I have restored a 1988 M3 with the motorsport derived S14 engine, I used Mobil1 15W-50 then Castrol TWS 10W-60 and then Shell Rotella T6 5W-40. The motor has been modified with a few 80s era motorsport DTM parts so hp is up to 230, motor revs to 8000rpm and sees a few track days every year, cooling is very sufficient for both oil and radiator. I am looking for something readily available, plenty of anti wear additives and that can handle the stress of the track. Thanks for your thoughts.
BMW M3 the original, oil recommendation
- Thread starter cdeason
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What do you mean by readily available to you?
Like down the street, in a 10 miles radius or shipped to your door in 5 days?
If you have time to wait, Redline and Amsoil are probably your best bet for a good track/dd oil, if you want something you can get at walmart, use t6, m1 15w50, or m1 0w40... 5w40 PU if you can find it at a wally near you.
Like down the street, in a 10 miles radius or shipped to your door in 5 days?
If you have time to wait, Redline and Amsoil are probably your best bet for a good track/dd oil, if you want something you can get at walmart, use t6, m1 15w50, or m1 0w40... 5w40 PU if you can find it at a wally near you.
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JHZR2
Staff member
What does your manual show? If its like my E30 318i (1991), it is this:
"special oils" to me was always synthetic. In NC it is mild enough to not need to worry about things too exotic, and so a 5, 10 or 15w oil would do. I wouldnt think twice about running M1 15w-50 in that engine, though my M42 has loved Rotella 5w-40 in the past. Since the M1 HM 10w-40 is an ACEA A3 oil, you might consider it as well.
"special oils" to me was always synthetic. In NC it is mild enough to not need to worry about things too exotic, and so a 5, 10 or 15w oil would do. I wouldnt think twice about running M1 15w-50 in that engine, though my M42 has loved Rotella 5w-40 in the past. Since the M1 HM 10w-40 is an ACEA A3 oil, you might consider it as well.
Originally Posted By: cdeason
I have restored a 1988 M3 with the motorsport derived S14 engine, I used Mobil1 15W-50 then Castrol TWS 10W-60 and then Shell Rotella T6 5W-40. The motor has been modified with a few 80s era motorsport DTM parts so hp is up to 230, motor revs to 8000rpm and sees a few track days every year, cooling is very sufficient for both oil and radiator. I am looking for something readily available, plenty of anti wear additives and that can handle the stress of the track. Thanks for your thoughts.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ael.aspx
I would get it from Pablo.
Red Line 5W30
PU 0W40
GC 0W30
M-1 0W40
are others I would consider using in that order.
I have restored a 1988 M3 with the motorsport derived S14 engine, I used Mobil1 15W-50 then Castrol TWS 10W-60 and then Shell Rotella T6 5W-40. The motor has been modified with a few 80s era motorsport DTM parts so hp is up to 230, motor revs to 8000rpm and sees a few track days every year, cooling is very sufficient for both oil and radiator. I am looking for something readily available, plenty of anti wear additives and that can handle the stress of the track. Thanks for your thoughts.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ael.aspx
I would get it from Pablo.
Red Line 5W30
PU 0W40
GC 0W30
M-1 0W40
are others I would consider using in that order.
Redline recommends a 10W-40 which would meet all my requirements except value, Rotella T6 has been proven with the subie crowd on track but a wrx does not rev as high, Mobil1 0W-40 would work but I would need to add a quart of Mobil1 Racing to get zinc where this motor needs increasing cost, think I will stick with T6 and then do a UOA after my next track event
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: cdeason
Redline recommends a 10W-40 which would meet all my requirements except value, Rotella T6 has been proven with the subie crowd on track but a wrx does not rev as high, Mobil1 0W-40 would work but I would need to add a quart of Mobil1 Racing to get zinc where this motor needs increasing cost, think I will stick with T6 and then do a UOA after my next track event
Why would you need to add more zinc to M1 0w40? It has plenty. I run it in my M5.
Redline recommends a 10W-40 which would meet all my requirements except value, Rotella T6 has been proven with the subie crowd on track but a wrx does not rev as high, Mobil1 0W-40 would work but I would need to add a quart of Mobil1 Racing to get zinc where this motor needs increasing cost, think I will stick with T6 and then do a UOA after my next track event
Why would you need to add more zinc to M1 0w40? It has plenty. I run it in my M5.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: cdeason
I like to use a min. of 1200 zinc ppm,
Why? What is your basis? Does that engine use flat tapper cams with high spring pressure? If not, you're just worried by misconception and wife's tales.
I like to use a min. of 1200 zinc ppm,
Why? What is your basis? Does that engine use flat tapper cams with high spring pressure? If not, you're just worried by misconception and wife's tales.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: cdeason
I like to use a min. of 1200 zinc ppm,
Why? What is your basis? Does that engine use flat tapper cams with high spring pressure? If not, you're just worried by misconception and wife's tales.
Exactly.
Originally Posted By: cdeason
I like to use a min. of 1200 zinc ppm,
Why? What is your basis? Does that engine use flat tapper cams with high spring pressure? If not, you're just worried by misconception and wife's tales.
Exactly.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: cdeason
Yes to both
Your engine would have very light valve springs in comparison to a flat tappet pushrod motor, which I think is what he was digging at.
You have sliding followers (buckets) that act directly on the valve through the action of the lobe on the camshaft working directly on the bucket. OHC engines run much lighter valve springs than their pushrod counterparts because there is no "chain" of components to keep the play out of.
M1 0w40 is more than robust enough for this application. Remember, it is spec'd for engines with comparable redlines, valvetrains and the like. The Honda S2000 has a very similar valve train and spec's plain old 10w30
Yes to both
Your engine would have very light valve springs in comparison to a flat tappet pushrod motor, which I think is what he was digging at.
You have sliding followers (buckets) that act directly on the valve through the action of the lobe on the camshaft working directly on the bucket. OHC engines run much lighter valve springs than their pushrod counterparts because there is no "chain" of components to keep the play out of.
M1 0w40 is more than robust enough for this application. Remember, it is spec'd for engines with comparable redlines, valvetrains and the like. The Honda S2000 has a very similar valve train and spec's plain old 10w30
I think the oils you've been running are way heavier than necessary. As OVERKILL has suggested M1 0W-40 should be more than thick enough for all round use. I'm sure that it should still be able to provide adequate oil pressure at the track when the oil gets as hot as it's ever going to.
Does the car have an oil pressure/oil temperature gauge?
If you track your car a OP gauge is really manditory and it makes it very easy to optimize the oil viscosity for the way you use your car.
Does the car have an oil pressure/oil temperature gauge?
If you track your car a OP gauge is really manditory and it makes it very easy to optimize the oil viscosity for the way you use your car.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: cdeason
Overkill-thanks for explaining that
I do have a oil temp gauge and a oil pressure warning light but not a oil pressure display. I agree that I should install one.
You are very welcome
My M5 has the same style of valvetrain, though being a V8, has a lower redline.
The V10's on the other hand, and the newer M3 V8, wind to the moon like your old girl
Overkill-thanks for explaining that
I do have a oil temp gauge and a oil pressure warning light but not a oil pressure display. I agree that I should install one.
You are very welcome
My M5 has the same style of valvetrain, though being a V8, has a lower redline.
The V10's on the other hand, and the newer M3 V8, wind to the moon like your old girl
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
What does your manual show? If its like my E30 318i (1991), it is this:
First of all, great forum, just joined and this is my first post.
The image that JHZR2 posted was of interest to me. I remember in the "old days" = the '80's when I first got interested in cars (i.e. old enough to drive), owner's manuals would have recommended viscosity charts like the one JHZR2 posted, showing multiple grades of oil for different environmental conditions.
Later on, the viscosity charts start getting simpler. Fast forward nine years. Comparing just one manufacturer, the chart for my 2000 BMW 528i (E39) showed just three viscosity grades: 0W-x and 5W-x from -20 to +86ºF [-30 to +30ºC] and 10W-x from -5ºC on up.
Fast-forward another nine years, the manual for my 2009 BMW 335i (with the hot running N54 twin-turbo engine) has NO viscosity chart. It only lists approved viscosity grades 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30 and 5W-40 (with 5W-30 being the "standard" grade). "These oils can be used for driving at all outside temperatures."
BTW, my car has an oil temperature gage, and it stabilizes at 240ºF once the oil is fully warmed (so far it has not exceeded that, but my car has the oil cooler). My ambient temp range is a minimum of 40ºF and a maximum of 110ºF (Los Angeles area).
Some people theorize that newer engines have "tighter tolerances" and require thinner oil. But I suspect this "dumbing down" has nothing to do with that.
I think the whole things is motivated by a need to meet CAFE standards, and the thinner oil perhaps giving a 1% increase in fuel efficiency. I suspect that the manufacturer's are required to only specify the thinner oils in order to maintain their MPG ratings.
BMW elects to pay the "gas guzzler fine" for not meeting CAFE and I suspect that's probably the only reason why they can even mention 0W-40 and 5W-40 grades.
Also, the knowledge is withheld because they don't want us working on our own cars anymore. "Just bring it in and let the 'pros' do it for you".
Am I on to something here or am I full of it?
What does your manual show? If its like my E30 318i (1991), it is this:
First of all, great forum, just joined and this is my first post.
The image that JHZR2 posted was of interest to me. I remember in the "old days" = the '80's when I first got interested in cars (i.e. old enough to drive), owner's manuals would have recommended viscosity charts like the one JHZR2 posted, showing multiple grades of oil for different environmental conditions.
Later on, the viscosity charts start getting simpler. Fast forward nine years. Comparing just one manufacturer, the chart for my 2000 BMW 528i (E39) showed just three viscosity grades: 0W-x and 5W-x from -20 to +86ºF [-30 to +30ºC] and 10W-x from -5ºC on up.
Fast-forward another nine years, the manual for my 2009 BMW 335i (with the hot running N54 twin-turbo engine) has NO viscosity chart. It only lists approved viscosity grades 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30 and 5W-40 (with 5W-30 being the "standard" grade). "These oils can be used for driving at all outside temperatures."
BTW, my car has an oil temperature gage, and it stabilizes at 240ºF once the oil is fully warmed (so far it has not exceeded that, but my car has the oil cooler). My ambient temp range is a minimum of 40ºF and a maximum of 110ºF (Los Angeles area).
Some people theorize that newer engines have "tighter tolerances" and require thinner oil. But I suspect this "dumbing down" has nothing to do with that.
I think the whole things is motivated by a need to meet CAFE standards, and the thinner oil perhaps giving a 1% increase in fuel efficiency. I suspect that the manufacturer's are required to only specify the thinner oils in order to maintain their MPG ratings.
BMW elects to pay the "gas guzzler fine" for not meeting CAFE and I suspect that's probably the only reason why they can even mention 0W-40 and 5W-40 grades.
Also, the knowledge is withheld because they don't want us working on our own cars anymore. "Just bring it in and let the 'pros' do it for you".
Am I on to something here or am I full of it?
Originally Posted By: cdeason
I have restored a 1988 M3 with the motorsport derived S14 engine, I used Mobil1 15W-50 then Castrol TWS 10W-60 and then Shell Rotella T6 5W-40. The motor has been modified with a few 80s era motorsport DTM parts so hp is up to 230, motor revs to 8000rpm and sees a few track days every year, cooling is very sufficient for both oil and radiator. I am looking for something readily available, plenty of anti wear additives and that can handle the stress of the track. Thanks for your thoughts.
The standard recommendation is 10w-40 in these engines but as yours is modified and you are tracking it then a 10w-50 or 15w-50 is maybe a good shout.
I would avoid 10w-60 as I find engines don't rev as freely in the ones I've tried it in and the oil pressure was too high (was hitting max oil pressure a 2000 rpm). In engines designed for 10w-60 this is obviously not an issue.
Motul and Fuchs/Silkolene do some good PAO/Ester oils with approx 1100 ppm zddp in them that are well liked in the track day/racing communities.
Amsoil do some excellent oils as well
However if 10w-40 is what you want then you could do what I do with my tuned Austin A35 and use motorbike oil as they have high ZDDP and are well engineered full synthetic 10w-40's
Riggaz
I have restored a 1988 M3 with the motorsport derived S14 engine, I used Mobil1 15W-50 then Castrol TWS 10W-60 and then Shell Rotella T6 5W-40. The motor has been modified with a few 80s era motorsport DTM parts so hp is up to 230, motor revs to 8000rpm and sees a few track days every year, cooling is very sufficient for both oil and radiator. I am looking for something readily available, plenty of anti wear additives and that can handle the stress of the track. Thanks for your thoughts.
The standard recommendation is 10w-40 in these engines but as yours is modified and you are tracking it then a 10w-50 or 15w-50 is maybe a good shout.
I would avoid 10w-60 as I find engines don't rev as freely in the ones I've tried it in and the oil pressure was too high (was hitting max oil pressure a 2000 rpm). In engines designed for 10w-60 this is obviously not an issue.
Motul and Fuchs/Silkolene do some good PAO/Ester oils with approx 1100 ppm zddp in them that are well liked in the track day/racing communities.
Amsoil do some excellent oils as well
However if 10w-40 is what you want then you could do what I do with my tuned Austin A35 and use motorbike oil as they have high ZDDP and are well engineered full synthetic 10w-40's
Riggaz
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Motul and Fuchs/Silkolene do some good PAO/Ester oils with approx 1100 ppm zddp in them that are well liked in the track day/racing communities.
Amsoil do some excellent oils as well
AGREED, but like Red Line, LAT, RP Racing, etc. they do not meet his availability/price point criteria.
(I personally would use the new 300V Trophy 0W-40 in that little beast.
)
Motul and Fuchs/Silkolene do some good PAO/Ester oils with approx 1100 ppm zddp in them that are well liked in the track day/racing communities.
Amsoil do some excellent oils as well
AGREED, but like Red Line, LAT, RP Racing, etc. they do not meet his availability/price point criteria.
(I personally would use the new 300V Trophy 0W-40 in that little beast.
Quote:
1988 M3 with the motorsport derived S14 engine
I would probably stick with the TWS. 10w60 was made with this engine in mind.
I would call Turner Motorsport in the US or if you want the absolute real skinny call or email Tauber Motorsport in Germany.
They have built and raced more BMW M cars than most people have ever seen.
You can believe these people they have no thinner is better agenda, they care about keeping the engine together end of story.
Your Engine on Taubers dyno.
http://www.tauber-motorsport.de/tauber_motorsport.html
1988 M3 with the motorsport derived S14 engine
I would probably stick with the TWS. 10w60 was made with this engine in mind.
I would call Turner Motorsport in the US or if you want the absolute real skinny call or email Tauber Motorsport in Germany.
They have built and raced more BMW M cars than most people have ever seen.
You can believe these people they have no thinner is better agenda, they care about keeping the engine together end of story.
Your Engine on Taubers dyno.
http://www.tauber-motorsport.de/tauber_motorsport.html
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
1988 M3 with the motorsport derived S14 engine
I would probably stick with the TWS. 10w60 was made with this engine in mind.
I would call Turner Motorsport in the US or if you want the absolute real skinny call or email Tauber Motorsport in Germany.
They have built and raced more BMW M cars than most people have ever seen.
You can believe these people they have no thinner is better agenda, they care about keeping the engine together end of story.
Your Engine on Taubers dyno.
http://www.tauber-motorsport.de/tauber_motorsport.html
His car is the original 1980's M3. The 10w-60 is made for the modern V8 M5's
Quote:
1988 M3 with the motorsport derived S14 engine
I would probably stick with the TWS. 10w60 was made with this engine in mind.
I would call Turner Motorsport in the US or if you want the absolute real skinny call or email Tauber Motorsport in Germany.
They have built and raced more BMW M cars than most people have ever seen.
You can believe these people they have no thinner is better agenda, they care about keeping the engine together end of story.
Your Engine on Taubers dyno.
http://www.tauber-motorsport.de/tauber_motorsport.html
His car is the original 1980's M3. The 10w-60 is made for the modern V8 M5's
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