Dual clutch transmission fluids - so few options

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I have a 2012 Ford Focus with the 6 speed automatic DCT. Obviously, it comes pre-filled with Ford's own DCT fluid. I was curious to know more about the formulation.

  • What base stock is used
  • What additives make this unique to other transmission fluids

I'm assuming this is a dry clutch setup, so the use of friction modifiers would be tolerated, unlike motorcycle wet clutch configurations.

or...

Is it a wet clutch setup that would prohibit the use of friction modifiers.

Fluid product link

Dual Clutch Fluid MSDS

Dual Clutch Fluid VOA
ed48b1ba.jpg


To my knowledge, there are little to no options of fluid choices for DCT applications like this. VW DCT offerings seem to be much more viscous than Ford's version.
 
I'd definitely run ford's fluid for an application like that.

What makes you think that the basestock has anything to do with fluid performance in this application? The real synthetic argument is old.
 
The base stock question is pure curiosity, I'm more focused on composition of additives.

It's actually more old to hear people think that hydrocracked petroleum is even in the same league.

Group III proponents may have a legit argument with newer GTL offerings, but that has yet to be widely proven. Time will tell, and I have plenty of that.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I'd definitely run ford's fluid for an application like that.

What makes you think that the basestock has anything to do with fluid performance in this application? The real synthetic argument is old.


Agree 1000% I'd ONLY run Fords fluid in this app.

Too new and WAY to complicated to risk using anything else.

Told this to my Niece who has a new 2012 Focus.
 
Originally Posted By: Unleashedbeast
The base stock question is pure curiosity, I'm more focused on composition of additives.

It's actually more old to hear people think that hydrocracked petroleum is even in the same league.

Group III proponents may have a legit argument with newer GTL offerings, but that has yet to be widely proven. Time will tell, and I have plenty of that.



But for all practical intents and purposes, it is, which is why the argument is so funny... Especially for typical NA usage and with the additization that is available today.
 
Your Ford has a dry clutch system.

I bought Ford Specification WSS-M2C200-D2 (it's only $20) for this fluid, and while it' copyrighted to death, I can say that it's a genuine PAO-based product with excellent cold-flow properties. I have read that the fluid was originally formulated by Castrol Europe for Ford and was released originally as BOT-341. It was later renamed to Castrol Syntrans FE 75W ( http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/B2595F482E5CEF9080257840006395E8/$File/BPXE-8EGFK8_0.pdf ). Presumably for the US and Canada, it's blended in the US under a license.

The Syntrans data sheet is consistent with the corresponding elements of the Ford engineering spec.
 
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Originally Posted By: jaj
Your Ford has a dry clutch system.

I bought Ford Specification WSS-M2C200-D2 (it's only $20) for this fluid, and while it' copyrighted to death, I can say that it's a genuine PAO-based product with excellent cold-flow properties. I have read that the fluid was originally formulated by Castrol Europe for Ford and was released originally as BOT-341. It was later renamed to Castrol Syntrans FE 75W ( http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/B2595F482E5CEF9080257840006395E8/$File/BPXE-8EGFK8_0.pdf ). Presumably for the US and Canada, it's blended in the US under a license.

The Syntrans data sheet is consistent with the corresponding elements of the Ford engineering spec.


Mitsubishi DIA-QUEEN SSTF-1 was revealed to be Castrol BOT341 in evoxforums.com and evolutionm.net. The reason is that in Isreal, Mitsubishi dealerships all sell the Castrol branded stuff.

When you add 1 to the cart it is ~110 USD. The bottle contains 4L of fluid.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
But for all practical intents and purposes, it is, which is why the argument is so funny... Especially for typical NA usage and with the additization that is available today.


Group III loses in
  • NOACK %
  • Long term oxidation stability
  • Cold flow performance
  • Frictional Coefficient


Group III wins in
  • Retaining contaminants in suspension
  • Cost of manufacturing


No comparison if you are looking for an extended drain lubricant, which I always am. You get what you pay for. *cough* I mean, you get less these days than what you are actually paying for from the "big guys".


Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Try Pentonsin website. Good chance that they make the fluid.


They make three different versions, each one for a different manufacturer. Obviously, Ford isn't one of them.

FFL-2 Audi/VW

FFL-3 Porsche

FFL-4 BMW

The primary differences must be in the additive packages.

Originally Posted By: jaj
Your Ford has a dry clutch system.

I bought Ford Specification WSS-M2C200-D2 (it's only $20) for this fluid, and while it' copyrighted to death, I can say that it's a genuine PAO-based product with excellent cold-flow properties. I have read that the fluid was originally formulated by Castrol Europe for Ford and was released originally as BOT-341. It was later renamed to Castrol Syntrans FE 75W ( http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/B2595F482E5CEF9080257840006395E8/$File/BPXE-8EGFK8_0.pdf ). Presumably for the US and Canada, it's blended in the US under a license.

The Syntrans data sheet is consistent with the corresponding elements of the Ford engineering spec.



Castrol Syntrans FE 75W

This is a great answer, and closer to what I'm looking to discuss....the origins of the formulation and who manufacturers it.

Originally Posted By: Ken2
Quote:
dry clutch setup, so the use of friction modifiers would be tolerated, unlike motorcycle wet clutch configurations.
Even that's not set in stone. Schaeffer's #707 motorcycle oil passes the JASO-MA2 wet clutch test, and also proudly contains two friction modifiers, "Micron Moly" and proprietary "Penetro."
http://www.schaefferoil.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/TD Sheets/707.pdf


Interesting information about wet clutch lubricant applications. I've never known a fluid to contain them for this application. Thanks for the link.
 
The chemical signature of the additives in Ford's DCT fluid is very similar to the chemical signature for Ford's 75w-90 XT-M5-QS Full Synthetic Gear Oil. It's almost like there's a thin version (QDC) and a thick version (QS) built around the same additives.
 
Molakule and Jaj are spot on with their replies. Have been following the Ford MTF discussions for a long time on the Mustang sites.

The Ford engineers felt the thinner DCT fluid was still up to the task, and used it as a replacement fluid even in the Mustangs M6 if there was a complaint about sticky cold shifting. Even a TSB on it. Must be pretty stout, because it still gets hot as [censored] in Chicago and Montana in summer.
 
What is the major difference in the add-pack comparing DCT and ATF fluids? Would Red Line D4 / D6 actually work? What issues could this cause?

The only difference I know of would be the friction-modifiers used to work with the clutch-discs (most DCT are wet-clutch) and the higher localized heating in the clutch. Everything else should be very similar to ATF requirements I would think.
 
Quote:

What is the major difference in the add-pack comparing DCT and ATF fluids? Would Red Line D4 / D6 actually work? What issues could this cause?


As I stated above, the additive package is very much a Manual Transmission Lube additive package. This is simply a low viscosity MTF for a synchromesh transmission. This additive package has extra Anti-wear additives and friction modifiers specifically for this DCT.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1231182#Post1231182

Quote:
Synchromesh Manual Transmission lubes we're developed specifically for manual transmissions and transaxles, and not for differentials or industrial gear boxes.

A synchromesh fluid usually refers to a specialized fluid that contains special friction modification additives for transmissions that use mechanical synchronizer assemblies; those synchronizer assemblies may be made of carbon fiber composites, sintered metal, brass/bronze, or steel-steel materials.

Most Differential and Manual Transmission oils contain sulfur-phosphorous EP packages. GL4-rated oils usually contain about 40% to 60% of the amount of Differential lubricant EP’s. Therefore, both MT and Differential lubes contain the same EP additives, just in different strengths or additive ratios.

GL4 does NOT refer to any specific viscosity, but it refers to a level of AW/EP protection for the gearing and bearings in a transmission, so GL4 has come to infer a gear lube with the above percentages of EP additive. The exception of course is ATF fluid used in some of the newer transmissions.

Both differential and manual transmission fluids use chemical compounds that subdue or inhibit the corrosive effects of sulfur and phosphorous such as calcium, magnesium, boron, potassium or other basic compounds. Emulsifiers, corrosion and rust inhibitors also are included to do their respective jobs.

Differential lubes use friction modifiers to reduce mechanical and fluid friction and add some anti-shudder friction modifier for limited slip; both very different chemical compounds.

Manual Transmission fluids use a different friction modifier specifically designed for synchro engagement, a modifier that does NOT contain the same chemical compounds as do differential lubes.

Ever since the synchromesh-type fluids appeared on the scene (such as the GM Synchromesh fluid), drivers have had better shifting due to better synchro engagement, attributed to the specialized friction modifier used in these lubes. This specialized friction modifier is better for metallic and composite synchros in terms of shifting and life.

You also have to consider the viscosity of the fluid that the transmission was designed for. The spectrum now ranges from ATF to 75W90 viscosities and therefore a synchromesh GL4 Manual Transmission Lubricant (MTL) can be any viscosity from 7.0 cSt (ATF equivalent viscosity) to a 75W90 type viscosity of approx. 14.5 cSt, and contains special friction modification additives for synchronizer assembly engagement.

Current MTL GL4 viscosities are:

1. ATF viscosity Series; 6.5 to 8.5 cSt (Equivalent ATF viscosity; Note: ATF additive package is weak compared to most GL4's)

2. Synchromesh viscosity Series; 9.3 - 9.6 cSt (such as Amsoils MTF, Texaco's MTL, Pennzoil's Synchromesh, GM and Chrysler's Synchromesh)

3. 75W85 viscosity Series; 9.8 to 11.5 cSt ( Redline's MTL, RP's Synchromax LT, Nissan's MTL, Honda MTL, Castrol Syntorq LT)

4. 75W90 viscosity Series; 12.8 to 14.5 cSt (Amsoil's MTG, Redline's MT-90).

A differential lube may not kill your manual transmission in your light truck or car, but it is not the optimum lube for it. A differential 75W90 (GL5) lubricant usually has a higher viscosity than does an mtl in the same advertised weight.

Many if not most GL5 fluids rated for differentials may also be rated as MT-1. Some manufacturers, such as Amsoil®, state the following:

“Recommended for use in differentials, manual transmissions and other gear applications requiring any of the following specifications: API GL-5, MT-1, MIL-PRF-2105E, Dana SHAES 234 (Formerly Eaton PS-037), Mack GO-J, or the differential (hypoid) gear oil specifications from all domestic and foreign manufacturers such as GM, Ford and Daimler Chrysler. Can also be used in axles where an API GL-4 lubricant is recommended.”

This MT-1 rating refers to use in heavy duty truck transmissions, and as such, does NOT necessarily mean that this fluid will function properly in a light truck or car synchromesh transmission.




In fact this looks very much like the MTFGlide fluid I developed in 2003 for our former company.


So none of the ATF fluids will work in the DCT nor should they be used.

The major issue would be accelerated wear if you used conventional ATF's.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
As I stated above, the additive package is very much a Manual Transmission Lube additive package. This is simply a low viscosity MTF for a synchromesh transmission. This additive package has extra Anti-wear additives and friction modifiers specifically for this DCT.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1231182#Post1231182

...

The major issue would be accelerated wear if you used conventional ATF's.


So a shear-stable GL-4 fluid like Red Line D4 (7.0cSt) or D6 (6.0cSt) might be applicable? The only issue I see is the friction-modifiers needed for wet-clutch applications might be different than the friction-modifiers used for syncros.
 
Quote:
So a shear-stable GL-4 fluid like Red Line D4 (7.0cSt) or D6 (6.0cSt) might be applicable? The only issue I see is the friction-modifiers needed for wet-clutch applications might be different than the friction-modifiers used for syncros.


NO, they are NOT applicable.

There is more to a fluid's application than the viscosity alone.


Martinq, please re-read the MTL info again. The three important variables are Friction Modification, AW additives, and then the viscosity.

The Anti-wear additive package in the FORD MTL is more robust than found in any ATF.

Quote:

So none of the ATF fluids will work in the DCT nor should they be used.

The major issue would be accelerated wear if you used ANY ATF's.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
NO, they are NOT applicable.

There is more to a fluid's application than the viscosity alone.

Martinq, please re-read the MTL info again. The three important variables are Friction Modification, AW additives, and then the viscosity.

The Anti-wear additive package in the FORD MTL is more robust than found in any ATF.

I understand that, but I don't know of any ATF fluids that are also GL-4 rated. Just curious about the differences in add-packs and not for the Ford MTL, but DCT fluids (wet-clutch) in general.
 
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Quote:
What is the major difference in the add-pack comparing DCT and ATF fluids? Would Red Line D4 / D6 actually work? What issues could this cause?



Let's brush aside the GL4 rating as it is not germaine to the topic.

I guess I misunderstood your question in light of the fact that the main topic here is the dry clutch DCT fluid VOA in the first post.

I think you are asking about the wet-clutch DCT's as well?

The wet-clutch DCT's would have an additive package and base oil combination similar to the Redline D6.

As far as using D6 as a replacement fluid in a wet-clutch DCT, you would have to ask Dave at Redline.
 
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