Floorstanding, BIG speakers that sound good??

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Originally Posted By: Volvohead
I see Ascends mentioned above. I have a set of those packed away (CBM-170) and they are really nice monitors. But they don't go that low.

If I had $1500 to spend and had a big room to fill with decent low end, I'd probably spend $500 on a pair of decent bookshelves, like the Ascend ones you mentioned and spend the rest on a quality sealed musical sub, such as Rythmic or SVS. Those bookshelves should be easier to drive, so having very high current amps may not be that critical. And I would expect this setup to sound better and deliver more and cleaner bass than those JBLs I linked to earlier. Alas, a real in-room audition might prove me wrong. And getting the bookshelves and the sub dialed in properly would require careful tweaking as well.

Alas, I understand that for a true 2-channel audio connoisseur using a sub is blasphemy, and after hearing some cheap subs, I would certainly agree. But I am just trying to see how to best spend that $1.5K. If he wants something new, there just isn't much out there to fit the bill short of making compromises, like you noted.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Some of the above suggested speakers are so far out of my price range it's incredible.

And, I'd prefer not to purchase used if possible.


I think the problem you're running into is high levels of IM & THD, particularly at elevated levels. A lot of consumer level woofers have in excess of 10% THD, even at low levels. Not to mention they're probably poorly matched to their vented enclosures, which only adds to the problem.

So you're starting with that. Turn it up and it only gets worse. Concert level? It's awful.

A professional 12", 15" or 18" driver has very low THD, a large voice coil that can handle > 1kW for hours on end and a suspension to match. But a quality driver like that alone will be > $700. Probably more.

Excellent high-end LS's for home use will play loud and clean. Those I listed will do that. But they do cost more.

Not buying used rules out a lot of excellent higher-priced LS's. Your requirements for "concert level" are not going to be satisfied with the new 'consumer' LS's available today, unless I'm missing something. Moving from Deep Purple to piano concertos is a very w i d e range.

Furthermore, your combination of aviation & 'concert levels' & middle age probably add up to decreased sensitivity and (significant) hearing loss, particularly at high frequencies. Making your search all the more difficult. No offense, but you have to start with what you have.

Ever tried excellent headphones? You may need to add a graphic equalizer so you can tweak the sound to your liking. You can make your ears bleed if you wish. Add all the bass & treble you want. No more room acoustics issues to deal with either. No big amp necessary. Easily satisfies your budget requirements. You'll be wrapped in a very spacious, transparent sound. Deep bass with no mud or 'yuk'. Far better than many LS's. Seriously.
 
Onix Reference-1 in the used Market -
I have a pair coupled with an Onix sub which is a pretty musical set up ...

They're AMAZING for their size - when paired with a clean amp.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Some of the above suggested speakers are so far out of my price range it's incredible.

And, I'd prefer not to purchase used if possible.


I think the problem you're running into is high levels of IM & THD, particularly at elevated levels. A lot of consumer level woofers have in excess of 10% THD, even at low levels. Not to mention they're probably poorly matched to their vented enclosures, which only adds to the problem.

So you're starting with that. Turn it up and it only gets worse. Concert level? It's awful.

A professional 12", 15" or 18" driver has very low THD, a large voice coil that can handle > 1kW for hours on end and a suspension to match. But a quality driver like that alone will be > $700. Probably more.

Excellent high-end LS's for home use will play loud and clean. Those I listed will do that. But they do cost more.

Not buying used rules out a lot of excellent higher-priced LS's. Your requirements for "concert level" are not going to be satisfied with the new 'consumer' LS's available today, unless I'm missing something. Moving from Deep Purple to piano concertos is a very w i d e range.

Furthermore, your combination of aviation & 'concert levels' & middle age probably add up to decreased sensitivity and (significant) hearing loss, particularly at high frequencies. Making your search all the more difficult. No offense, but you have to start with what you have.

Ever tried excellent headphones? You may need to add a graphic equalizer so you can tweak the sound to your liking. You can make your ears bleed if you wish. Add all the bass & treble you want. No more room acoustics issues to deal with either. No big amp necessary. Easily satisfies your budget requirements. You'll be wrapped in a very spacious, transparent sound. Deep bass with no mud or 'yuk'. Far better than many LS's. Seriously.


What an accurate post.

Hence my dilemma. I have all sorts of headphones. Love em! However, they don't punch me in the gut like a set of big speakers. In fact, I discovered Skull Candy earbuds and an absolutely in love with them.

It's funny but I'm old enough to know better than to think the Chinese junk at the local audio store sounds good.

Oh yeah, I despise speakers with passive radiators.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet


Oh yeah, I despise speakers with passive radiators.


You seem to have a lot of restrictions and conditions.

Makes it really hard to help you in a meaningful way.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
A professional 12", 15" or 18" driver has very low THD, a large voice coil that can handle > 1kW for hours on end and a suspension to match. But a quality driver like that alone will be > $700. Probably more.


I'm just curious, but what professional driver makes are you talking about?

All the pro LF drivers I've ever encountered did lots of SPLs and watts, reached the basement and shook the walls, but were hardly clean or particularly refined about it. All the pro stuff I've seen with those attributes has mainly been in PA, DJ and stage gear. Loud and rugged, but a little sloppy. More about producing music than reproducing it.

Again, just curious about the use of that term. Always ready to learn something new.
 
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: Cujet


Oh yeah, I despise speakers with passive radiators.


You seem to have a lot of restrictions and conditions.

Makes it really hard to help you in a meaningful way.


Sorry you feel that way, and thanks for the help! Yes, you are correct, I like what I like.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Some of the above suggested speakers are so far out of my price range it's incredible.

And, I'd prefer not to purchase used if possible.


I think the problem you're running into is high levels of IM & THD, particularly at elevated levels. A lot of consumer level woofers have in excess of 10% THD, even at low levels. Not to mention they're probably poorly matched to their vented enclosures, which only adds to the problem.

So you're starting with that. Turn it up and it only gets worse. Concert level? It's awful.

A professional 12", 15" or 18" driver has very low THD, a large voice coil that can handle > 1kW for hours on end and a suspension to match. But a quality driver like that alone will be > $700. Probably more.

Excellent high-end LS's for home use will play loud and clean. Those I listed will do that. But they do cost more.

Not buying used rules out a lot of excellent higher-priced LS's. Your requirements for "concert level" are not going to be satisfied with the new 'consumer' LS's available today, unless I'm missing something. Moving from Deep Purple to piano concertos is a very w i d e range.

Furthermore, your combination of aviation & 'concert levels' & middle age probably add up to decreased sensitivity and (significant) hearing loss, particularly at high frequencies. Making your search all the more difficult. No offense, but you have to start with what you have.

Ever tried excellent headphones? You may need to add a graphic equalizer so you can tweak the sound to your liking. You can make your ears bleed if you wish. Add all the bass & treble you want. No more room acoustics issues to deal with either. No big amp necessary. Easily satisfies your budget requirements. You'll be wrapped in a very spacious, transparent sound. Deep bass with no mud or 'yuk'. Far better than many LS's. Seriously.


What an accurate post.

Hence my dilemma. I have all sorts of headphones. Love em! However, they don't punch me in the gut like a set of big speakers. In fact, I discovered Skull Candy earbuds and an absolutely in love with them.

It's funny but I'm old enough to know better than to think the Chinese junk at the local audio store sounds good.

Oh yeah, I despise speakers with passive radiators.


V-MODA FOR THE WIN.
Give it a try. It is like a nightclub in your head.
 
Quote:
What an accurate post.

Hence my dilemma. I have all sorts of headphones. Love em! However, they don't punch me in the gut like a set of big speakers.

Thanks. Glad to know I'm heading in the right direction. Good to hear you're a headphone fan as well.

OK so you want punch-in-the-gut bass. Roger. Option 1 is you go buy it. It'll be expensive. It'll also take up a large amount of room. But you'll be happy & satisfied. Consider it money well spent. Look up Bag End to start.

Option 2 is you read up on subwoofer design yourself, start with high quality woofers and fire up the saw. Learn, build, learn, build. Like learning to fly. The more you do it, the more familiar it is. Option 3: You build a proven design from one of the books I mentioned. They'll give you a good start in the right direction.

My bass cabinets have a pair of twelves on each side, for a total of four. They are in vented cabinets, but they're in the right size vented cabinets, which makes all the difference. Well braced & 1" thick. The result being true bass in the lowest two octaves, but no lumps, bumps or interfering with the midrange. They're also actively equalized & have a separate amp from the satellites, which lowers IM distorsion.

In addition, the custom equalizer adds a gentle high pass filter for the satellites so they're relieved of bass frequencies, which improves midrange clarity and lowers distorsion. Doubling up on bass drivers improves sensitivity and lowers distorsion since there's more cone area. For deep bass, you need to move a lot of air cleanly. You also can't be either throw-limited or power-limited.

They will go deep & loud, but I don't wring them out much. If anything shows up in the first octave though, you feel it! Active equalization also means I can control the bass level independant of the satellites. Which is important for lower levels due to the Fletcher-Munson effect.

Probably more info than you want, but it's some of the engineering behind it.

Quote:
It's funny but I'm old enough to know better than to think the Chinese junk at the local audio store sounds good.

Oh yeah, I despise speakers with passive radiators.


Many don't! Time to seek out a better audio shop!

Why the hate on passive radiators? Much more efficient than vents. Far less noise too. It's that cone area thing I mentioned earlier.
 
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
A professional 12", 15" or 18" driver has very low THD, a large voice coil that can handle > 1kW for hours on end and a suspension to match. But a quality driver like that alone will be > $700. Probably more.


I'm just curious, but what professional driver makes are you talking about?

All the pro LF drivers I've ever encountered did lots of SPLs and watts, reached the basement and shook the walls, but were hardly clean or particularly refined about it. All the pro stuff I've seen with those attributes has mainly been in PA, DJ and stage gear. Loud and rugged, but a little sloppy. More about producing music than reproducing it.

Again, just curious about the use of that term. Always ready to learn something new.


Sure. Low THD relative to the amount of SPL's and how hard they're being driven. I definitely agree they're not refined. Not at all for low level, detailed reproduction as the cones are really heavy and the suspension very stiff. They have to be to survive. But then again CJ wanted 'gut-wrenching' and 'concert level' bass...on the cheap to boot. I was drawing a comparison to make my point: You gotta pay to play and there's no free lunch!

If you want specifics, I'll have to do some digging. But you might be surprised.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
A professional 12", 15" or 18" driver has very low THD, a large voice coil that can handle > 1kW for hours on end and a suspension to match. But a quality driver like that alone will be > $700. Probably more.


I'm just curious, but what professional driver makes are you talking about?

All the pro LF drivers I've ever encountered did lots of SPLs and watts, reached the basement and shook the walls, but were hardly clean or particularly refined about it. All the pro stuff I've seen with those attributes has mainly been in PA, DJ and stage gear. Loud and rugged, but a little sloppy. More about producing music than reproducing it.

Again, just curious about the use of that term. Always ready to learn something new.


Sure. Low THD relative to the amount of SPL's and how hard they're being driven. I definitely agree they're not refined. Not at all for low level, detailed reproduction as the cones are really heavy and the suspension very stiff. They have to be to survive. But then again CJ wanted 'gut-wrenching' and 'concert level' bass...on the cheap to boot. I was drawing a comparison to make my point: You gotta pay to play and there's no free lunch!

If you want specifics, I'll have to do some digging. But you might be surprised.

A quick check on JBL's pro-driver site revealed that their model 2241H 18" woofer handles 600W continuous pink-noise, Xmax: 40mm, and both 2nd & 3rd harmonic distorsion figures are equal to or below 1% at -10dB below full power. That's remarkably clean. Better than I figured.

But it'll take anywhere from 5-12 cubic-ft depending on alignment. That's a big box in your room. It'll also set you back $797, not including amp, active filter & cabinet. But you'll have concert-level, chest-thumping bass....that your neighbors will also enjoy blocks away.
 
Years ago I had some Infinity SM 150`s that sounded great.
I don`t know if there still made or what the replacement models are.
They sounded better than my Bose 901s.
My friends had Cerwin Vegas and JBLs and the Infinity had them beat.
This was my Air Force dorm days 1988-1992 years.
Couldn`t find the Infintys.
Here`s a link to good sounding Cerwin Vegas,http://cerwinvega.com/home-audio/ve-series-floorstanding-bookshelf-center-channel-speakers.html
 
Last edited:
Imo,horns are the only way to go. Find a good pair of speakers with at least 15 inch woofers,and horn midrange and tweeters.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Imo,horns are the only way to go. Find a good pair of speakers with at least 15 inch woofers,and horn midrange and tweeters.

Yeah, Cerwin Vega XLS-215's. With a dedicated amp.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Imo,horns are the only way to go. Find a good pair of speakers with at least 15 inch woofers,and horn midrange and tweeters.


It's funny, but I generally dislike the sound of horns. I much prefer silk dome tweeters. Paper midranges. I guess it's what I grew up with. But, I am particular, and that limits me.
 
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
I'm running a pair of these Alesis Monitor One speakers on my Pioneer VSX4800 here. Very pleasing.....

I'd snap up a pair of those refurbs if I needed speakers today.

These Alesis are nice speakers for the price.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
It's funny, but I generally dislike the sound of horns.

Same here. Can you say "ear fatigue"?
smile.gif


At higher volumes, they become annoying fairly quickly, at least to me, and turning down the treble knob doesn't really fix it.

Plus, the extra shrill makes for some loss of detail, IMO. Alas, there are plenty of horn fans out there, so it's all subjective.
 
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