Nano-based lubricant from Millers Oils

[Bamaro]

Quote:
Independent back-to-back tests using a Porsche 911 race engine showed an immediate power gain of more than 5% by replacing a top conventional synthetic lubricant with Nanodrive oil of the same viscosity, said Millers Oils’ Technical Director Martyn Mann. “In motorsport, lower friction means quicker lap times, and reduced wear means fewer costly engine rebuilds. In the road car industry, engineers are continually trying to improve engine efficiency through developments such as smaller bearings and low friction rings and cylinder liners. Nanodrive contributes to each of these requirements without needing any design modifications or changes to manufacturing,” he said.

In comparison tests with conventional boundary lubricants such as molybdenum disulphide, conducted at Millers’ U.K. R&D center, Nanodrive lubricants are reported to have reduced friction by up to 25% while increasing load capacity by up to 80%.

http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11201

For real or snake oil?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Cant read link due to BARRACUDA page blocker at work. Is it a version of carbon buckey balls? They are suppose to work almost TOO well. Similar product have been formulated into G.E.T racing oil.

 

[pbm]

I just saw an ad (in October 12' Motor Trend) for a 'ceramic nanotechnology' additive made by Xado Co.
It seems to make the same 'engine coating' type claims as a host of previous additives.
I assume the only real difference it will makes is in one's wallet...

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: Bamaro
For real or snake oil?

I was reading this exact article this morning and it's interesting what they have been able to achieve. IMO nano-particles are going to be a key part of the future of oils; however they are too expensive to produce right now to become widespread when there are other cheaper options that can do the job.
The cool thing about nano-particles is that from a chemistry standpoint the formulator can choose the exact qualities they need the particles to perform and build them to that specification. It completely changes the way we think about oil chemistry.

Another interesting quote from the article:
Quote:
As more vehicle manufacturers introduce stop-start technology, start-up conditions will occur much more frequently—from an average of around 40,000 times in a lifetime to a likely 1 million.

I had never really considered that this fuel saving system (where the engine shuts down at idle to save fuel) as being a threat to engine life. This design is not super common yet but has been considered as a real fuel saver. The increase in start-stop conditions could really put a damper on our extended oil drains.

They also point out that thinner oils increases the likely hood of boundary conditions which has been discussed numerous times on the forum, but what most of us overlook is that with thinner oils, the additives do more work to ensure wear protection, which is why we rarely see complete engine failures with xW20 oils. (apart from some of the ones who have been pointed to in other threads).

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: pbm
I just saw an ad (in October 12' Motor Trend) for a 'ceramic nanotechnology' additive made by Xado Co.
It seems to make the same 'engine coating' type claims as a host of previous additives.
I assume the only real difference it will makes is in one's wallet...


There are additive companies that have been jumping on the nano-particle band wagon, and I think it is too early for them to really have unlocked the potential of the science. But we had the same thing when moly and boron first were being implemented. And I expect to see titanium containing aftermarket additives to show up on shelves eventually.

 

[dailydriver]

Is this from the article which was in Race Car Engineering a couple of issues ago?

This is interesting, and Millers sponsors some national series rally cars/competitors in England.

I have NEVER seen their oils for sale stateside though, not even at the exotic/boutique/rare oil sites.

What's the current buck to Euro exchange rate, if one wanted to buy from the Brit sites??

 

[CATERHAM]

Interesting but I'll wait for the independant test results.
Nano-particles from the sound of things are not exclusive to Miller's Oils and as mentioned G-Oil makes similar claim in their race oil.
If their is something to it the majors will incorporate it soon enough or perhaps already are without the hullabaloo.

 

[dave1251]

I will not even look at the link. But I suspect any blender could technically make a claim their product is nano-based. IMO.

 

[S_Walmer]

I got an e-mail about this last week from http://performanceoilstore.com/products.asp?cat=68 Homepage http://www.millersoils.co.uk/ FYI I thought would post this for informational purposes,not spam. A little pricey for my taste I won't be buying this anytime soon, I would like to see some tests done stateside before I would even consider this. I will stick with my Amsoil and G-Oil. It better be the best invention since sliced bread for what it costs. YIKES!

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
I will not even look at the link. But I suspect any blender could technically make a claim their product is nano-based. IMO.


Not so; Nanotribology is a relatively new field of study (the big seminars hosted by the STLE started in 2009 and there is still a lot left to be discovered in the field. Because of how slow moving the oil industry is for change, I don't see widespread adoption of the possibilities for at least another 5 years.

Nanoparticles are synthesized molecular structures that are formed to produce specific results. So far silicates and borates have proven to be the most effective bases for the structures, however there is still more research that needs to be done.

This Article represents some of the major challenges that we are facing in the development of these new technologies.
This one talks about some of the advantages in reducing friction by using some nano opportunities

The biggest issue in this area, besides the lack of complete research, is cost. There are companies (like Millers) who have developed some impressive technology and has decided to take it to market, but unfortunately the way most of the "majors" see things is if it is good enough to meet the basic specs, and can make us lots of money, then that's the ideal choice. They don't care if they are actually the best technology, they just use very good marketing strategies to make sure the customer perceives them as the best.

Also, even when this technology gets adopted the majors' marketing departments are going to try to keep it a trade secret - just look at what castrol has done with titanium particles, they've turned it into a marketing game, which even though the technology may be better (not yet proven), none of the other majors can make any kind of push in that direction without being labelled as copycats.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: S_Walmer
I got an e-mail about this last week from http://performanceoilstore.com/products.asp?cat=68 Homepage http://www.millersoils.co.uk/ FYI I thought would post this for informational purposes,not spam. A little pricey for my taste I won't be buying this anytime soon, I would like to see some tests done stateside before I would even consider this. I will stick with my Amsoil and G-Oil. It better be the best invention since sliced bread for what it costs. YIKES!


Thanks for the links!

At least I know where to get it on this continent if I were ever crazy enough (co$t wise) to try it.
Their prices on Motul 300V are a bit higher than most others, so this Millers stuff might actually be somewhat less exorbibtant IF there were some competition from other boutique/exotic distributors.

They are marketing these as racing oils, but I wonder if they have enough detergents, and TBN, to last for a decent OCI on the street (like Motul 300V and others)??

I REALLY like to see a DETAILED/COMPLETE spec sheet on this 'liquid gold'.

 

[S_Walmer]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: S_Walmer
I got an e-mail about this last week from http://performanceoilstore.com/products.asp?cat=68 Homepage http://www.millersoils.co.uk/ FYI I thought would post this for informational purposes,not spam. A little pricey for my taste I won't be buying this anytime soon, I would like to see some tests done stateside before I would even consider this. I will stick with my Amsoil and G-Oil. It better be the best invention since sliced bread for what it costs. YIKES!


Thanks for the links!

At least I know where to get it on this continent if I were ever crazy enough (co$t wise) to try it.
Their prices on Motul 300V are a bit higher than most others, so this Millers stuff might actually be somewhat less exorbibtant IF there were some competition from other boutique/exotic distributors.

They are marketing these as racing oils, but I wonder if they have enough detergents, and TBN, to last for a decent OCI on the street (like Motul 300V and others)??

I REALLY like to see a DETAILED/COMPLETE spec sheet on this 'liquid gold'.
You're welcome! glad I could be of service. I think I found what you might be looking for: http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/results-tds-auto.asp?SegmentID=43&market=Automotive Looks like some good and detailed specs as well as product info, meets API: SM,CF & ACEA: A3/B4.

 

[67King]

I apologize this has taken so long to reply. We are busy trying to get some details ready for PRI, and there are two other very exciting things we are working on - one is an announcement, and the other is a product line.

Let me preface this by saying that I signed up a while back to address some of these questions. Wayne and I had some e-mail exchanges earlier when I registered, I do not believe what I am writing is in violation of any terms of use, please accept my apology if it is.

Anyway, I am one of the co-founders of the North American distributor of Millers Oils. Barry (Performance Oil Store) is one of our vendors. We have a handful of others, and we are trying to expand our dealer market. We've been operating for about 6 months, now.

Millers is used in many European series, such as BTCC and WRC. One of the more successful F1 teams has been working with Millers on the gear oils. The gear oils were the first to actually use nanotechnology, in 2009, and beat out McLaren and Williams for the Most Innovative New Product in Motorsports at the WOrld Motorsport Symposium, hosted by Race Tech Magazine. In addition to SAE and Race Tech, it has also been featured Race Car Engineering and some others. Millers has recently signed a technical development partnership with a big team over here, that announcement should come out soon. I mention this hopefully give some credibility to the notion that it is not snake oil.

That said, there are some particulars with the test referenced in teh SAE article that neither I nor my business parter are particularly comfortable with. We have performed some dyno runs, they've been performed by other outside entities, and this one is an outlier. Most are around 1-2%, we've seen 3+%, but this one is definately an outlier.

To address some of the specific questions, the race oils have a detergent and dispersant pack based on an SM API spec, making them quite robust to every day use. They do not fully meet the API spec due to an elevated level of phosphorus (from ZDDP, but y'all knew that). This is decidedly different that some of the race oils out there, most are good for a weekend, mayb 500 miles. Millers and Motul (300V) both take the approach of providing a robust additive pack, which makes them appropriate for multiple uses. We have been running a durability study on one of our race cars this year using Millers, the results (which include TBN, viscosity, etc. measurements over time) of which can be found here: http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF/longevity_case_study.pdf

I will be happy to provide some of the articles at people's request. Please PM me (I'm not sure if I can list my e-mail address and remain in compliance?). I can post links here, but again, I don't want to run afoul of the rules or the intent of the rules.

 

[dailydriver]

Besides ZDDP, what other AW/FM additives are in the add pack, and what type (i.e.; boron nitride, 'trimer' moly, DTC moly, Ca, Mg, etc.)??

 

[Clevy]

Isn't cera-tec also some form of nano-technology.
I just went to miller's fb page. They seem legit. I'm interested in trying this stuff.
I'm gonna need more vehicles to help me burn through this oil stash.

 

[67King]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Besides ZDDP, what other AW/FM additives are in the add pack, and what type (i.e.; boron nitride, 'trimer' moly, DTC moly, Ca, Mg, etc.)??


I apologize for the, what, 2 month delay? At any rate, details are proprietary, but to address your question, the typical additive pack will contain some levels of B, Mo, Ca. Somewhere I got a question about the viscometrics, and PMA is one of the polymers used (though the blend of base stocks, including three different esters from the Group V base, reduced the total amount of polymeric VM's).

Of note is that the NT additive pack is an incredibly effective wear reducing agent. This has shown to be extremely effective in gearboxes, as the gear oil has been in service for a few years, now. But on the engine oils, a 4 ball test has shown up to an 80% reduction in volume removed (and yes, I know it sounds like a chlorinated parrifin gimmic, but I defer to how it performs in the field in gearboxes to show that it isn't).

The announcment that was forthcoming, by the way, was a technical partnership between Bryan Herta Autosports and Millers. Not a sponsorship, but a partnership. Not sure what details are confidential and what are not, but it'll be out there at the highest levels this year. http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF/BHA_Announcement.pdf

By the way, at the risk of sounding like an ignoramous, is there a way to "subscribe" to threads so I can go to them directly? Right now, I just get e-mails when one I've added has a reply. Just wondering if there is an easier way.

 

[MolaKule]

From the SAE link:


Quote:
Engine friction arises from two primary sources: viscous losses and boundary friction.


I would have stated it this way:

Engine energy losses arises from two primary sources: viscous losses and boundary friction.

Quote:
“The power gained by cutting frictional losses was independently demonstrated in rolling road tests on a Porsche 911 RSR,” he explained. “With a conventional 10w60 grade race lubricant, the car produced 200 kW, measured to DIN70020. On replacing the engine oil with Millers CFS 10w60NT Nanodrive, the result was 211 kW, an increase of 5.6%.”


That's a gain, after rounding up, of 15 Hp. The decision for each person would be,

Quote:
Does the 33% increase in price yield enough of a horsepower gain to make it cost effecteive?

 

[gogozy]

i know this is lubricant related forum, but i have serious concern about impact of nano technology to environment, and health. I think they shall be tested like drugs, and disclose all the detail/result first, before being available for use by anyone - even in military uses.

 

[67King]

Originally Posted By: gogozy
i know this is lubricant related forum, but i have serious concern about impact of nano technology to environment, and health. I think they shall be tested like drugs, and disclose all the detail/result first, before being available for use by anyone - even in military uses.


I understand and appreciate the concerns, but I'm not sure I agree that an additive to an oil for use in internal combustion engine should undergo FDA approval.

 

[67King]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
From the SAE link:

That's a gain, after rounding up, of 15 Hp. The decision for each person would be,

Quote:
Does the 33% increase in price yield enough of a horsepower gain to make it cost effecteive?


A few points. The technology reduces friction. That manifests itself in many ways, of which horsepower is only one. The primary benefit being seen is a big improvement in wear. The title of the SAE article that is the subject of this thread references fuel economy improvements. Not that we don't expect a horsepower improvement, after all, a reduction in FMEP can only manifest itself in an improvement in BMEP. We have several dyno tests, and most are in the 2-3% range, this one is an outlier. IMHO that is due to the way it was measured, but that is an entirely different discussion (http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF/74_911_RSR_Dyno_Results.pdf is a writeup on it - note the wheel HP numbers which are more in line with most other tests).

All that said, we aren't selling oil. The oil is just an enabler for a range of benefits to be realized. We are selling an improvement in durability, first and foremost. Some of the BTCC and WRC teams using the gear oil have gotten up to four times the life out of their gearboxes. We also did a case study on the longevity of the oil, and got 5 race weekends out of it, whereas most racers typically change their oil after every weekend. In other words, if you look at the big picture, it is a cost saving measure. In a race application, it can be a BIG cost saving.

We are taking a different approach when we start selling the fleet oils. A mere 1% improvement in fuel economy can save a company operating a fleet of 1,000 trucks over $1M a year (off memory, been a while since I looked at the cost models). Again, we aren't selling an oil, we are selling a way to reduce fuel consumption, thereby lowering costs (and also reducing exposure to a volatile commodity). Additionally, we believe that over time, our customers will be able to realize an extended rebuild interval. That will only increase their realized cost savings.

But even if you disregard that, and only look at horsepower, it is very hard to get that kind of power improvement at such a minimal cost, especially a naturally aspirated application.

Also, the oil is priced competitively with comparable high quality racing oils. There is a road oil that was recently launched this is competitive wtih other higher end, fully synthetic, long life oils. The 33% cost increase is not really there when you compare like to like.