An interesting inside perspective from a former Honda service tech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhXy1oHY_NA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhXy1oHY_NA
Honda quality in the 2000's
- Thread starter Dave424
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Good video. Thanks.
I can confirm the drop in quality opinion for sure. I knew a lot of people who bought Hondas in the 90s and had nothing but good things to say about them. So based on that I bought a new 2000 Accord, and it was just a one poorly made car. Turned me off on Honda probably for life, even though I hear their quality went up again.
I can confirm the drop in quality opinion for sure. I knew a lot of people who bought Hondas in the 90s and had nothing but good things to say about them. So based on that I bought a new 2000 Accord, and it was just a one poorly made car. Turned me off on Honda probably for life, even though I hear their quality went up again.
Liked the video. I started thinking about what he said with the labor shift in terms of recommended maintenance on my Outlander. I have a timing chain, and no valve adjustments are needed on my engine. Spark plugs are iridium and Mitsubishi says they don't need changing until 105,000 miles. So yes that's a fair amount of money the techs (dealer or independents) are missing out on.
I'll confirm the drop in Honda quality. Owned two new Accords (1985 and 1989)and both were tanks. Next Honda was a new 2000 Odyssey (bought for my wife) I bought a new 2000 Taurus for myself. I had never owned two cars that had been recalled as many times. In the final count: Honda beat ford 7 to 6 recalls. Got rid of the Odyssey at 80K. Tranny wouldn't shift right, all kinds of problems with the power doors, wore out Michelins @ 40K intervals regardless of what you did with the thing, and I could keep going.
Traded this off on a new 2006 Odyssey (She liked the first.) Had it a week before the PS pump took a dump. Paint quality is horrendous, and now at 57K the tranny is not shifting right. However in a timely development, got notice that Honda is now extending transmission warranty to 8 yrs/105K because of a "judder" in the tranny. This includes a reflash and possible reimbursement for the torque converter. It certainly isn't any secret about transmission issues in pretty much any Honda v6 automatic. Doors are working alright but tires are still wearing as well as previously (on second set.)
Both vans were maintained by the book and neither were abused (2 adults no kids.) We liked both of the vans but there certainly is no quality advantage to Honda any more. Don't know if I'll buy another Honda.
Traded this off on a new 2006 Odyssey (She liked the first.) Had it a week before the PS pump took a dump. Paint quality is horrendous, and now at 57K the tranny is not shifting right. However in a timely development, got notice that Honda is now extending transmission warranty to 8 yrs/105K because of a "judder" in the tranny. This includes a reflash and possible reimbursement for the torque converter. It certainly isn't any secret about transmission issues in pretty much any Honda v6 automatic. Doors are working alright but tires are still wearing as well as previously (on second set.)
Both vans were maintained by the book and neither were abused (2 adults no kids.) We liked both of the vans but there certainly is no quality advantage to Honda any more. Don't know if I'll buy another Honda.
Stuck me as a disorganized rant. He laments about the good days of making good money, by his own admission, on gravy work billed straight time because of a more stringent severe(he admits pushed by his dealership solely for higher profits) maintenance schedule.
But then, by what he labels the "labor shift", those easy-money, customer billed maintenance repairs went poof as Honda's competition went low maintenance/longer warranties, and they were forced to follow. He admits that in doing so design/build changes led to improvements- timing chains replace belts, Finicky valve trains were improved thus reducing needed service. That may be bad for him and his colleagues, but definitely benefits the vehicle owner in reduced vehicle costs.
It wasn't until the last minute or so of the video where he cites a lone, actual example of how his "labor shift" theory affected Honda quality- the then new 2004 Acura TL needing numerous TSB updates before being offered for sale.
He does nearly hit the mark at the end when he alludes to Honda putting extra effort in establishing it's new Acura brand(sort of like what Hyundai and Kia are doing currently), then once established sluffs off somewhat. Then the bean-counters get more involved and profit become priority. Not necessarily a bad thing, but good right up to the point it becomes bad.
Honda and pretty much every mfg'er flirts with that point between max profit and customer expectation of quality. Go too far and the brand takes a hit like Toyota in the 2000's.
But then, by what he labels the "labor shift", those easy-money, customer billed maintenance repairs went poof as Honda's competition went low maintenance/longer warranties, and they were forced to follow. He admits that in doing so design/build changes led to improvements- timing chains replace belts, Finicky valve trains were improved thus reducing needed service. That may be bad for him and his colleagues, but definitely benefits the vehicle owner in reduced vehicle costs.
It wasn't until the last minute or so of the video where he cites a lone, actual example of how his "labor shift" theory affected Honda quality- the then new 2004 Acura TL needing numerous TSB updates before being offered for sale.
He does nearly hit the mark at the end when he alludes to Honda putting extra effort in establishing it's new Acura brand(sort of like what Hyundai and Kia are doing currently), then once established sluffs off somewhat. Then the bean-counters get more involved and profit become priority. Not necessarily a bad thing, but good right up to the point it becomes bad.
Honda and pretty much every mfg'er flirts with that point between max profit and customer expectation of quality. Go too far and the brand takes a hit like Toyota in the 2000's.
I never did own Hondas from the '90s, so I wouldn't know what they were back then.
Do I think they're higher quality cars or more reliable cars today compared with others? No.
Quality and reliability aren't reasons we own two Hondas (though with that said, both have been the most reliable vehicles we've owned in a while).
Do I think they're higher quality cars or more reliable cars today compared with others? No.
Quality and reliability aren't reasons we own two Hondas (though with that said, both have been the most reliable vehicles we've owned in a while).
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Quality and reliability aren't reasons we own two Hondas
What are your reasons for owning Hondas?
Quality and reliability aren't reasons we own two Hondas
What are your reasons for owning Hondas?
Geesh, the guy talks to much on his own theories. Seems to have a lot of videos on just about anything car related but yet because he was a tech for 8 years at an Acura dealer, he's now the Honda guru? Ain't buying it. You will find trouble with any car. The 2000 Accords had tranny problems galore. Honda offered 1000's of good will transmission replacements, I was one.
All cars, including Honda, are getting WAY more complicated.
From Gov't crud,and crud people think they need.
Of course more things will break.
From Gov't crud,and crud people think they need.
Of course more things will break.
Must be the Eric! He rants in these types of videos but he does great tech videos. Most other youtubers do not even own a tripod and are very difficult to watch.
Watch the ScottyKilmer's diatribe on expensive cars or the plastic parts in BMW just for a different take on this!
- Vikas
Watch the ScottyKilmer's diatribe on expensive cars or the plastic parts in BMW just for a different take on this!
- Vikas
I still think they are better than average.
My Civic is a nice little car, solid, no rattles.
If you park a 2011 Civic beside a 2011 Corolla its night and day. The Corolla is awful inside. Civic is not.
My Civic is a nice little car, solid, no rattles.
If you park a 2011 Civic beside a 2011 Corolla its night and day. The Corolla is awful inside. Civic is not.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Quality and reliability aren't reasons we own two Hondas
What are your reasons for owning Hondas?
It's a combination of good efficiency, good fun-to-drive factor, good reliability, and generally being pleasing to drive. Neither of our cars is THE most efficient in its class, or THE most fun to drive, or even THE most reliable (however that might be measured). But they both provide a great balance of those factors. Vehicle packaging (especially with the CR-V) is also excellent, returning a lot of interior space without a lot of exterior "size".
Edit: another reason is they're very DIY-friendly. I don't need a scan tool to flush the brake fluid. I don't need a scan tool or complicated press of buttons to check the level of the transmission fluid. All fluids have convenient drain/fill plugs. No messy pans to drop. The CR-V even has a factory in-line transmission filter that is DIY serviceable. They're simple vehicles that are easy to maintain.
My previous car required a 4-hour intake manifold removal job to simply change the PCV valve. No transmission dipstick, so I couldn't check fluid, and DIY fluid replacements would be more painful than really required. I turned off to that quick.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Quality and reliability aren't reasons we own two Hondas
What are your reasons for owning Hondas?
It's a combination of good efficiency, good fun-to-drive factor, good reliability, and generally being pleasing to drive. Neither of our cars is THE most efficient in its class, or THE most fun to drive, or even THE most reliable (however that might be measured). But they both provide a great balance of those factors. Vehicle packaging (especially with the CR-V) is also excellent, returning a lot of interior space without a lot of exterior "size".
Edit: another reason is they're very DIY-friendly. I don't need a scan tool to flush the brake fluid. I don't need a scan tool or complicated press of buttons to check the level of the transmission fluid. All fluids have convenient drain/fill plugs. No messy pans to drop. The CR-V even has a factory in-line transmission filter that is DIY serviceable. They're simple vehicles that are easy to maintain.
My previous car required a 4-hour intake manifold removal job to simply change the PCV valve. No transmission dipstick, so I couldn't check fluid, and DIY fluid replacements would be more painful than really required. I turned off to that quick.
Wonderful quality in trouble free 1995 Civic EX with 210k miles by me(225k total).
My current Acura MDX 2007 seems the same in first year of used ownership. Just a weak battery caused all sorts of electrical gremlin havoc when weak but cured with a $100 battery replacement.
I could care less what the techs think.
My current Acura MDX 2007 seems the same in first year of used ownership. Just a weak battery caused all sorts of electrical gremlin havoc when weak but cured with a $100 battery replacement.
I could care less what the techs think.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Must be the Eric! He rants in these types of videos but he does great tech videos. Most other youtubers do not even own a tripod and are very difficult to watch.
Watch the ScottyKilmer's diatribe on expensive cars or the plastic parts in BMW just for a different take on this!
- Vikas
Yeah, he has some very helpful how-to videos on youtube.
Must be the Eric! He rants in these types of videos but he does great tech videos. Most other youtubers do not even own a tripod and are very difficult to watch.
Watch the ScottyKilmer's diatribe on expensive cars or the plastic parts in BMW just for a different take on this!
- Vikas
Yeah, he has some very helpful how-to videos on youtube.
Originally Posted By: rjundi
Wonderful quality in trouble free 1995 Civic EX with 210k miles by me(225k total).
My current Acura MDX 2007 seems the same in first year of used ownership. Just a weak battery caused all sorts of electrical gremlin havoc when weak but cured with a $100 battery replacement.
I could care less what the techs think.
My bro had a 1997 Civic EX. That was a tank till he didn't take my advice and had Sears Autocare replace the coolant with non-OEM coolant. It was rock solid, the trany was a joy and he rarely maintained his tranny. He had 170K and at ~180K it was in flames on 101 south. His wife was driving it and completely spooked her.!!! She drives a Rav4 now..
But in short the 90s Civic were super super reliable.
Wonderful quality in trouble free 1995 Civic EX with 210k miles by me(225k total).
My current Acura MDX 2007 seems the same in first year of used ownership. Just a weak battery caused all sorts of electrical gremlin havoc when weak but cured with a $100 battery replacement.
I could care less what the techs think.
My bro had a 1997 Civic EX. That was a tank till he didn't take my advice and had Sears Autocare replace the coolant with non-OEM coolant. It was rock solid, the trany was a joy and he rarely maintained his tranny. He had 170K and at ~180K it was in flames on 101 south. His wife was driving it and completely spooked her.!!! She drives a Rav4 now..
But in short the 90s Civic were super super reliable.
I owned a 1990 Accord (made in Japan) and a 2004 Accord (made in Ohio).
The '90 felt very well-made - the doors sounded like the proverbial vault when closing. No problems whatsoever with the car.
The '04 was also a good car, although it didn't have the solid feel of the '90 model.
The '90 felt very well-made - the doors sounded like the proverbial vault when closing. No problems whatsoever with the car.
The '04 was also a good car, although it didn't have the solid feel of the '90 model.
Obviously, my experience may not be representative of anything, but here it is.
1. 1999 Accord - 2.3 litre w. 5 speed manual. Complete POS. Multiple problems - a money pit. At 125,000, the car simply stopped running. We junked it.
2. 2003 Accord - 2.4 litre w. 5 speed manual. The best car that I have ever owned. Absolutely reliable. Fun to drive. No rattles. Other than recommended maintenance, I had to replace a front axle seal. Currently has 128,000 miles and I believe that it will see 200,000 easily.
3. 2002 CR-V - purchased used with 99,000 miles. Previous owner maintained the car very well including 3000 OCI, 30000 mile tranny fluid changes, 30000 mile coolant changes, brake fluid changes, power steering fluid changes etc. I did the recommended 100,000 mile makeover and the car currently has 115,000 miles. Another winner - very reliable - solid - no problems at all. I think that I need a new front stabilizer bar end, but that's it. Once again, I think that this car will easily make 200,000 miles.
4. 2007 Accord - 3.0 V-6 with automatic. So far, so good but it's had some problems. I had to replace the brakes after 30000 miles (although my wife drives it very aggressively) and there are some rattles. I'm a bit concerned about the shifting of the automatic. 67,000 miles with bi-annual trans and radiator fluid changes. 5000 mile OCI (I ignore the oil life thingy because Honda V-6's are hard on oil). I will keep my fingers crossed.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
1. 1999 Accord - 2.3 litre w. 5 speed manual. Complete POS. Multiple problems - a money pit. At 125,000, the car simply stopped running. We junked it.
2. 2003 Accord - 2.4 litre w. 5 speed manual. The best car that I have ever owned. Absolutely reliable. Fun to drive. No rattles. Other than recommended maintenance, I had to replace a front axle seal. Currently has 128,000 miles and I believe that it will see 200,000 easily.
3. 2002 CR-V - purchased used with 99,000 miles. Previous owner maintained the car very well including 3000 OCI, 30000 mile tranny fluid changes, 30000 mile coolant changes, brake fluid changes, power steering fluid changes etc. I did the recommended 100,000 mile makeover and the car currently has 115,000 miles. Another winner - very reliable - solid - no problems at all. I think that I need a new front stabilizer bar end, but that's it. Once again, I think that this car will easily make 200,000 miles.
4. 2007 Accord - 3.0 V-6 with automatic. So far, so good but it's had some problems. I had to replace the brakes after 30000 miles (although my wife drives it very aggressively) and there are some rattles. I'm a bit concerned about the shifting of the automatic. 67,000 miles with bi-annual trans and radiator fluid changes. 5000 mile OCI (I ignore the oil life thingy because Honda V-6's are hard on oil). I will keep my fingers crossed.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
I know pretty much anyone have their luv/hate relationships RE: certain brand names and such, and would like to come along and put in their 2c's worth.
All I would like to say are as follows:
(a ) folks who are experiencing issues/problems with certain brand name products (e.g. automobiles) would cry/whime/complain the loudest on-line, and/or try to make themselves heard as widely as possible (to get people's attention). On the contrary: not all satisfied consumers would come along and praise about good products.
(b ) most of these yoootoob postings are subjective opinions (yes, "opinion is like an aay-whole; everybody has one and it stinks"), and Eric the car guy is not alone, IMHO.
(c ) IMHO no one brand (of automobiles) better than another in the arena of cost-cutting (competitiveness) while retaining quality: meaning that they all come along with certain quality-related issues. Some comes with more than others, that's for certain.
(d )automobiles have come a long way in terms of added weight(penality), stricter emissions control and added complexity in terms of controls (all the ABS, EBD, traction control, OBD-II computers, etc.) that one cannot simply come along and casually compare that to your grand-daddy's automobile of yore (carb'ed, no PCV (just a tube to vent crankcase pressure and pollutants, yeah! I knew that), no cat, no O2, no EVAP, no nothing. Those where the days where simplicity came along as part of the expectations, which no longer applies in this day and age).
(e ) all automobile manufacturers suffered from one form or another: some kind of quality issues that may come back to bite them where it hurts a few years down the road: some may be more serious than the others...but nevertheless: it's all directly/indrectly attributed to cost-cutting measures and quality controls from their parts supplier. In other words: there's no one car manufacturers rein superior in that regards than others anymore, citing that almost all car manufacturers sourced over 80% of the components from various outsider OEM suppliers, which also have their own quality concerns due to aggressive cost-cutting measures (very lean profit margin + relative lack of means rooms for improvements meaning quality will suffer).
I'm not sympathising or favouring any particular brands here (I have owned a few brands in the past/current, and they all have their own issues.
My 2c's worth.
Q.
All I would like to say are as follows:
(a ) folks who are experiencing issues/problems with certain brand name products (e.g. automobiles) would cry/whime/complain the loudest on-line, and/or try to make themselves heard as widely as possible (to get people's attention). On the contrary: not all satisfied consumers would come along and praise about good products.
(b ) most of these yoootoob postings are subjective opinions (yes, "opinion is like an aay-whole; everybody has one and it stinks"), and Eric the car guy is not alone, IMHO.
(c ) IMHO no one brand (of automobiles) better than another in the arena of cost-cutting (competitiveness) while retaining quality: meaning that they all come along with certain quality-related issues. Some comes with more than others, that's for certain.
(d )automobiles have come a long way in terms of added weight(penality), stricter emissions control and added complexity in terms of controls (all the ABS, EBD, traction control, OBD-II computers, etc.) that one cannot simply come along and casually compare that to your grand-daddy's automobile of yore (carb'ed, no PCV (just a tube to vent crankcase pressure and pollutants, yeah! I knew that), no cat, no O2, no EVAP, no nothing. Those where the days where simplicity came along as part of the expectations, which no longer applies in this day and age).
(e ) all automobile manufacturers suffered from one form or another: some kind of quality issues that may come back to bite them where it hurts a few years down the road: some may be more serious than the others...but nevertheless: it's all directly/indrectly attributed to cost-cutting measures and quality controls from their parts supplier. In other words: there's no one car manufacturers rein superior in that regards than others anymore, citing that almost all car manufacturers sourced over 80% of the components from various outsider OEM suppliers, which also have their own quality concerns due to aggressive cost-cutting measures (very lean profit margin + relative lack of means rooms for improvements meaning quality will suffer).
I'm not sympathising or favouring any particular brands here (I have owned a few brands in the past/current, and they all have their own issues.
My 2c's worth.
Q.
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