 engines, one had 193000 and the other 147000 and both had no sludge and pistons just pushed out due to no ridge that engines in the past had that required reaming the clyinder to remove the piston.. this is due to the modern oils so a sludged engine is surely not the fault of a oil.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: mcshooter
i have rebuilt 2 engines, one had 193000 and the other 147000 and both had no sludge and pistons just pushed out due to no ridge that engines in the past had that required reaming the clyinder to remove the piston.. this is due to the modern oils so a sludged engine is surely not the fault of a oil.


It's not the oil. It the use of low tension rings for the most part. Oil might have a hand in it but I doubt it's much

 

[Vikas]

You guys do know that in all the cases mentioned here i.e. sludge in Toyota, transmissions in V6 Honda, VCM issues in Pilot etc; NONE broke within the warranty period which usually is NOT that long. Most of them had new car warranty of 3/36 and power train 5/60 or something like that.

Is anybody telling me that Toyota had sludge after doing 3 or 4 7.5K oil changes? I bet not!

 

[JavierG]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
Guys it went 234k with serious neglect. Good engine as far as im concerned

I've never had an engine last that long. My Focus made it to 42k before it developed all sorts of engine issues. Go rid of it at 45k miles. My Ranger had the transmission fail while still under warranty. The engine made it to 125k though. I had a Luv pickup in high school that we traded in for the Ranger. It had 75k miles but was still running pretty darn good. Traded in my CR-V at 44k but it had no issues. I just really wanted the Ridgeline. I plan to keep it until well past I retire (hopefully in 7 years).

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Don't recall the answer:

- Can this engine be cleaned & made to run again?


It locked up. It could be rebuilt. But you would have to beat the pistons out with a sledgehammer.


Even without oil rarely do pistons seize in their bores... Locked engines that don't have obvious failure usually have a spun bearing that's welded itself to the crank...

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
On this specific engine, it's speculation. Could have been customer neglect. BUT we also know that Toyota had a problem with failing sludge engines. In the late 90s and early 2000s they had customers with engines dying at 20-30,000 miles and Toyota voided the engine warranty, thus sticking customers with $5000 repair bills.

Not only is that poor engine design but also lousy customer service. There was never any excuse for why Toyota would void a customer's warranty if the engine died after just 20-30,000 miles. IMHO.



Yes, the 1MZ-FE, NOT the 3MZ-FE, which is the engine referred to in this post.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
read the last sentence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sludge


"Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization." ???

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Is anybody telling me that Toyota had sludge after doing 3 or 4 7.5K oil changes? I bet not!


From the thousand or so comments I've read over the last decade: Yes. One engine even sludged as early as 15,000 miles and the poor guy was complaining online because Toyota refused to pay the $5000 repair cost (and he had all his changes done at the dealer)

 

[The_Eric]

So, getting this train wreck back on track, here's another update....

I knew the transmission was supposed to show up today, but I had no idea the owners from Texas were to be here too! They arrived late in the morning, full of questions about the engine and what happened to the transmission. I did my best to answer and explain. I also found out that they had make it back to Texas by Sunday, so the wife could get back to work.. Great, they need to get on the road and we have no transmission. No pressure...

I got a chance to quiz them a bit on their service habits. Turns out that they've owned the car from 100K on and they maintain that they've had the oil changed every 3k miles.

The transmission showed up just before lunch, so we chained it to the tranny jack and started swapping sensors. After lunch, (1:00) me and our resident rock star (Dave, a 67 year guy that plays guitar, bass and harp, loves rock and blues) started putting it in. By 4:00 I was cruising around on a test drive. Came back, checked the alignment and for leaks. Found one at the transmission cooler line fitting on the (new) radiator and tightened it down. Dave took it for a spin and upon returning, the check engine light, traction control and VSC light came on. About that time the owners showed up... Great... It was a P0430 (catalyst low efficiency bank 2), which automatically kicked on the others. Crisis averted. After some chatting, we sent them out the door and down the road with a new engine (3yr, unlimited mileage warranty) and a new transmission (3yr, 50k warranty) at 5:30 - a half hour past quitting time.



Here are some more pics from the job. Sorry, no follow up pics... Had to stay moving to get it on the road.

Up on the hoist, awaiting a transmission

A view from underneath

From the side (the HHR in the background is also my job - jumped timing chain from a bad guide and no compression on all cylinders)

A little closer view of the engine support fixture.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Don't recall the answer:

- Can this engine be cleaned & made to run again?


No, it's toast. It'll need a full re-build.

Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: electrolover
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Don't recall the answer:

- Can this engine be cleaned & made to run again?


It locked up. It could be rebuilt. But you would have to beat the pistons out with a sledgehammer.


Even without oil rarely do pistons seize in their bores... Locked engines that don't have obvious failure usually have a spun bearing that's welded itself to the crank...


Agreed. The crank was seized. If you look at the pics in the first post, you can see how the crank got so hot that it dried the oil off the rods and counterweights.

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Dave took it for a spin and upon returning, the check engine light, traction control and VSC light came on. About that time the owners showed up... Great... It was a P0430 (catalyst low efficiency bank 2), which automatically kicked on the others. Crisis averted.


Thanks for the update Eric.

Crisis averted, but does this mean they will soon be up for replacing the cat/conv as well?

Also, could the poor condition of the cat indicate that it had been burning a lot of oil prior to it failing?

 

[electrolover]

Yeah right they changed the oil every 3k

I spent a few months working at an independent shop. People always think they can talk their way out of a repair. They come in with a blown head gasket and say its not blown because it only got hot once. Like what the heck!! You cant talk a piece of metal into not being broke. No matter how much you lie.
Needless to say that line of work wasn't for me. Not that I hated the work, I just hate people like that!

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
Yeah right they changed the oil every 3k
Yeah I suppose people could say that just so they don't seems stupid, standing there next to their sludged out blown up engine.

Also, since it had 100k miles on it when they got it there's a change it had been already abused. Some people who only plan to keep their cars for 100k or less are notorious for skipping maintenance.

 

[Danno]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
They changed the oil every 3k 30,000K


Fixed.

 

[electrolover]

If it was sludged up that bad at 100k it never would have made it this long. It would have served em right to have to walk home. Maybe then they would learn not to be liars.
Sorry to rant but dang I really hated those people! You tell em hey you never changed the oil and you need a new engine and they call you a liar and say they changed it every 3k. And then still lie when they are looking at the sludged up motor.

Might as well be standing over a dead body with a bloody knife. Ya know?

 

[KitaCam]

When I got KitaCam @ 98k miles (from a Toyo dealer) CarFax says the oil was changed every 10k miles with conventional oil (by curly, moe and larry)...I happened to talk to the 1st owner who was SURE she changed the oil every 5k...I hope so...but...you know....

The view under the filler cap looks good but I'm pulling the valve cover at my 1st OC (@ 4k miles since the dealer's OC with PYB) to inspect the condition and have a better idea which oil/OCI regimen to do for the next 200k miles.

 

[mr_diy]

3k OCI doubtful. That would average 10 changes per year. I wonder what the coolant level was, if they were asked about adding coolant/oil on a regular basis, or as previously suggested the condition of PVC valve.

Over the last 27 years, I have had just great experience with Toyota's and warranty issues. Also CR surveys, back this up. I suspect there are always some dissatisfied owners, just Toyota and Honda have far less percentage.

I am an original owner of a problem 3.5L Olds Intrigue (now kids car). Long list of repairs, rust, and poor quality. If it would have qualified for Cash For Clunkers, it would already be scrap.

I am an original owner of the supposed sludge prone 1MZ-FE engine. I have to say it has been the best lasting vehicle yet for me, nearly 15 years driven at least 5 days a week. Based on how many I see around, its been great vehicle for a lot of others. I would like to open the rear valve cover or look in the oil pan, but hate to make work or introduce a gasket leak. Did do a UOA to check for coolant and opened oil filters have looked normal.

Wonder if there are any indicators of sludge to watch for?

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: mr_diy
3k OCI doubtful. That would average 10 changes per year. I wonder what the coolant level was, if they were asked about adding coolant/oil on a regular basis, or as previously suggested the condition of PVC valve.

Over the last 27 years, I have had just great experience with Toyota's and warranty issues. Also CR surveys, back this up. I suspect there are always some dissatisfied owners, just Toyota and Honda have far less percentage.

I am an original owner of a problem 3.5L Olds Intrigue (now kids car). Long list of repairs, rust, and poor quality. If it would have qualified for Cash For Clunkers, it would already be scrap.

I am an original owner of the supposed sludge prone 1MZ-FE engine. I have to say it has been the best lasting vehicle yet for me, nearly 15 years driven at least 5 days a week. Based on how many I see around, its been great vehicle for a lot of others. I would like to open the rear valve cover or look in the oil pan, but hate to make work or introduce a gasket leak. Did do a UOA to check for coolant and opened oil filters have looked normal.

Wonder if there are any indicators of sludge to watch for?


If an engine has a turbo they do a great job of saving main blocks from terminal black death by going bang first. When the epidemic of sludged Audi blocks occured in the US because of too long an OCI (Audis fault) combined with cheap dino oil (US stealers fault), quite a number were saved by their own turbos or owners that responded to a low oil pressure warning light that started flickering at idle.
Unfortunately for older engines, headgasket leaks are still a major cause of sludge failures, as the anti freeze kills the detergents in the oil real fast.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: The_Eric

I got a chance to quiz them a bit on their service habits. Turns out that they've owned the car from 100K on and they maintain that they've had the oil changed every 3k miles.

Lets analyze the customer reply. 3k is the old wives tail from days gone by. Sludge would not form using any oil at 3k OCI. The owners manual has 5k (severe) and 7500 OCI's listed which they never read.

My reply from a few pages ago stands..

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Not prone to, the design was vulnerable to cheap owners and poor maintainers which is likely the case here. But you will never know. Who's going to admit they caused that, whos going to admit they neglected the car? Nobody. "I changed my oil right on time". "It wasn't me, its Toyotas fault". Yeah sure it is. I know plenty of people that owned these engines, none of them had any problems at all.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: The_Eric

I got a chance to quiz them a bit on their service habits. Turns out that they've owned the car from 100K on and they maintain that they've had the oil changed every 3k miles.

Lets analyze the customer reply. 3k is the old wives tail from days gone by. Sludge would not form using any oil at 3k OCI. The owners manual has 5k (severe) and 7500 OCI's listed which they never read.

My reply from a few pages ago stands..

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Not prone to, the design was vulnerable to cheap owners and poor maintainers which is likely the case here. But you will never know. Who's going to admit they caused that, whos going to admit they neglected the car? Nobody. "I changed my oil right on time". "It wasn't me, its Toyotas fault". Yeah sure it is. I know plenty of people that owned these engines, none of them had any problems at all.


I think you have to try very hard to sludge an engine with 3K mile OCI's, BUT it has been done by folks in big cities that spend a lot of time stuck in traffic and then use an Iffy lube that has a dino horror story special that one of their friends brings in from a refinery South of the border.
Some of the ultra cheap oils lack enough detergents and dispersant additives to keep an engine clean, which is one reason I tend to rant on about sticking to major brand oils.