Hyperlubrication!

[kilou]

Hi,

have you ever heard about hyperlubrication of either engines or transmission? I live in Switzerland and recently I bought a gearbox additive called "MECACYL". This is an hyperlubricant which is said to drastically lower metal-metal friction. I must say that I'm very pleased with the results in my gearbox: it is smooth as silk now

Well MECACYL also have an engine hyperlubricant and I've heard only good things about it and I'm really interested in knowing more about it. In fact there are several societies that manufacture hyperlubricants for automotive or aeronautical application:

- MECACYL
- MECARUN
- MILITEC (Mecarun is the french counter part of Militec).

Do you know more about these type of additives especially how they behave in the long run and if it is dangerous to the engine? I've also heard that once the treatment with such additives is started, one should never stop it or engine wear can occur prematurely..........what do you think about these additives?

 

[MolaKule]

HyperLubrication = Hyper-HYPE.

 

[G-MAN]

My concern would be that an additive like this contains chlorinated paraffins. If it does, it could wind up destroying your gear box.

 

[kilou]

Why would chlorinated parrafin destroy a gearbox? Because it produces acids?

Militec and Mecarun (the same stuff) underlines that they do not contain chlorinated parrafin. However they do contain highly stable chlorate esters. Is it a problem?

I use Mecacyl in my gearbox and the difference is really really amazing! It seems the gearbox is full of butter

 

[rugerman1]

quote:

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Originally posted by kilou:
Why would chlorinated parrafin destroy a gearbox? Because it produces acids?

---

Check out the pics

 

[kilou]

Wow impressive! However I could have confirmation that either Mecacyl, Mecarun and Militec do not use any Chlorinated paraffin.

But they contain chlorate esters. May these turn into acids like chlorinated parafin?

 

[MolaKule]

Chlorinated Esters = Chlorinated paraffins. The paraffins here are defined as high molecular weight esters.

 

[kilou]

Well maybe this is a french-english translation problem. I have the french manual of Mecarun (= Militec). It say that Mecarun contains chlorate esters (I do not know how to exact translate this. In french it is "esthers de chlorate"). But it specifically say that it does not contain chlorinated paraffin! So I believe they are aware of the problem of chlorinated paraffin because they underline that their product does not contain this.

Another point is that either MECACYL, MECARUN or MILITEC are built from the chemical reaction of several base stuff (chlorate esters, EP additives, anticorrosion agents...). I do not know anything in chemistry so please correct me if I'm wrong but they state that after putting all this stuff in a chemical reactor, the end product is pure, organically bounded and uniform! So if this is true it means that the end product would not react the same as its base elements no?

Well it is very strange that nobody yet did an analysis of a bottle of Militec or Mecacyl!!!!!!!! Would it be possible to do so? where?

 

[MolaKule]

What do you mean by analysis?

A VOA won't show you anything.

You would need to run a Falex or other high load test at high temps to see how it fares with other supplements, and then run a sensitive test for chlorinated compounds and hydrochloric acids.

[ June 08, 2004, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[kilou]

Molakule, are you sure that chlorate esters = chlorinated paraffins? If so Militec and Mecarun are lying because they say it does contain the first one but not the second one.

On another point, Militec, Mecarun and Mecacyl all contains antioxydant and natural anticorrosion compounds. Would this mean that despite the use of chlorinated products in their forumla, these products remain safe as antioxydant compounds may stop the acid production?

 

[kilou]

What you guys have to say to this article about chlorine and engine oils?

http://www.mpc-home.com/htmls/Chlorine and Engine Oils.htm

I'd like to know your expert point of view because it is impossible for me to know if these statements are true or fake.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

---

Molakule, are you sure that chlorate esters = chlorinated paraffins? If so Militec and Mecarun are lying because they say it does contain the first one but not the second one.

---

It's a matter of semantics and the context of the chemistry involved.

quote:

---

have you ever heard about hyperlubrication of either engines or transmission? I live in Switzerland and recently I bought a gearbox additive called "MECACYL". This is an hyperlubricant which is said to drastically lower metal-metal friction. I must say that I'm very pleased with the results in my gearbox: it is smooth as silk now

---

I have attempted to clarify the subject of manual transmission shift and detent (especially low temp shifting) by saying that there are three major considerations when considering a lubricant for manual transmissions:

A. Viscosity and viscosity index. You need a light enough fluid for winter shifting and a fluid with a Viscosity Index wide enough so the fluid doesn't thin at high temperatures, in order to maintain a minimum lubricating film.

B. Friction modification - Different transmissions need different friction modifiers.

The same applies to manual transmissions as to Automatic Transmissions.

See:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000315

Especially for manual transmissions, you need FM's that shear at higher rpms (high sliding velocities) for proper synchro engagement, and less shear at lower rpm's.

C. The proper AW/EP additive level to maintain anti-wear and extreme pressure protection. You also need rust inhibitors, metal deactivators, anti-corrosion, and dispersants as well. That is why you need a combination of additives for each function.

It sounds as if the additive you put in has good sliding friction reduction properties, but do we know anything about the AW/EP properties or the effect of the additive on synchronizers, especially the sintered type or the new carbon matrix composite types?

In addition, the additive should have a strong anticorrosion component to fight any potential chlorine attack should the chlorinated ester or paraffin decompose.

What does their technical literature say about all of this?

 

[kilou]

They say absolutely nothing

I know this may be understood as a drawback or as if they want to hide something but I used this product because ALL people who tried it were happy. I haven't seen a single negative post from somebody's who tried it and this turned me on buying this stuff even if I couldn't get all the information I wished to receive.

Basically I know very little about MECACYL (the one I use). However it seems it is almost the same stuff as MECARUN because both description are similar. I only contacted MECACYL support to ask about chlorinated paraffin and they said it doesn't contain this stuff. However as you said it's almost certainly a matter of semantic: I'm pretty sure they also use chlorate esters similary to MECARUN.

All the information I have is about MECARUN which is in fact MILITEC sold in France. The description is by word exactly the same as the one of Militec. All sentences match on both websites and I got confirmation that MECARUN P18=MILITEC. But again all what they say about the product is very little (this is my translation, see Militec website for a better one):

"Mecarun P18 is obtained by chemically reacting synthetic hydrocarbons EP additives. At the beginning of the manufacturing process, Mecarun P18 is a mix of EP additives with natural anticorrosion substances, HIGHLY STABLE CHLORATE ESTERS, anti-wear and anti-oxydant compounds. This mix is introduced in a chemical reactor and when the reaction is over, Mecarun P18 is no more a mix of substances. It becomes an PURE AND UNIFORM ORGANICALLY BOUNDED SUBSTANCE. The P18 is perfectly stable over time....

It is also important to know what is inside Mecarun P18 than to know what is not inside: P18 does NOT contain CHLORINATED PARAFFIN, PTFE, FLUORIN, SOLVENT, VISCOSITY IMPROVERS, MoS2, ZINC, SULFUR, GRAPHITE or any other solid"

All these products state that they lessen the corrosion. I even contacted MECACYL to know if I could use this metal treatment with my transmission oil which is a GL5 and they said that it is highly recommended to do so because MECACYL may inhibit potential corrosive reaction from Sulfur-phosphorus EP additive found in large quantities in GL5 oils! Well maybe it's pure marketing but I doubt they would sell a product which is corrosive and say that it is highly recommended to inhibit corrosion.

Another point is that MECACYL state that its product has a full warranty all over the world......

This is all the information I have but if I consider the article against Mr LePera (see the link on my previous post), it seems that new anti-oxydant and anti-acid technologies exists (oxirane acid scavenging etc). So it may be possible to use even chlorinated paraffins without problematic side effects. It's almost the same for GL5 oils: first they were corrosive to brass synchronizer rings and now pretty all GL5 oils can be used with yellow metal without any problem! Maybe it's the same for chlorinated paraffin but we should now know more about these acid fighting techniques....

At last, the dosage of Mecacyl is 100ml for 3.4 liters of gear oil. Even if you would have put 100ml of pure hdrochloric acid in 3.4 liters of oil, would this sufficiently lower the pH so that corrosion can occur (certainly a stupid question but...)? And even if hydrochloric acid is produced, the gear oil itself contains anti-acid compounds that would neutralize it no?

 

[theguru]

Kilou,

If you wish to use this additive then its up to you. I very much doubt that you will find too many supporters of its use on this board.

Hint. From my observations Molakule is well respected for his Chemistry advice.

Is the maunufacturer going to carry posts on their website negative to the product? I doubt it. What verification do you have of these posters anyway?

How about keeping us informed of your experiences further down the track, say in 50-100,000 miles.

Unfortunately, your post looks suspiciously like a troll. I hope not.

 

[kilou]

Sorry I don't know what means "a troll" but if you think I want to make publicity for hyperlubricants, you're wrong! I've only tried one of them with great results on my gearbox smoothness but then I heard about corrosive effects of these products due to the chlorine content. So it is completely the opposite of making publicity: I fear that the additive I used (Mecacyl) may be corrosive to my gearbox and I'd like to know more about it (and similar products).

The final question would be: SHOULD I IMMEDIATELY DRAIN MY GEARBOX NOW AND POUR SOME FRESH RECOMMENDED OIL ONLY WITHOUT ANY ADDITIVE? Does this sound like publicity?

Well my concern is that many people blame these metal treatments or hyperlubricants because of their chlorine contents. This may be true but despite my very limited and almost inexistant knowledge of chemistry, I believe this is far too easy. I don't like equations like: chlorine + oil=corrosion!

What I'd like to know is whether what Mr George C. Fenell said here http://www.mpc-home.com/htmls/Chlorine and Engine Oils.htm is valid or not. Apparently there exist some acid anihilating techniques that allow the use of chlorine as an extreme pressure additive maybe also in an engine combustion chamber. I took the example of gearoils because when I started investigating the topic, almost everybody told me not to use GL5 gear oil in my gearbox made of brass synchronizer rings. Digging and digging further, I finally found that it was completely misleading and that most if not all actual GL5 oil are non corrosive anymore! So I'd like to dig further and further in the topic of chlorine in engine or gear oil additive to really know whether chlorinated compounds may be used safely without having corrosion problems.

Believe me, I used this additive in my gearbox because I had some troubles with it but I will NEVER put it in my engine until I get a clear confirmation that this stuff is non corrosive even in engine combustion chamber conditions! However I must say that if these kind of additives can be non corrosive, then this would be some of the very best things you may use IMHO and this is why I insist on clarifying the point about chlorinated compounds and corrosion.

So where may we find more answers about these acid anihilating techniques such as oxirane acid scavneging etc?

And last point, if I drain now my gearbox, will this be sufficient to remove all the iron salts that were created by reaction between metal and chlorine compounds? Should I do something special or is it yet too late (the mix is since 1 month in the gearbox)?

Regards

[ June 11, 2004, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: kilou ]

 

[Pablo]

kiluo - I have been watching this thread for awhile.

I'm sure there are some chemistries out there to neutralize the effects of Cl- in your lube. I just must ask "why?" There are plenty of lubes out there that work very well without additives and Cl...so why risk it?

I would not want to guess when these "nuetralizing" chemicals wear out. Remember the Cl- won't just quickly leave a closed system...eventually at best they may be become XCl- salts....so again why?

I don't doubt you when you say your tranny feels better, but this is not science...I tend to think there are more than a couple lubes that after installing you would get a better "feel".

 

[kilou]

I undertand you Pablo and I completely agree with you but you are still wrong on one point: there are not so much 75W80 GL5 gear oils that have a sufficiently low viscosity when cold, suitable for synchronized gearboxes with brass synchronizer rings and moreover that are available in Europe! I've seeked almost 1 full year for a good lub for my gearbox and the only one I found with these caracteristics is TransElf TRJ.

Now even with this oil, my gearbox still felt ugly when cold. Adding the controversial additives solved these problems for me and for many other people I virtually met in France on an automotive forum. This is the good point and obviously the bad point is that this additive contains chlorinated compounds.

Now my question is: for maximum safety, should I drain my oil, and by doing so will I be able to flush out all these iron salts that are formed by reaction of chlorinaed compounds with metal or is it simply too late? As far as I know these salts stuck to the metal and will not be removed even if I drain my oil, no?

I've asked Mecacyl for some explanations about their formulation and I'll let you know if I receive an answer.

 

[porterdog]

quote:

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Originally posted by kilou:
...there are not so much 75W80 GL5 gear oils that have a sufficiently low viscosity when cold, suitable for synchronized gearboxes with brass synchronizer rings and moreover that are available in Europe!

---

Top choice in the states for this type oil is Redline, either their MTL or MT-90; according to the Redline site (redlineoil dot com) they have dealers in Italy and the UK, so it must be somewhat available in Europe. If not, I bet someone from here would be willing to ship it to you...

I wouldn't worry about the Militec product in the immediate term- you might want to swap it out soon that you would have otherwise simply for peace of mind, but I bet 20,000-30,000 km wouldn't be an issue...

$0.02,
Robert

 

[kilou]

Hi Robert,

I've yet contacted Redline but both MTL and MT90 are GL4 oils. They have a GL5 Lightweight oil but they said it is not designed to be used in a synchronized transmission. Moreover even my actual oil has a lower viscosity when cold compared to MTL (it tends to be on the lower side of the 75W). And prices of Redline products are prohibitive in Europe: 3 liters of MTL including shipping would cost me more than 100$.........

No for now I'll wait for the reply of Mecacyl (I hope they will reply...). I'll let you know what they have to say about their product and corrosion. What seems strange is that they insist on the anti-corrosive effects of their products: maybe pure marketing but I want to know more about it.

 

[Pablo]

I know Amsoil Syn series 2000 75W-90 would serve you quite well, but it's only available in UK as far as I know (at Demon Tweaks near London)

So Fuchs, and other places don't have synth 75W-90?