How do you feel about Havoline?

[CharBaby]

Originally Posted By: cwp587
Is there any reason why people are recommending 5w-30 instead of 10w-30?

I realize "better cold starting," but 10w and 5w should have almost no difference considering the weather I live in (Mobile, Alabama).

If it is necessary, I will get the 5w-30!
Originally Posted By: cwp587
I have been told that 5w is lighter than 10w, but less "pure oil" is used. According to a few mechanics around here, they said to use 10w-30 if your car allows it. 5w-30 is supposedly unnecessary.

I don't really care which I use. I'm going to be doing 5k OCI's anyways, so you guys can be the judge of that.


At one time years ago, the 10W30 may have been "built/designed" better than the 5W30 but, not today. The "5" is the prefered choice between the two for that very reason. And additives are very important. I think what you may be refreing to between the 5 & 10 is the viscosity index improvers(VII's) in which, the 10 will likely have less VII's. This VII is another subject on it's own and important to understand.

Many mechanics,(unless they've frequented sites such as BITOG), don't understand enough about the oils the way our resident gurus, here at Bob's. Mechanics may understand the basics about lubrications but, not the indepth knowlage as many folk here at Bob's.

Machanics know what they see apon an engine taredown but, they rearly know the true history of the engine maintenance except what the owner told them...That's like saying, "I know a guy"!

BTW, I like and have used Havoline on and off for over 30 years. Currently have a 20 qt stash of Havoline but, also have many other oils in my stash.

 

[ruxCYtable]

I love Havoline. Most of the stores in my area quit carrying it or I'd have used it to my grave.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Char Baby
Many mechanics,(unless they've frequented sites such as BITOG), don't understand enough about the oils the way our resident gurus, here at Bob's. Mechanics may understand the basics about lubrications but, not the indepth knowlage as many folk here at Bob's.


Absolutely. I had a parts guy (who's very knowledgeable about parts) tell me that 0w-40 was too thin for my Audi in the summer, but 10w-30 would be just fine. Right....

 

[GMorg]

I just bought a case at the $2 a quart O'Reilley's sale to replace my GC green habit. It seems thin enough to use in my wife's Sable wagon (5W20) and thick enough for my Montana SV6 (5W30). It may not be ideal, but at $2 a quart, it is close enough for me.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I disagree that 5W/10W doesn't matter, even in Mobile, AL. The kinematic viscosity at 40 deg C (which is 104 deg F) is 73.5 cSt for the 10W and 64.8 cSt for the 5W. Both are 10.8 cSt at 100 deg C (operating temperature). So even on a 100 deg F day, the 5W is 13.4% lighter than the 10W, or 13.4% easier for the engine to pump to the top of the engine. The difference will be more dramatic on a true "cold" start, like at 50 or 60 deg F, etc.

The only time I would use a conventional 10W-30 over a conventional 5W-30 is if the engine has a documented need for the additional shear protection generally available with the shorter viscosity spread of 10W-30. I'd say that very few engines fall into this category, so a 5W-30 is a good general recommendation, even in hot climates.

 

[GMorg]

Let's buy Hokiefyd's position for a moment. Where do you draw the line? If 13% lighter during start-up is clearly better for all, what about 6%, what about 1%, where is the line. In the deep south, I suggest that there is no need for 10W over 5W, but there is very little NEED for 5W over 10W either.

 

[cwp587]

I've come to a decision.

I will use 5w-30 if it is available. If it is not, I will use 10w-30.

Also, the oil I will use will be conventional.

The brand will be any major brand that is the cheapest. This does not include supertech. I am talking about Havoline, Valvoline, Quaker State, Pennzoil, Mobil 1, Castrol, etc.

Thank you all for your opinions.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
Let's buy Hokiefyd's position for a moment. Where do you draw the line? If 13% lighter during start-up is clearly better for all, what about 6%, what about 1%, where is the line. In the deep south, I suggest that there is no need for 10W over 5W, but there is very little NEED for 5W over 10W either.

Havoline 10W-30 has a very low 135 VI.
Their 5W-30 is better at 158; not the best for a dino but typical.
That translates into the 5W-30 being 18% lighter at room temperature, 24% lighter at 50F and 30% lighter at 32F.
Those temperatures are not unheard of in Alabama.

I only know of one manufacturer that spec's the 10W-30 grade any more, and most consider it a legacy grade largely rendered obsolete by the 5W-30 grade which is generally made of higher quality base oils even in conventional oil.

 

[lilred67]

i bought a case @ o'rielly's for $1.99 per qt. not the typical oil i purchase, but for that price i will and not be afraid to use it...

 

[GMorg]

It seems that Caterham's position is that 30% thinner might be within the range that matters.

Thinner at start-up is a good thing from an efficiency point of view. However, energy lost due to pumping oil during start-up, at non-extreme temperatures, is a minor component of the energy used for transportation.

I agree that thinner is better. I am suggesting that in warm climates, the degree of better is fairly minor. If most trips are short and don't allow full warm-up, the degree is larger. The cut-off for where it REALLY matters is in the eye of the beholder.

I have just purchased a case of Havoline 5W30, in part for a 5W20 application. Most 5W20s would provide a more efficient use of fuel. However, at $2 a quart for the 5W30, I am probably saving at least 2$ per quart or $10 dollars per sump. I estimate that I will use about $930 of fuel for each oil change. So, my fuel usage would need to drop by 1.1% to break even. Since I haven't measured the efficiency costs for 5W30 vs. 5W20 for my wife's driving and car, I don't know if I have made a good decision. However, I am betting that her loss of efficiency will not be as large as 1.1%. Depending on the cost of the oil, thinner doesn't seem to always be better. The 10W30 vs 5W30 argument is even less relevant than my 5W30 vs 5W20 argument.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I only know of one manufacturer that spec's the 10W-30 grade any more, and most consider it a legacy grade largely rendered obsolete by the 5W-30 grade which is generally made of higher quality base oils even in conventional oil.

You mean Honda S2000 ?

The oil spec of S2000 was dino 10W30 for warmer climate and 5W40 for colder area. This recommendation was from 2000 until they discontinue production in 2009.

 

[RamFan]

Chrysler's 3.5l also spec'd 10w30 during its entire life of production.

 

[bvance554]

I don't understand why if you always use Chevron gasoline would you use something else just because you are adding a bottle of Techron to it?

 

[MuzzleFlash40]

Got myself 4 cases during the $1.99 sale at Oreillys last month. Doing great in the wifes, will put it in mine in a few weeks.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
Let's buy Hokiefyd's position for a moment. Where do you draw the line? If 13% lighter during start-up is clearly better for all, what about 6%, what about 1%, where is the line. In the deep south, I suggest that there is no need for 10W over 5W, but there is very little NEED for 5W over 10W either.


Realize that the 13% figure was at 104 deg F, which is a VERY warm "cold start". At colder temperatures, as Caterham pointed out, the difference is more dramatic, and non-trivial in my opinion. Because the cost of 5W-30 and 10W-30 Havoline should be the same, there should be no cost/benefit decision to be made, and there should be little reason to use the 10W-30.

You do raise a good point, though. And you are right; everyone will have to draw their own line in the sand regarding the cost/benefit of any lubricant, whether it's a different grade, different type, etc. When you start talking about going to a 0W synthetic vs. a 5W conventional, then you have a very real cost/benefit decision to make.

 

[Bgallagher]

Good stuff. Has a cult like following on BITOG. Typically found cheaply and is a quality oil.

 

[Brons2]

My Kia manual allows for the usage of 10w30 above 0F, but recommends 5w20 and/or 5w30 for best fuel economy. I'm running 5w20 for ease of oil stash, the GF's car also takes 5w20 or 0w20. I can run 5w20 in both cars so that makes it easy.

But I have to admit to having some degree of curiosity about 10w30, I might try it in the summer sometime.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
It seems that Caterham's position is that 30% thinner might be within the range that matters.

Thinner at start-up is a good thing from an efficiency point of view. However, energy lost due to pumping oil during start-up, at non-extreme temperatures, is a minor component of the energy used for transportation.

I agree that thinner is better. I am suggesting that in warm climates, the degree of better is fairly minor. If most trips are short and don't allow full warm-up, the degree is larger. The cut-off for where it REALLY matters is in the eye of the beholder.

I have just purchased a case of Havoline 5W30, in part for a 5W20 application. Most 5W20s would provide a more efficient use of fuel. However, at $2 a quart for the 5W30, I am probably saving at least 2$ per quart or $10 dollars per sump. I estimate that I will use about $930 of fuel for each oil change. So, my fuel usage would need to drop by 1.1% to break even. Since I haven't measured the efficiency costs for 5W30 vs. 5W20 for my wife's driving and car, I don't know if I have made a good decision. However, I am betting that her loss of efficiency will not be as large as 1.1%. Depending on the cost of the oil, thinner doesn't seem to always be better. The 10W30 vs 5W30 argument is even less relevant than my 5W30 vs 5W20 argument.

I find your reasoning short-sighted.
It's a "bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush" sort of reasoning. The point being you don't know how much worse your fuel economy will be with the grade heavier than spec' oil but you can save 2 bucks right now!
Of course you've ignored the reduced engine efficiency, potentially higher wear on start-up, power loss etc.

My thinking is different. I can get high quality bulk Petro-Canada dino oil (better than Havoline) for free from a freind in the trade (either 5W-20 or 5W-30) and I have taken advantage of that in the past but no longer.
Having tried ultra high VI synthetic oils, the advantages are so compelling both economically and in engine performance and improved driveability you'd have to pay me a lot to go back and settle for mineral oil.

Since you do have an interest in oil, I suggest trying just once some Toyota 0W-20 (216 VI) or Mazda high moly GF-5 0W-20 (221 VI) in your wife's car. It will be a cheap and fun experiment and then you can comment from first hand experience on whether running a grade heavier dino is worth it vs one of the most efficient oils on the market.

 

[GMorg]

Caterham wrote: "Of course you've ignored the reduced engine efficiency, potentially higher wear on start-up, power loss etc."

I will grant that I did not put start-up wear in my argument, but I did consider the economic factors for the entire oil change. I have personally never had an oil related issue in a "family car". However, I generally trade cars at around 300,000 miles. In performance cars, I have seen many lubrication related issues, but that is not what I am trying to discuss.

In any case, there should be a degree of improvement that is too small to justify an added expense. My previous attempts to identify that point do not seem to influenced anyone. The point seems obvious to me, but I may be missing some key bit of information that hasn't been shared.

I have granted that thinner is better. I have asked readers to consider the degree of better and what premium in cost is justified by that degree of better. I have suggested that in the deep south, little is gained or lost by the use of 5W over 10W for an average application.

Keep in mind that we have a family '53 Cub (Ford Tractor) that hasn't had an oil change since the '70s and it keeps running fine. We do have to add 4-5 quarts of oil per year to keep the level up. The point being, it is ingrained in me to ask "how much better" and "what is that amount of better worth?"

 

[CATERHAM]

Until you try one of the leading edge oils from which to compare, you'll never know "how much better".