What makes Honda 4 cylinder engines great?

[Hootbro]

I do not know, I would like to believe that domestic 4 cylinder made engines are just as good as the imports but have been bitten in the past many times over the years believing that.

I have spread my 30+ years of car buying for myself, wife and kids over the whole spectrum of domestic makes and Asian makes. My observation over this time is that the domestic made 4 cylinder engines out the gate are always being touted "just as good" or "better" than Japans 4 cylinder engines. The problem from my perspective that when brand new and within the first couple of years of service, both the domestic and Japanese brand engines can not be distinguished apart for many.

The real test is 5, 10 and 15+ years down the road of use that Japanese 4 cylinder engines just seem to have less issue than the domestic made ones with the same mileage and time in service. It just never seems to fail on the domestic side where some penny pincher accountant forces the engineering to make a financial leeway to the design that does not become evident until way later in the engines service life. Japanese just seem to have less of this issue IMHO.

So while it is easy to through spec sheets out there today comparing engine models between the Japanese and domestic makes and say they are even, only time will be the true indicator of that and given past track records, domestic made 4 cylinders just fall short.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Personally I would not consider an interference engine to be "great", which is what all or most of those Honda 4 cylinder engines are.


From what I understand, a diesel cannot be made to be non-interference. Also timing chains may not be good-to-go for 500kmiles. Thus, while I'd like to say that a "good" design may either be timing belt and non-interference *or* interference and timing chain, that seems to be too tall of a demand. And really, if you change the timing belt on schedule, it shouldn't matter if it was interference or not. Failure to change on time is kinda like being mad when you find out that a particular engine takes some special oil, or only runs on premium--you should have known that going into it, and planned for it.

 

[Vikas]

Honda doing "better fuel delivery"? Are you aware of the fact that Honda was essentially the last holdout on fuel injection? They were doing carburetors long after every other manufacturer had gone fully fuel injected. Honda was doing fuel injector only on their top of the line "i" trims, rest of the trim levels were getting Mikunis(?) and Kevins(?) along with few miles of vacuum hoses under the hood.

My guess is that Ford had been doing EEC and fuel injections for many years before first PGM-Fi Honda came on the market. And even after that Honda needed few years before it became standard on all models and trim.

We always have rose color glasses when fondly looking at the history but the reality is usually little different than our recollection.

 

[HTSS_TR]

2000 Honda S2000 normally aspirated 2.0L engine generates 240Hp for 120HP/L and rev to 9000 RPM.

12 years later no normally aspirated 4-cyl can do more than 110HP/L or rev more than 8000 RPM.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Zako2
Honda was the king of 4-cylinder engines in the 90s. Their variable valve timing technology looked ages ahead of what other car makers were doing. The wear numbers for 4-cylinder engines (the 2.4L) also look very good in the UOA section. However, Honda pretty much coasted on its reputation through the past 10 years without being a technology leaders. They are among the _last_ to transition their cars at 6-speed automatic transmission from 5-speed, two-three years behind Ford for example. They also haven't been pushing forced induction as hard as other manufacturers. Acura's RDX, first attempt at forced induction, with turbo engine supposedly had issues.

It wasn't hard to beat the Domestic 4's offerings in the '80s
They weren't really trying. One can argue about the output of the Quad4, and it did remain unmatched among the naturally aspirated 4 cylinders until Honda's H22, but it was a coarse and unrefined engine.
What else did the domestics develop?
Ford had the OHV HSC. GM had the OHV 2.0. AMC had their OHV 150. Chrysler had the K-engine

The Honda CX500T was the world's first turbocharged factory production motorcycle.
The Honda City Kei car was turbocharged in 1982.
Honda built a turbocharged 4-stroke personal watercraft before the RDX

Honda has taken stabs at turbocharging. Just never sticks.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
2000 Honda S2000 normally aspirated 2.0L engine generates 240Hp for 120HP/L and rev to 9000 RPM.

12 years later no normally aspirated 4-cyl can do more than 110HP/L or rev more than 8000 RPM.


Suzuki and BMW do. A little over 190 hp per liter @ 12-13,000 rpm.
The GSX-R 1000 and S1000RR do only have two wheels though

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Suzuki and BMW do. A little over 190 hp per liter @ 12-13,000 rpm.
The GSX-R 1000 and S1000RR do only have two wheels though

You're right. I meant to say a 4-cylinder in a vehicle with 4 wheels such as a car (we are in Automotive General Topics, not in Motorcycle Topics, aren't we ?).

 

[Spazdog]

I know. I was kinda' defending the F20C.

I love that the car mags seldom compared it to the Mazdaspeed Miata or Audi TT turbo 4s. It commonly went up against the BMW Z4 and Porsche Boxster. 6 cylinders with up to a full liter more displacement. And it won often. It wasn't just a Supersized Superbike engine. Everything on the car worked as well or better than the German cars.

Honda doesn't have anything "special" in their lineup anymore.
They had the Integra Type R. I remember reading an article where a tester had lapped a roadcourse in an ITR faster than he ever could in an E30 M3. He didn't want to believe it.
The Prelude was a special personal luxury coupe from the moment they stuffed AWS into the 2nd gen. (it went through the slalom faster than every other car tested.) 4th gen got the H22. 5th gen had an early fwd version of torque vectoring
Then there was the NSX. The car that put Supercars on notice. It was no longer acceptable to make a car of that caliber that parts fell off of.

Honda has nothing like that anymore.

Sure, the TSX and TL are competent. but they are not exceptional.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
I know. I was kinda' defending the F20C.

I love that the car mags seldom compared it to the Mazdaspeed Miata or Audi TT turbo 4s. It commonly went up against the BMW Z4 and Porsche Boxster. 6 cylinders with up to a full liter more displacement. And it won often. It wasn't just a Supersized Superbike engine. Everything on the car worked as well or better than the German cars.

Honda doesn't have anything "special" in their lineup anymore.
They had the Integra Type R. I remember reading an article where a tester had lapped a roadcourse in an ITR faster than he ever could in an E30 M3. He didn't want to believe it.
The Prelude was a special personal luxury coupe from the moment they stuffed AWS into the 2nd gen. (it went through the slalom faster than every other car tested.) 4th gen got the H22. 5th gen had an early fwd version of torque vectoring
Then there was the NSX. The car that put Supercars on notice. It was no longer acceptable to make a car of that caliber that parts fell off of.

Honda has nothing like that anymore.

Sure, the TSX and TL are competent. but they are not exceptional.

I agree. Honda now only has mainstream vehicles, nothing stand out from the crowd.

I think what special about S2000 engine is it generates so much power in a small 2.0-2.2 liters and it doesn't need special oil, just plain old dino 10W30 for warmer climate and 5W40 for colder area. The only problem with the S2000 is rear tires don't lasted very long, about 10k miles or less for normal driving and less than 5k miles with some track times, 255/40-17 W speed rate is not cheap.

I think I will keep my S2000 for a long long time, I may never sell it.

 

[asiancivicmaniac]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog

Honda doesn't have anything "special" in their lineup anymore.


That's what Nissan is for

 

[c502cid]

With the exception on one Accord, my 4 Honda cars in my lifetime (all bought with over 100k miles I may add) all leaked oil no matter how many seals I put in, and special thanks to the engineers for the one behind the oil filter mount, and three out of the four all had their moments of mass mosquito killing whether they needed killing or not. Now the Accord had a tight motor, but the A/T went away younger than one should expect.

Also, and I know it is not, but my 80 year old dad has an S2000, I always look at it as a grampa car. The motor may be fun, if it was in a motorcycle. A horrible daily driver you have to rev to make it move.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
2000 Honda S2000 normally aspirated 2.0L engine generates 240Hp for 120HP/L and rev to 9000 RPM.

12 years later no normally aspirated 4-cyl can do more than 110HP/L or rev more than 8000 RPM.


Call me not impressed. It was widely reported you had to beat the snot out of the S2000 to get any power out of it. Looking at dyno curves it was pretty gutless below 3k RPM. Not what I would want as a daily driver.

I'd rather have an engine like my Ecoboost 3.5 with gobs of power just about everywhere and that really doesn't need to spin up in daily driving. But flog it and it will go. I guess it's bad it only revs to 6k RPM.

I think that's the allure of turbo 4s. You can get power that is comparable to a 6 and a flat torque band which makes everyone happy.

 

[gfh77665]

Too much "over the top" love for Honda. For what they cost, Honda should have "better" engines in their vehicles, but I don't see a substantial advantage in longevity vs. others, IMO.

As far as Honda V6's are concerned, they have a debacle on their hands with VCM problems.

 

[SLCraig]

I believe they still make some of the best 4 bangers out there, but with the death of the K20 now in the Civic SI there is really nothing "special" going on anymore. The R18 is a great engine, very efficient and very smartly designed, but nothing on the exciting end of the spectrum anymore like an H22 prelude, B18 ITR, or F20 S2000.

Sad really. Everyone misses those cars.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
2000 Honda S2000 normally aspirated 2.0L engine generates 240Hp for 120HP/L and rev to 9000 RPM.

12 years later no normally aspirated 4-cyl can do more than 110HP/L or rev more than 8000 RPM.


Call me not impressed. It was widely reported you had to beat the snot out of the S2000 to get any power out of it. Looking at dyno curves it was pretty gutless below 3k RPM. Not what I would want as a daily driver.

I'd rather have an engine like my Ecoboost 3.5 with gobs of power just about everywhere and that really doesn't need to spin up in daily driving. But flog it and it will go. I guess it's bad it only revs to 6k RPM.

I think that's the allure of turbo 4s. You can get power that is comparable to a 6 and a flat torque band which makes everyone happy.


Was the S2000 ever a daily driver? I thought it was some sort of sports car.

I like my TDI, lots of torque; but the turbo lag which I like (the delay I think will be nice in winter driving--that delay means full power is harder to achieve) would be excruciating on a track.

 

[mechtech2]

Honda jumped into 4 cyl development and production before we did. We did not need to yet - we were a little late.

But let's be fair, how good were Honda V8s at the time?

 

[lexus114]

I liked the early 2.5 Iron Duke motor, it had a stronger block. And the Brazilion built 1.8 & 2.0 Liter ohc motor`s GM had were great running motors too if you kept them cool enough. Although technically they were a Foreign motor.

 

[SLCraig]

Originally Posted By: lexus114
I liked the early 2.5 Iron Duke motor, it had a stronger block. And the Brazilion built 1.8 & 2.0 Liter ohc motor`s GM had were great running motors too if you kept them cool enough. Although technically they were a Foreign motor.


I absolutely loved my 2.0L SOHC Neon "Magnum" motor in my 2001 R/T... I was young when I bought that car, and I beat the bag off of it for 5 years straight. I never once had a powertrain related issue and that thing pulled as strong as ever. I was lucky enough at one point to drive a modified R/T once that my buddy owned, with an 8K redline, you could bury the tach and the engine just hummed happily along.

After owning a Neon, its astonishing how little respect they get. Good handling, fun to drive, and the engines are just incredible with even a few bolt ons.

I miss that car all the time.

 

[weebl]

I was impartial about Hondas for years, but hearing everyone hype about them, I ended up with a used '91 Civic in 1999, after the unexpected demise of my vehicle, and I needed to get something immediately and on a budget.

How I HATED that car. Sure, some of it I'm sure was a result of neglect from the previous owner, but it was absolutely gutless unless you mashed the pedal. The distributor went on me a while later, something no other distributor equipped vehicle I'd owned had ever done. And by the time I got rid of it, it was consuming oil like there was no tomorrow. Not to mention how low you sat in the car, how uncomfortable the seats were, unimpressive steering.

I'd say it's not just their 4 cylinder engines I find unimpressive. I find the vehicles built around these engines to be equally unimpressive.

 

[Smokescreen]

In 2015 the Civic Type R 1.6L T with 250hp is scheduled to debut in Europe with an 8sp dual clutch transmission. Interesting if it makes it over here. So the 4cyl market has new life breathed into it all the time.

 

[rjundi]

I recall spending $13k on my lightly used 95 Honda EX Coupe. It delivered 40mpg throughout its life from 5k-250k miles/9 years. It never had engine opened for ANYTHING except timing belt change/valve adjustment at 100k miles. The transmission manual was trouble free.

You could not get a lower cost per mile vehicle.

It was sold as I just got bored and it grew more uncomfortable(seat padding) and the coupe form was brutal from day one. Also body creaks likely from worn struts(original!).

The VTEC engine was nice when revved too since this is about engines.