ZX1?

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When it comes to selling Americans bridges I think you will find the British are better at it than the Americans.


What about the German Bridge at Remagen?
 
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Haven't you heard kschachn? You're suppossed to take their word that it works. People who ask for "statistically substantiated proof" get grief

"You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe." ~~ Carl Sagan

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Christopher Hitchens





No all I asked is for you to justify your opinion in the same way you asked me to justify my opinion.

You see the sometimes the shoe fits more than one foot.


Ummmm, I haven't asked you to justify anything, Yet.
 
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Haven't you heard kschachn? You're suppossed to take their word that it works. People who ask for "statistically substantiated proof" get grief

"You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe." ~~ Carl Sagan

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Christopher Hitchens





Except there is evidence, that you chose to ignore.

If somebody has good results with MMO I am not going to demand evidence.

Did you shout as loudly when MMO was discussed.

Note, I don't actually have enough interest in your opinion on MMO to a fully bother to check.


Anecdotes are not evidence. Nor are they data.

What you are saying that if I claim that I shot a hole in a half dollar at 100 yards with my .44 using only ironsights you would accept it.

Did it yesterday in fact. Six times out of six.

Yeah, snake oil salesme don't like it when you ask for proof. Sold a lot of tonic back then.
 
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You do realise that has nothing to do with anecdotal evidence don't you?

But if can do that then great, not sure why you would want to, but if it makes you feel better you go knock yourself out.

But the number of cars in my personal sample are too few for it to be considered anything other than anecdotal evidence.

In the same way that the results of Caterhams research into using thinner oils but still maintaining good oil pressure.

His evidence, certainly true, obtained and shared in good faith would be considered Anecdotal Evidence.

It isn't just about snake oil salesmen and telling lies to make a sale.

There are plenty of herbal medicines that have plenty of Anecdotal evidence to support the long known fact that they work.

The fact that somebody hasn't spent millions on testing and research doesn't make them less effective.

Though I do have evidence that Devils Claw and Green Lipped Muscle herbal mess a th do work well to reduce Inflammatory markers in the blood, actually a lot better than Sulfasazine, as I came of Sulfasazine for two months and my markers were lower on the herbal stuff than they ever were on the Sulfasazine.

Now this is were it gets tricky.

This little experiment of mine was backed up with eight or nine blood tests and forms part of my medical records, though obviously I never told my Dr what I was trying.

So there is scientific results attributed to this, these blood tests can't be falsified by me.

But again, like Caterham, my results are also considered Anecdotal due to the small sample.
 
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Whining because I'm skeptical of claims with nothing to back them is not going to convince me that your claim is true.

What perceived problem are you trying to fix?

what chemical component do you think oil companies leave out in order to cause you to buy after-market additives?
 
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Trajan said:
Whining because I'm skeptical of claims with nothing to back them is not going to convince me that your claim is true.

What perceived problem are you trying to fix?

what chemical component do you think oil companies leave out in order to cause you to buy after-market additives?
Trajan said:
It is not a question about what chemical components they leave out, but rather what the oil companies are willing to leave out, to maximize the profit to the shareholders/owners.

Do you Trajan think the oil companies are in business just to serve the public with the best products that can be made?

If this is your honest belief, then I see even better, why discussing with you is a total waste.

If you have another reason to why you think the oil companies are Mother Theresa, please explain!
 
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Originally Posted By: bigjl
You do realise that has nothing to do with anecdotal evidence don't you?

But if can do that then great, not sure why you would want to, but if it makes you feel better you go knock yourself out.

But the number of cars in my personal sample are too few for it to be considered anything other than anecdotal evidence.

In the same way that the results of Caterhams research into using thinner oils but still maintaining good oil pressure.

His evidence, certainly true, obtained and shared in good faith would be considered Anecdotal Evidence.

It isn't just about snake oil salesmen and telling lies to make a sale.

There are plenty of herbal medicines that have plenty of Anecdotal evidence to support the long known fact that they work.

The fact that somebody hasn't spent millions on testing and research doesn't make them less effective.

Though I do have evidence that Devils Claw and Green Lipped Muscle herbal mess a th do work well to reduce Inflammatory markers in the blood, actually a lot better than Sulfasazine, as I came of Sulfasazine for two months and my markers were lower on the herbal stuff than they ever were on the Sulfasazine.

Now this is were it gets tricky.

This little experiment of mine was backed up with eight or nine blood tests and forms part of my medical records, though obviously I never told my Dr what I was trying.

So there is scientific results attributed to this, these blood tests can't be falsified by me.

But again, like Caterham, my results are also considered Anecdotal due to the small sample.




Don't waste your time with him, his agenda is clear, all you need to do is search the oil additive section, you'll see. Tens of thousands, if not millions of people using MMO and Kreen with good results are all wrong. Less oil consumption, lifters that were ticking stopped, and visibly cleaner engines, are all lies fabricated by the satisfied users. Next time he recommends or endorses something ask for his proof that it works.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
When it comes to selling Americans bridges I think you will find the British are better at it than the Americans.


What about the German Bridge at Remagen?


Hahaha, I wonder who else remembers that!

But the simple facts here are that anyone who thinks one oil fits all is being very closed minded about the real world.

There are a LOT of cars, wildly differing drivers, HUGE climate variations, etc., and people here want to tell you that all you need to do is put in oil. Period.

It's likely that a few of us may just need some additives. Just run the numbers!
 
Quote:
It is not a question about what chemical components they leave out, but rather what the oil companies are willing to leave out, to maximize the profit to the shareholders/owners.


I don't think there is a conspiracy afloat by the oil mfgs. There is a price/performance target a formulator has to meet for a specific goal. The same with say skin care products, with home cleaning chemicals, etc.


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It's no harm in trying a few additives, anyway.


Well if you do, recommend you do UOA's to get a trend on your engine or transmission, do VOA's on the mix before you put them in to see what you have and then do UOA's afterwards to try and determine if there are changes or deltas.
 
I read that some people use this ZX1 in the radiator. It is simply to protect the water pump.

It was also interesting to read what Jos Verstappen, Richard Dutton and Ralf Schumacher had to say about ZX1, after they had used it a couple of years.


By the way, Molacule, I agree that doing UOA is the way to go when adding a new component to your oil.

On the other hand, if I have a car/engine that I can afford to loose, I can also choose to "learn by doing".

Doing a UOA here in Norway, cost 4-5 times more than in the US.
 
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Without data, you have no idea if there is any harm using additives. You have no idea how it conflicts with the additives in the oil.


And yes, it is a question of what you think they leave out. Because if you don't know, you have no idea what the effect will be. You don't know if you will complement/improve/worsen the additive packs that the oil companies spend millions to develop.
 
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But Trajan if your position was correct then the Internet would be full of stories about how ZX1 or MMO ruined my engine etc.

I think you really have no interest in additives and that you really post in this section as a way to create conflict on the forum.

A bit like somebody posting on a gun forum so they can object to guns.


Have I used MMO?

No.

Do I think it is snake oil?

Well lots of people have had good results so who am I to judge.

You don't know why manufcturers choose the add package they do but price will be as important as performance.

And in the modern Corporate world a company is unlikely to use anything which reduces profit margin even if it twice as good.

If you think about it there is little incentive ensuring vehicles, specifically engines last I definately, as then too many people would buy a car and keep it for 10/15 yrs which would limit economic growth.

But I am not trying to improve the profitability of any company so I will happily try products that I think may ensure my vehicle's engines have long lifespan.

My only ROI is engine life. I don't run semi or full synth to extend intervals I do it to make the engine last.

That is another reason I use ZX1 and used Prolong many years ago.

And you need to understand that UOA is not common in the UK or Europe, as it is the same cost as an oil and filter change.

OCI from the manufacturer are such that a 10k OCI is not considerd extended or even long.

My Pathfinder for example has an OCI of 18k miles, would I leave it that long? No, would I feel safe running it to 12k or 14k without UOA?

Yes.

Provided i have used properly specced full synth oil and the vehicle use doesn't come under severe service.

Don't feel the need to continue with this debate as I think you are just arguing for the same or it.

And you do seem to advocate using MMO.

So again I will say why the hostility towards ZX1 and its users which you don't seem to direct towards MMO.

Especially when the claims and even info on both products website is pretty similar.
 
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It doesn't have to ruin your engine to be snake oil - all it has to do is empty your wallet!

My additive is called obecalP. Millions of satisfied users. Let me know how much you would like. A result is guaranteed.
 
I can only say don't give up the day job.

Unless you can find somebody to pay you to attempt to act smart.

If you have no interest in the use of additives and the additive section of Bitog then don't bother posting here.

There are plenty of other sections where you can pretend to be clever.



I do like your definition for snake oil though.

Widespread use of UOA.

When a UOA costs the same as an oil change.

So, by your definition it doesn't have to damage the engine, just cost you money.

Using your definition here.
 
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


There's room for both points of view in this vast world. Plenty of cars too.


+1
 
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