So I see Moly as a key ingredient to reducing friction in engine oils. Other than reducing friction, does Moly effect the oil viscosity?
What is effect of Moly in Engine oil?
- Thread starter chiks
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MolaKule
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Moly or soluble MoDTC is not a key ingredient but one of the many chemical compounds added to base oils to enhance the overall formulation. It is usually part of the PI or performance improver chemical soup.
Moly doesn't affect the viscosity.
Moly is simply one of the group of metallo-organic compounds found in lubricants. Molybdenum dithiocarbamate Mo(dtc) seems almost exclusively to be used to obtain friction reduction.
It is primarily a Friction reducer but not the only one seen in PCMO's. A partial ester called GMO is another.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2673619#Post2673619
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=530321#Post530321
Moly doesn't affect the viscosity.
Moly is simply one of the group of metallo-organic compounds found in lubricants. Molybdenum dithiocarbamate Mo(dtc) seems almost exclusively to be used to obtain friction reduction.
It is primarily a Friction reducer but not the only one seen in PCMO's. A partial ester called GMO is another.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2673619#Post2673619
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=530321#Post530321
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you wrote and I quote
Quote:
organometallic compounds (such as Molybdenum dithiophosphates, Molybdenum dithiocarbamates, Antimony dithiocarbamates) have shown their ability to build and maintain strong boundary lubrication films under severe load conditions and heat.
Does the feature of providing a strong boundary lubrication film also means that it increases drag as it will not shear/break easily, especially when used in the engine oil?
edit: I guess I should have read more...you already provided the answer here. Should I read it as it does not increase the drag?
Quote:
The exceptions are the organometallic compounds listed above. Friction modification films consist of orderly, close-packed arrays of multimolecular "whiskers," loosely adhering to each other. The outer layers are sheared-off easily, allowing for low coefficient of friction. The phenomena can be described as a deck of plastic coated playing cards lying on the table and sliding off the top card easily.
Quote:
organometallic compounds (such as Molybdenum dithiophosphates, Molybdenum dithiocarbamates, Antimony dithiocarbamates) have shown their ability to build and maintain strong boundary lubrication films under severe load conditions and heat.
Does the feature of providing a strong boundary lubrication film also means that it increases drag as it will not shear/break easily, especially when used in the engine oil?
edit: I guess I should have read more...you already provided the answer here. Should I read it as it does not increase the drag?
Quote:
The exceptions are the organometallic compounds listed above. Friction modification films consist of orderly, close-packed arrays of multimolecular "whiskers," loosely adhering to each other. The outer layers are sheared-off easily, allowing for low coefficient of friction. The phenomena can be described as a deck of plastic coated playing cards lying on the table and sliding off the top card easily.
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Originally Posted By: chiks
Should I read it as it does not increase the drag?
Why would it increase drag? If it's reducing friction, then this should in fact reduce drag.
Should I read it as it does not increase the drag?
Why would it increase drag? If it's reducing friction, then this should in fact reduce drag.
High doses of moly will reduce the CoF of motor oil and reduce fuel consumption.
The Japanese moly additive supplier, Adeka Sakura, claimed an average increase in fuel economy of 1.7% when their Adeka Sakura-Lube when added to motor oil in concentrations of 700 ppm.
The SM version of the Toyota 0W-20 and Idemitsu 0W-20 OEM oils contained this additive at concentration levels close to this.
Red Line oils also contain high moly concentrations and not surprisingly claim very low CoF levels for their oils.
The Japanese moly additive supplier, Adeka Sakura, claimed an average increase in fuel economy of 1.7% when their Adeka Sakura-Lube when added to motor oil in concentrations of 700 ppm.
The SM version of the Toyota 0W-20 and Idemitsu 0W-20 OEM oils contained this additive at concentration levels close to this.
Red Line oils also contain high moly concentrations and not surprisingly claim very low CoF levels for their oils.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
High doses of moly will reduce the CoF of motor oil and reduce fuel consumption.
The Japanese moly additive supplier, Adeka Sakura, claimed an average increase in fuel economy of 1.7% when their Adeka Sakura-Lube when added to motor oil in concentrations of 700 ppm.
The SM version of the Toyota 0W-20 and Idemitsu 0W-20 OEM oils contained this additive at concentration levels close to this.
Red Line oils also contain high moly concentrations and not surprisingly claim very low CoF levels for their oils.
I also want to add that the fuel economy improvements and wear reduction is not only due to the Moly concentration - although this is still very important. When using moly as a friction modifier it is also enhanced by the presence of other ingredients such as ZDDP. Studies have shown that the CoF reduction is limited over a long oil service life even though there is still a fairly high concentration of un-used moly still left in the oil; the cut off being about 4000 miles of use. When used together MoDTC + ZDDP work much better than a high concentration of MoDTC alone. Antioxidants can also help with ensuring the MoDTC continues to perform beyond the 4000 mile mark.
There are also many other EP/AW chemistries (as Molakule alluded to) that are equally effective, however in some cases much less cost effective for oil formulators.
High doses of moly will reduce the CoF of motor oil and reduce fuel consumption.
The Japanese moly additive supplier, Adeka Sakura, claimed an average increase in fuel economy of 1.7% when their Adeka Sakura-Lube when added to motor oil in concentrations of 700 ppm.
The SM version of the Toyota 0W-20 and Idemitsu 0W-20 OEM oils contained this additive at concentration levels close to this.
Red Line oils also contain high moly concentrations and not surprisingly claim very low CoF levels for their oils.
I also want to add that the fuel economy improvements and wear reduction is not only due to the Moly concentration - although this is still very important. When using moly as a friction modifier it is also enhanced by the presence of other ingredients such as ZDDP. Studies have shown that the CoF reduction is limited over a long oil service life even though there is still a fairly high concentration of un-used moly still left in the oil; the cut off being about 4000 miles of use. When used together MoDTC + ZDDP work much better than a high concentration of MoDTC alone. Antioxidants can also help with ensuring the MoDTC continues to perform beyond the 4000 mile mark.
There are also many other EP/AW chemistries (as Molakule alluded to) that are equally effective, however in some cases much less cost effective for oil formulators.
My concern was that Moly could have low CoF, but only if used in short strokes, not long ones like in a piston traveling up and down the cylinder. In long strokes, if it acts like a rubber band then it would be dragging.
Originally Posted By: chiks
My concern was that Moly could have low CoF, but only if used in short strokes, not long ones like in a piston traveling up and down the cylinder. In long strokes, if it acts like a rubber band then it would be dragging.
Moly interacts with the metal surfaces inside your engine to limit friction and wear under boundary conditions (where metal to metal contact is occurring.) I could be misunderstanding your concern, but I don't think anyone would describe what moly does as "acting like a rubber band".
My concern was that Moly could have low CoF, but only if used in short strokes, not long ones like in a piston traveling up and down the cylinder. In long strokes, if it acts like a rubber band then it would be dragging.
Moly interacts with the metal surfaces inside your engine to limit friction and wear under boundary conditions (where metal to metal contact is occurring.) I could be misunderstanding your concern, but I don't think anyone would describe what moly does as "acting like a rubber band".
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
High doses of moly will reduce the CoF of motor oil and reduce fuel consumption.
The Japanese moly additive supplier, Adeka Sakura, claimed an average increase in fuel economy of 1.7% when their Adeka Sakura-Lube when added to motor oil in concentrations of 700 ppm.
The SM version of the Toyota 0W-20 and Idemitsu 0W-20 OEM oils contained this additive at concentration levels close to this.
Red Line oils also contain high moly concentrations and not surprisingly claim very low CoF levels for their oils.
I also want to add that the fuel economy improvements and wear reduction is not only due to the Moly concentration - although this is still very important. When using moly as a friction modifier it is also enhanced by the presence of other ingredients such as ZDDP. Studies have shown that the CoF reduction is limited over a long oil service life even though there is still a fairly high concentration of un-used moly still left in the oil; the cut off being about 4000 miles of use. When used together MoDTC + ZDDP work much better than a high concentration of MoDTC alone. Antioxidants can also help with ensuring the MoDTC continues to perform beyond the 4000 mile mark.
There are also many other EP/AW chemistries (as Molakule alluded to) that are equally effective, however in some cases much less cost effective for oil formulators.
Since virtually all oil formulations today rely on ZDDP as the cornerstone for their AW package moly plays an enhancing role.
(the ester based FUCHS Titan GT-1 0W-20 is a noteable exception that contains no ZDDP or moly. It's a race tested PCMO).
I didn't know the effectiveness of MoDTC decreased with mileage and was consumed in service. That may explain why very high doses of moly are no longer seen in most SN GF-5 oils where it was present in their GF-4 formulations. Part of the higher deposit control requirements perhaps.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
High doses of moly will reduce the CoF of motor oil and reduce fuel consumption.
The Japanese moly additive supplier, Adeka Sakura, claimed an average increase in fuel economy of 1.7% when their Adeka Sakura-Lube when added to motor oil in concentrations of 700 ppm.
The SM version of the Toyota 0W-20 and Idemitsu 0W-20 OEM oils contained this additive at concentration levels close to this.
Red Line oils also contain high moly concentrations and not surprisingly claim very low CoF levels for their oils.
I also want to add that the fuel economy improvements and wear reduction is not only due to the Moly concentration - although this is still very important. When using moly as a friction modifier it is also enhanced by the presence of other ingredients such as ZDDP. Studies have shown that the CoF reduction is limited over a long oil service life even though there is still a fairly high concentration of un-used moly still left in the oil; the cut off being about 4000 miles of use. When used together MoDTC + ZDDP work much better than a high concentration of MoDTC alone. Antioxidants can also help with ensuring the MoDTC continues to perform beyond the 4000 mile mark.
There are also many other EP/AW chemistries (as Molakule alluded to) that are equally effective, however in some cases much less cost effective for oil formulators.
Since virtually all oil formulations today rely on ZDDP as the cornerstone for their AW package moly plays an enhancing role.
(the ester based FUCHS Titan GT-1 0W-20 is a noteable exception that contains no ZDDP or moly. It's a race tested PCMO).
I didn't know the effectiveness of MoDTC decreased with mileage and was consumed in service. That may explain why very high doses of moly are no longer seen in most SN GF-5 oils where it was present in their GF-4 formulations. Part of the higher deposit control requirements perhaps.
http://www.adk.co.jp/en/chemical/pickup/lib/pickup01.html
Here is a chart of their proprietary additive.
I am referencing it to show the general improvement .
It shows a nice decrease in friction at idle, but goes down as speed increases. I noted a bit smoother idling with Lubro Moly as well.
I don't think these additives make the oil slipperier, but bind/bond to the surface of metals, and friction deceases between moving parts under load.
BTW, they are Korean company, not Japanese. Adeka Korea
Here is a chart of their proprietary additive.
I am referencing it to show the general improvement .
It shows a nice decrease in friction at idle, but goes down as speed increases. I noted a bit smoother idling with Lubro Moly as well.
I don't think these additives make the oil slipperier, but bind/bond to the surface of metals, and friction deceases between moving parts under load.
BTW, they are Korean company, not Japanese. Adeka Korea
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
High doses of moly will reduce the CoF of motor oil and reduce fuel consumption.
The Japanese moly additive supplier, Adeka Sakura, claimed an average increase in fuel economy of 1.7% when their Adeka Sakura-Lube when added to motor oil in concentrations of 700 ppm.
The SM version of the Toyota 0W-20 and Idemitsu 0W-20 OEM oils contained this additive at concentration levels close to this.
Red Line oils also contain high moly concentrations and not surprisingly claim very low CoF levels for their oils.
I also want to add that the fuel economy improvements and wear reduction is not only due to the Moly concentration - although this is still very important. When using moly as a friction modifier it is also enhanced by the presence of other ingredients such as ZDDP. Studies have shown that the CoF reduction is limited over a long oil service life even though there is still a fairly high concentration of un-used moly still left in the oil; the cut off being about 4000 miles of use. When used together MoDTC + ZDDP work much better than a high concentration of MoDTC alone. Antioxidants can also help with ensuring the MoDTC continues to perform beyond the 4000 mile mark.
There are also many other EP/AW chemistries (as Molakule alluded to) that are equally effective, however in some cases much less cost effective for oil formulators.
Since virtually all oil formulations today rely on ZDDP as the cornerstone for their AW package moly plays an enhancing role.
(the ester based FUCHS Titan GT-1 0W-20 is a noteable exception that contains no ZDDP or moly. It's a race tested PCMO).
I didn't know the effectiveness of MoDTC decreased with mileage and was consumed in service. That may explain why very high doses of moly are no longer seen in most SN GF-5 oils where it was present in their GF-4 formulations. Part of the higher deposit control requirements perhaps.
Perhaps this explain most ACEA A3 oil does not bear start burst symbol because the energy conserving effectiveness does not extended to the full length of oil services.
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
High doses of moly will reduce the CoF of motor oil and reduce fuel consumption.
The Japanese moly additive supplier, Adeka Sakura, claimed an average increase in fuel economy of 1.7% when their Adeka Sakura-Lube when added to motor oil in concentrations of 700 ppm.
The SM version of the Toyota 0W-20 and Idemitsu 0W-20 OEM oils contained this additive at concentration levels close to this.
Red Line oils also contain high moly concentrations and not surprisingly claim very low CoF levels for their oils.
I also want to add that the fuel economy improvements and wear reduction is not only due to the Moly concentration - although this is still very important. When using moly as a friction modifier it is also enhanced by the presence of other ingredients such as ZDDP. Studies have shown that the CoF reduction is limited over a long oil service life even though there is still a fairly high concentration of un-used moly still left in the oil; the cut off being about 4000 miles of use. When used together MoDTC + ZDDP work much better than a high concentration of MoDTC alone. Antioxidants can also help with ensuring the MoDTC continues to perform beyond the 4000 mile mark.
There are also many other EP/AW chemistries (as Molakule alluded to) that are equally effective, however in some cases much less cost effective for oil formulators.
Since virtually all oil formulations today rely on ZDDP as the cornerstone for their AW package moly plays an enhancing role.
(the ester based FUCHS Titan GT-1 0W-20 is a noteable exception that contains no ZDDP or moly. It's a race tested PCMO).
I didn't know the effectiveness of MoDTC decreased with mileage and was consumed in service. That may explain why very high doses of moly are no longer seen in most SN GF-5 oils where it was present in their GF-4 formulations. Part of the higher deposit control requirements perhaps.
Perhaps this explain most ACEA A3 oil does not bear start burst symbol because the energy conserving effectiveness does not extended to the full length of oil services.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
http://www.adk.co.jp/en/chemical/pickup/lib/pickup01.html
Here is a chart of their proprietary additive.
I am referencing it to show the general improvement .
It shows a nice decrease in friction at idle, but goes down as speed increases. I noted a bit smoother idling with Lubro Moly as well.
I don't think these additives make the oil slipperier, but bind/bond to the surface of metals, and friction deceases between moving parts under load.
BTW, they are Korean company, not Japanese. Adeka Korea
I thought Adeka Korea is a join venture of partnership among 2 Japanese and 2 Korean. this product was developed by ADEKA (japan), My thinking is Adeka Korea is an extension of Adeka Japan, but i could be wrong!
http://www.adk.co.jp/en/chemical/pickup/lib/pickup01.html
Here is a chart of their proprietary additive.
I am referencing it to show the general improvement .
It shows a nice decrease in friction at idle, but goes down as speed increases. I noted a bit smoother idling with Lubro Moly as well.
I don't think these additives make the oil slipperier, but bind/bond to the surface of metals, and friction deceases between moving parts under load.
BTW, they are Korean company, not Japanese. Adeka Korea
I thought Adeka Korea is a join venture of partnership among 2 Japanese and 2 Korean. this product was developed by ADEKA (japan), My thinking is Adeka Korea is an extension of Adeka Japan, but i could be wrong!
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