opinions; Powerbond vs. Fluidampr balancers??

[dailydriver]

OK, I've narrowed down my choices to the Ozzie made Powerbond (reasonably priced), and the U.S. made Fluidampr (exorbitantly priced at 2X the cost of the Powerbond, but still less than the "top of the line" ATI Super Dampers).

I do not need the >6500 rpm harmonics damping ability of the ATI, since I will NEVER rev this engine even close to that again (the rev limiter is set to 5900 rpm as of now).

The Fluidampr has the advantages of damping at ALL rev ranges, and it will not wear out since there are NO polymer/rubber compounds used for damping, but I wonder if it warrants/justifies it's price for MY use.
I DO like that it is made here though.

Does ANYONE have ANY experiences with these two harmonic balancers/dampers??

 

[SteveSRT8]

I have fluidampr on two expensive setups, but I only used it on the recommendation of my BIL who builds the engines. Actually I built them, but he supervises and checks my work.

According to him there is no better.

 

[bullwinkle]

I've heard that Fluidampr is the way to go to prevent the factory nodular iron crankshafts of the GM 6.2/6.5 from cracking-but, being a tightwad, I use a Dorman one. The Powerbond doesn't appear to be much different from a regular balancer.

 

[229]

I have only used the Fluidampr other than OEM.

 

[dailydriver]

I wanted to avoid the Sino-made Dorman/OEM/GM/AC Delco balancers, hence why I was willing to pay 2X the cost of the stocker for the Powerbond (I figured the quality/longevity had to be better).

I am going to save up for the Fluidampr.

Most of the racing people on frrax.com push the ATI Super Damper, but they also scream their LSxes (and some even their LTxes) up beyond 6600-7000 revs most of the time they are running.

 

[SteveSRT8]

The high rpm operation is exactly why we chose the F brand.

That big inch small block based stroker I run to 7200 all the time!

 

[morepwr]

I do not care for the Fluidamprs. I have seen on more than one occasion, a crankshaft snout break. And these were not on a blower engine where extra stress is on the nose of the crank.

As the dampner gets older and if it sits for a long period of time such as a race car through out winter, the "fluid" on the inside can start to harden and cause a heavy spot in the dampner leading to a nasty vibration and ultimateley damaging the engine.

I dont know what you are building but most of the time an ATI isnt that much more expensive than the fluidampr and in some cases like a small block Chevy or Ford, is cheaper.

 

[Robenstein]

We have used the Fluidamper and the TCI Rattler with good results on our small displacement (427 bored .03) methanol injected Big Block and have gotten several seasons out of it between freshening it.

Currently running the Rattler though. The Fluiddamper made it to my cousin's street/strip 67 SS 396 Chevelle.

 

[Fluidampr]

Originally Posted By: morepwr
I do not care for the Fluidamprs. I have seen on more than one occasion, a crankshaft snout break. And these were not on a blower engine where extra stress is on the nose of the crank.

As the dampner gets older and if it sits for a long period of time such as a race car through out winter, the "fluid" on the inside can start to harden and cause a heavy spot in the dampner leading to a nasty vibration and ultimateley damaging the engine.

I dont know what you are building but most of the time an ATI isnt that much more expensive than the fluidampr and in some cases like a small block Chevy or Ford, is cheaper.


Hi Guys,

My name is Ivan and I work for Fluidampr. I am not here to push product as I know it is against the rules. I am here to provide any tech. support and answer any questions about torsional vibration and/or dampers through providing FACTS not opinion. I spend my time traveling the country working with engine builders, performing engine torsional vibration analysis, and training W/D's on torsional vibration and viscous damper solutions.

One our product is 100% made in the USA with USA materials. Viscous dampers have been and are currently used at an OEM level including heavy duty (John Deere, Detroit Diesel, Caterpillar, and 90% of over the road trucks out there) and car and truck (Ford GT40, Lamborghini, Audi R8, Dodge Cummins, etc.) They do not break cranksnouts. If they did would these manufacturers use Fluidampr especially on high end cars?? The fluid is very thermally stable... It is a viscous silicone that averages 45,000 thicker than a 30w motor oil. This silicone will not even think about changing properties until -40°. So if you are racing on the north pole (which most would use a block heater to warm up the engine and subsequently damper) the silicone is not going to 'harden'. Again, John Deere uses these on thier tractors in some of the toughest conditions an engine will see.

Please feel free to ask any tech questions and I will do my best to answer.

Thank you,
Ivan

 

[SteveSRT8]

^^^I can second the positive spin here.

My BIL is a third gen machinist who specializes in big bucks engines for expensive racing cars. He LOVES the Fluidampr. And he is absolutely the most obsessive about quality.

That's why we bought 2.

 

[OVERKILL]

I swear I posted in this thread....

Anyway, my experience with Fluidampr has been good as well. I have one on my built 302 that is sitting in my garage in anticipation of being fitted to an antique boat.

My logic in buying one was based on the research I had done, which indicated that this type of damper was used by the vast majority of the HD Diesel market and in many High Performance applications.

It is also wonderful to hear that these excellent products are produced in North America, employing North Americans

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: morepwr
I do not care for the Fluidamprs. I have seen on more than one occasion, a crankshaft snout break. And these were not on a blower engine where extra stress is on the nose of the crank.

As the dampner gets older and if it sits for a long period of time such as a race car through out winter, the "fluid" on the inside can start to harden and cause a heavy spot in the dampner leading to a nasty vibration and ultimateley damaging the engine.

I dont know what you are building but most of the time an ATI isnt that much more expensive than the fluidampr and in some cases like a small block Chevy or Ford, is cheaper.


Although my car is NEVER garaged, it also will NEVER sit for more than a day or two at a time without being driven to a full warmup/operating temp, so the above will NEVER be a conditional scenario for my application, even if it were the case.

The ATI is a GREAT damper/harmonic balancer, BUT, it IS geared/'tuned' for constant higher rev use (which this engine will NEVER see), on MUCH higher output engines than mine will ever be.

The Fluidampr is designed to work at ALL rev ranges, even right off idle, and will never have to be rebuilt.
THIS is why I eliminated the ATI from my choices, and would already have the Fluidampr on the car, save for the cost (which I am a little short on at the moment

).

 

[A_Harman]

I have had a 6.5" Fluidamper on my Corvette since 1993. I discovered after 2 years of tracking the car that the rubber on the original rubber damper had cracked, and the inertia ring had rotated and walked on the hub. It was a major failure waiting to happen. I put on a Fluidamper, and have been running it ever since with no problems.

During my time at Cummins engine company, I took a training class in crankshaft torsional vibrations where the pro's and con's of elastomeric versus viscous dampers were discussed. Elastomeric dampers are designed to control torsional vibrations at a specific operating speed, while viscous dampers control torsionals over a wide range of speed. However, viscous dampers don't necessarily provide a lower amplitude at the critical speed for which the elastomeric damper is designed. Mostly the goal is to keep peak-to-peak amplitude less than 1 degree to assure crankshaft durability. Cummins produces engines with both types, but puts viscous dampers on the higher-rated engines of any given engine family. A failure mode for viscous dampers that was discussed was the possibility of "unitizing" a damper, which is the result of prolonged overheating of the silicone fluid so that it bakes into a solid mass. This is a very rare failure, as the fluid has to stay above 350F for long periods of time. This is why some heavy duty diesels have cooling fins on their dampers.

Needless to say, I inspect the rubber on the damper of my Cummins on a regular basis. If it starts to crack, I'm going to put a Fluidamper on it!

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I discovered after 2 years of tracking the car that the rubber on the original rubber damper had cracked, and the inertia ring had rotated and walked on the hub. It was a major failure waiting to happen.


Could this EVER possibly cause an engine speed dependant whine, like an alternator, or p.s. pump going bad (or even idlers), when this rotation occurs??

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I discovered after 2 years of tracking the car that the rubber on the original rubber damper had cracked, and the inertia ring had rotated and walked on the hub. It was a major failure waiting to happen.


Could this EVER possibly cause an engine speed dependant whine, like an alternator, or p.s. pump going bad (or even idlers), when this rotation occurs??


Not in the case of my Corvette, where the inertia ring of the damper is not used to drive any accessories through the serpentine belt. But in the case of an LS1, I think that the inertia ring of the damper is used to drive the serpentine belt, isn't it? If the inertia ring walks axially, this would cause misalignment on the belt, and maybe some edge wear and a little noise. I think you would need finely tuned ears to hear it.

This discussion is making me think I need to crawl under the Camaro and check the damper!

 

[dailydriver]

It is a 25% under drive ASP pulley/damper/balancer on there now, so the quality/longevity might not even be as good as the Delco/Delphi/whatever stocker (as far as the rubber/polymer damping material, and bonding goes) over the same time period/abuse.

 

[Fluidampr]

Thank you for the positive feedback.

Again, I am here if you have any questions.


Ivan @ Fluidampr

 

[A_Harman]

Hi Ivan,

Check your Messages under My Stuff on the Menu.
I sent you a PM.

 

[punisher]

I have no problems with Fluidampr. Come to think of it, I still have one new in the box somewhere around here. I ran one on my 468 without problems; however, I do understand the concerns about them.

What if you ding the housing and don't catch it and the ring isn't free to move? How does the silicone fluid hold up over time as far as viscosity and damping action? I can see an amateur trying to install one with a hammer, which is never a good idea on any sort of harmonic damper, but especially dangerous on a fluid type damper.

I know some builders avoid Fluidamprs due to perceived crank breakage, but as far as I can tell, most evidence is anecdotal, and I haven't seen a picture yet of a broken crank snout embedded in a fluidampr.

 

[Fluidampr]

Punisher,

Great questions.

It will take quite a damaging blow to the housing for the ring to get locked. The wall thickness between the housing and internal ring is generally about an 1/8" of solid steel. We do explain in our installation instructions and warranty that a proper tool must be used for installation and NEVER hit with a hammer.

In a performance application the silicone will not break down. I say performance as we have our Heavy Duty line for OEM and aftermarket which we recommend changing every 750,000 miles due to the constant torque put out by diesel engines. I have received dampers back after 20 years of drag racing just to inspect and when we cut them open the silicone looks the same as the day we put it in.

And yes, a lot of I heard but never any proof. The fact of the matter is we constantly are looking for just a little more and eventually something breaks. I have seen many more broken cranks without a Fluidampr attached than with. We have also found that it is much easier for a crank manufacturer to point at the damper vs. the cheap off shore crankshaft and having to provide warranty. All I can do is keep testing and educating.

Ivan