DexCool Sludge; Cleaning

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Not to start the DexCool debacle, but needless to say I have an issue with a 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix (3.1L automatic). Its not my car but someone I know has owned it for a few years now and awhile ago it was recommended to have the cooling system flushed when the car was taken to an oil change place around town here. Nearest I can figure the coolant was the original factory install all the way up until about 2009 when this was recommended, and the system was flushed accordingly. It was expensive but whatever, they flushed the car with a solution I expect to be a regular off the shelf flushing agent, installed Prestone's AMAM based coolant, and the car went on its way.

Now I actually have very little issues with what was done to the car, besides the cost, since I've now been bestowed the responsibility for doing more maintenance on the vehicle for the owner. They save money, I make a few bucks, so its a good deal. Problem is the cooling system still has quite a bit of that nice muddy covering inside it, all chunky with about the consistency of ceiling plaster with too much water in the mix. With winter coming up I was asked to check the coolant strength and if it should be flushed again. Coolant strength is fine but when drawing it into the gauge I was met with a dim yellow fluid with some odd chunks of debris. The overflow bottle and the radiator fill neck also has a familiar dirty coating. I don't believe any of this is from the newly installed coolant, its likely remnants from the last coolant failing in the system.

So the question is. anyone have familiarity with cleaning out this junk? I can understand flushing water through the system should help, but much of it "sticking" to the walls inside the cooling system is making this a concern, since the original flush obviously never really got the last %50 or so of the debris out. The overflow bottle is easy to remove and clean out but the radiator and the block is another story.

I might try Cascade automatic dish washing detergent, since I'm aware that was an old school trick to get oil out of contaminated systems, but obviously I'm open to any advice from people who might be familiar with this.
 
Be careful RiceCake...it sounds like there might be more going on with this vehicle than meets the eye.

If you work on this car and something that was already failing becomes a total failure YOU will be on the hook for it.

I'd not assume ANY responsibility. I can smell the trouble around the corner.
 
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True, and that is good advice, but needless to say I'm not worried about it. I am concerned about the possibility that the sludging is the result of other issues, gaskets and whatnot, but I've made it pretty clear to the vehicle owner the circumstances and possibilities that are happening within the block. They understand, and the main concern is just to avoid plugging up the heater core then anything else with the stuff floating around inside there. It was flushed before, I never asked, but I do wonder if these issues were brought up with them since they didn't seem terrifically frustrated by whats happening with the coolant.

I'll keep that in mind though, I know Prestone makes a flush, but its likely what was used on the /initial/ flush the system received, so I'm looking for the Tim Allen "more power" approach to try to get the rest of the debris out. The flush-in-a-bottle never did a truly fantastic job.
 
flush it, fill with water, run it a few miles then drain it. If a bunch of gunk comes out then at least you know what you are dealing with. There are a few "flushes" out there, I would do a little research then follow the recommended steps. Then fill with your choice of antifreeze and drive on.
 
I've never used anything but water to flush a cooling system, even on a car that had an unknown mix of green and orange coolant with bits of brown mud in it.

I would just flush with the hose while running and do some drives around the block just draining and filling with water. Sometimes after the water is coming out clean, I'll drive around the block a few times with higher revs and it always seems to get some extra crud out of the system.

I don't know much about the flush products, but I feel that either they're too weak to do any real cleaning and are pointless, or are strong enough that I don't want them in there. Either way, I wouldn't put dishwasher or other non-automotive products in someone else's car.
 
Sounds like it'll take a little legwork to keep running water through it but if that's what sounds best, will try it and figure out where that takes me for now. Save myself on buying other stuff anyhow.

Thanks for the input guys!
 
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Dex-sludge is tough to remove completly, water flushing alone won't do it, if really bad a new radiator is sometimes in order.

As for flushing, on the 3.1 engine you can easily disconnect the top of the bypass hose on the water pump housing and blast away with a garden hose and pistol nozzle, radiator cap removed and drain cock open. Keep flushing back and forth between the raditor filler neck and the bypass hose until the water runs clear. (I also remove the overglow tank and scub it clean inside and out).

Reattach the bypass hose, close the drain cock and add GM Heavy-duty coolant flush, (Ford Motorcraft version works well too). Follow the instructions, then flush again as per above. Adding in some Arm & Hammer Washing Soda wouldn't hurt either.

The Cascade trick may not work anymore since the government forced phosphates removed from dishwashing detergents recently

As mentioned, the engine may have a failed Lower intake manifold gasket, common 3.1 problem area.
 
Thanks a ton for the input Rock_Hudstone. The system isn't all that bad really but it still has garbage in it, I'll keep your suggestions in mind. A really good thorough cleaning like that should get at least most of it cleaned up fairly well, and thats all I'm really looking for. Sucks to hear the Cascade trick is a wash nowadays though.

I'll have to keep an eye on that LIM gasket though.
 
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone



The Cascade trick may not work anymore since the government forced phosphates removed from dishwashing detergents recently



You can still purchase TSP at any big box/paint store and add alittle to dishwasher soap to get the phosphates back.
 
I drained the dexcool from my fathers 2.2L VUE yesterday after 12 years and 130k miles and it came out in serviceable condition...

I stuck a probe into the radiator and it was also clean.
 
Originally Posted By: Billbert
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
The Cascade trick may not work anymore since the government forced phosphates removed from dishwashing detergents recently

You can still purchase TSP at any big box/paint store and add alittle to dishwasher soap to get the phosphates back.

You have to read the label and make sure you get the TSP-Tri sodium phosphate with phosphate. A lot of stores are now stocking "Phosphate Free" TSP, believe it or not.
 
Originally Posted By: RiceCake

I'll have to keep an eye on that LIM gasket though.
Best way is monitor the coolant reservoir tank, it should stay at more or less the same level, any noticeable coolant drop means a leak somewhere, most likely internal, unless proven otherwise.

Another check is to pull the PCV valve and inspect the underside for evidence of coolant residue, also look into the oil fill hole for residue in the rocker arm area.
 
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
I also remove the overglow overflow tank and scub scrub it clean inside and out.

Darn keyboard...
smirk.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
Originally Posted By: Billbert
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
The Cascade trick may not work anymore since the government forced phosphates removed from dishwashing detergents recently

You can still purchase TSP at any big box/paint store and add alittle to dishwasher soap to get the phosphates back.

You have to read the label and make sure you get the TSP-Tri sodium phosphate with phosphate. A lot of stores are now stocking "Phosphate Free" TSP, believe it or not.


Quote:
Savogran 10622 Trisodium Phosphate (TSP)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AXE7CY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01

Amazon sells it because they ship it, but you can't buy it from Walmarts in some states. that's why the Phosphate Free!

Works great in the laundry too!
 
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Try the Cascade method. I did. Running water through your cooling system won't dislodge the gunk. Think of your engine/radiator as a dishwasher full of plates coated with baked on macaroni and cheese.
The plates will come out spotless. Cascade will work the same for your engine. Non-corrosive, not acid based, it gently scrubs the entire cooling system. As the engine warms up it will have the same agitation of the dishwasher. Has to be the Cascade granular, not the liquid or packets. The longer you leave it in the better it will work (An hour beats a 10 minute flush) Then flush with water once or twice thoroughly. Admittedly, I was a little worried about running pure water during the summer so maybe I ran it for 30 minutes.
I had a 2002 Grand Am 3.4 that I used this method when switching from Dex to Prestone. The 3.1, 3.4 and 3.8l engines shared the same gasket problem from '97-'03. Cascade won't fix that but maybe some of the gunk that comes with it. If the gasket is failing, nothing will help except new gaskets.
 
How about a bypass filter system? Flush with water and let the bypass system catch it. This way no harsh chemicals, and its just cosmetic if the heater is hot and the engine is cooling properly.
 
Ended up just running regular water through the system a number of times to get an idea how bad it was, and honestly it came out pretty fantastic after a few "trips" to operating temperature and back so I'm thinking I'll leave it at that. I appreciate the help though guys. I did remove the overflow though and manually cleaned it out with soapy water and some rage-relieving flailing.

As the car doesn't overheat and the heater blows hot, the owner's happy, and I'll just have to monitor it for any more "chunking" or issues but, it seems after it started getting regular maintenance, that issue is long dead.

If it comes back still grubby I might clean it more agressively. I actually have TSP laying around and I was always sorta fond of the dish detergent trick, so I'll reserve that if and when the system shows me it still has problems. Plus you guys brought up a few very good points about the LIM gasket issues, and I don't wanna play around any more then I have to if I accidentally augment that issue.

Until then, its clean, yellow, and down the road :p
 
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