Gun Butter... any good?

[AMC]

Pablo, all the silicone sprays I have tested do cause rust. I have tested them and seen the results first hand, there is no doubt about it. Do a quick corrosion test yourself to see. Nail some common nails into a board outside, buff the nails with steel wool and degrease them with lacquer thinner. Apply whatever chemicals you want to test to the nails with a q-tip and watch for next few days, if it isnt going to rain, spray the nails with water a few times a day. The silicone treated nail will probably have rust on it in less than a day, while your control nail stays clean. Besides, plastic and parts that don't really need lubrication should just stay clean and dry.

I might have to check the aviation version of corrosion x out but I am guessing that version of corrosion x could gum up or get tacky over time as most "heavy duty" rust inhibitors do. If the corrosion x for guns is the regular ol' original version, that should be good enough.

Speaking of that had you ever tried corrosion x on your guns, how did compare to weaponshield?

Almost any quality gun oil will "season" your gun and make cleaning up easier if it has been used consistently several times. Almost all weapon care companies claim their product does this and they are not lying.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: AMC
Pablo, all the silicone sprays I have tested do cause rust. I have tested them and seen the results first hand, there is no doubt about it. Do a quick corrosion test yourself to see. Nail some common nails into a board outside, buff the nails with steel wool and degrease them with lacquer thinner. Apply whatever chemicals you want to test to the nails with a q-tip and watch for next few days, if it isnt going to rain, spray the nails with water a few times a day. The silicone treated nail will probably have rust on it in less than a day, while your control nail stays clean. Besides, plastic and parts that don't really need lubrication should just stay clean and dry.


I'm going to do a test with steel washers. Problem is not many gun steel alloys are mild steel like cheap washers.

Been doing silicone on a couple different areas and no rust, no build up, guns clean up quickly. No problems on my end. Rust? I've taken my guns to the range (outdoors when it was pouring down buckets) and my guns have zero rust.

 

[AMC]

Cool man, let us know what you find!

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
I might have to check the aviation version of corrosion x out but I am guessing that version of corrosion x could gum up or get tacky over time as most "heavy duty" rust inhibitors do. If the corrosion x for guns is the regular ol' original version, that should be good enough.

Speaking of that had you ever tried corrosion x on your guns, how did compare to weaponshield?


I've had CX Aviation on a safe queen (old Luger given to me) for several years and it looks the same as the day I put it on. CX is formulated by a former head of Exxon Mobil research so it is a quality product.

It contains solvents which clean well at first, but after that, the cleaning power isn't much so I don't use it on shooters. Has worked great on locks and storage items though... I let a maintenance man at my old job use some for a while and he liked it so much he bought the can from me!

As far as WS, stuff just doesn't stick to it. I shoot with a fairly heavy coat and the junk just wipes right off. No need for other products. Nice to have a true CLP that will truly do it all. This easy cleaning is the main reason I use WS. It also stays put well in storage and use.

 

[AMC]

Originally Posted By: Tempest

I've had CX Aviation on a safe queen (old Luger given to me) for several years and it looks the same as the day I put it on. CX is formulated by a former head of Exxon Mobil research so it is a quality product.

It contains solvents which clean well at first, but after that, the cleaning power isn't much so I don't use it on shooters. Has worked great on locks and storage items though... I let a maintenance man at my old job use some for a while and he liked it so much he bought the can from me!

As far as WS, stuff just doesn't stick to it. I shoot with a fairly heavy coat and the junk just wipes right off. No need for other products. Nice to have a true CLP that will truly do it all. This easy cleaning is the main reason I use WS. It also stays put well in storage and use.


Nice, thank you for the info! I still need to put corrosion x through its paces. I just got my weaponshield sample not too long ago so the two products will be compared very soon.

Comparing corrosion X to weaponshield on paper, Corrosion X probably suits me a little better. I live 500 feet from the ocean so rust protection is huge. The fact that corrosion x is one of the best rust preventatives out there gives it a big advantage to me. I also prefer the lower price, the fact that corrosion x is available in an aerosol, not just a liquid like WS. Although both products claim to be non toxic, I would probably give corrosion x a slight edge over WS because WS contains chlorinated paraffin.

All this being said, I do really like the high flashpoint and thicker consistency of weaponshield so who knows, the jury is still out.

I should also tell you guys my testing of two other products is complete. Super lube with syncolon and Frog Lube. Super lube is the best lubricant I have ever tested, Bar none. Unfortunately, it does not clean nor penetrate at all and it is a very marginal rust stopper. Certainly not worth the high price tag. Frog lube is good stuff. A great cleaner, good lube and an ok rust stopper. The problem is, it is very expensive and if you ask me, nothing more than an updated ballistol with triple the price tag and a new smell. Breakfree CLP and other cheaper options easily beat this stuff in my (and others) corrosion testing. Frog lube = Ballistol of 2011 with a ridiculous price tag, Epic Fail!

Thanks for all the info guys, there will be more coming from me soon.

 

[bradh]

Been skimming some of the chlorinated paraffin literature, lot of animal data, environmental, some human stuff, more on the short chain than longer variants.

Looks like the feds are getting tougher: http://www.epa.gov/oppt/existingchemicals/pubs/actionplans/sccps.html

Note that they are going to be evaluating the medium/long chain paraffins. No idea how that will turn out.

Anywho... that brings up a question I have.. aren't there other AW/EP additives that could work well in a CLP (for typical firearm conditions, temperatures, environments, etc), that don't come with a potential toxic liability?

Brad

 

[Mystic]

It troubles me too that some of the most effective gun lubes may be dangerous to a person's health. I am pretty nervous about using WeaponShield. No doubt it is effective but I would rather use just Breakfree, even if it is declining in quality, to something that might endanger my health. After all, I can buy a new S&W M&P semi-auto for about $400.00. Compared to maybe getting cancer, $400.00 is nothing. It will be interesting finding out what they learn about the health hazards of these medium chain and long chain chlorinated paraffin lubricates.

I might even give Lucas gun oil a try. It was developed to lubricate machine guns. I could clean the gun with Hoppes Elite gun cleaner and lube it with Lucas gun oil. After all, the gun is going to wear some anyway. You can't totally stop all wear to the gun with any lubricate that I am aware of. So just reduce wear as much as possible and get a new gun when the wear becomes great enough or have the gun rebuilt. Maybe we worry too much about gun oil. That Lucas gun oil is about $5.00 a bottle. They claim you can even clean the bore of the barrel with it. And it is likely pretty safe.

 

[bradh]

Mystic... curious, how is Breakfree declining in quality.

I do see several formulations (I have three different MSDS in front of me)... but I guess I kinda hoped that meant they were adapting/improving it over time?

About Weaponshield.. I am 100% certain the fellow who made it is way smarter than I am. I'm just a bit over paranoid, largely due to my profession.

Brad

 

[AMC]

Brad, read the second page of this topic. I explained to Mystic that the ownership of breakfree has changed several times and breakfree clp has been reformulated several times, not really for the better. It now has less P.A.O. base, more solvents, zero teflon, a lower flashpoint, thinner viscosity and a different smell. It is no longer the approved military clp and the company that owns it now (safariland) could care less about getting it back on the list. Breakfree is still a decent rust preventative but that is it's only strong point anymore.

George Fennel is a very smart guy but he is also trying to sell his product so unfortunately, there has to be some bias to his words.

 

[bradh]

Sorry AMC... it was early and I didn't have my coffee yet. Thank you!

 

[Mystic]

Well, if Breakfree is going down in quality I will have to find something else. And I have no doubt that AMC is probably right about Breakfree declining in quality. I used it for a long time (except for one gun that did not seem to like it much). Oh well, times change. And we have to change with the times.

I figure there is no use wasting time with a product that is on its way downhill. But I do want to use a product that is reasonably safe. So maybe I will find some CorrosionX and see how it works.

It seems there must be a gun oil somewhere that will get the job done. They can't all be bad, can they? Even if 90% of them are bad there have to be a few that are good.

There are still some products worth trying like CorrosionX that has already been tested somewhat by AMC here, Ballistol, Birchwood Casey gun oil, and perhaps various gun oils such as the Glock gun oil that is available. There is also a gun oil that has PTFE made by the Tufoil people. I stopped using their Tufoil for engines a long time ago but maybe their gun oil is good. Who knows?

If somebody finds that truly good gun oil hopefully they will let everybody here know about it. Somewhere in some out of the way place there must be a decent gun oil.

 

[AMC]

One thing to keep in mind here, 90% of gun oils out there will at least work OK and are "decent". Similar to motor oil, there are only really a handful of gun oils out there that truly are "bad". The important thing here is that you DO clean and lubricate your firearms with something appropriate. Just like many people here will say about motor oil, so long as you are using the correct weight/grade of oil and changing the oil on time, It doesn't really matter which brand/type of motor oil you use. The same holds true for firearms.
Now, all this being said, the reason I (and so many others) test so many different oils all the time is because I am always looking for the best products at the best price, for my needs. I will use whatever I think is best until I think I find something better.
Until then, the search continues!

 

[Mystic]

I always clean my guns after I shoot. The old timer's said, 'Never leave a dirty gun to lay overnight.' I still think that is good advice.

I went shooting today. I cleaned my gun with Hoppes Elite which I still feel is a good cleaner. And I decided to use Breakfree because that is probably the best that I have right now. I noticed on my bottles of Breakfree (the spray and the liquid bottle) that both were supposed to have PTFE. So unless Safariland is lying, the bottles of Breakfree that I have still contain PTFE. Maybe they are older bottles of Breakfree. I have had them for a while.

I had to get some patches at Wal-Mart. I checked the new bottles of Breakfree (which they did have to my surprise) and they look considerably different. So maybe I am just lucky to have some of the older Breakfree. The Breakfree still seems to work well and I apparently have older Breakfree with PTFE so I will probably run for a while with Hoppes Elite and Breakfree. But then I will have to get some CorrosionX if AMC's testing goes well.

At least I am probably using better stuff than many people I know who use RemOil. I could never get into using RemOil myself. I have tried all kinds of gun oils but I mostly used Hoppes No. 9 gun oil before I started to use Breakfree.

 

[AMC]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I noticed on my bottles of Breakfree (the spray and the liquid bottle) that both were supposed to have PTFE. So unless Safariland is lying, the bottles of Breakfree that I have still contain PTFE. Maybe they are older bottles of Breakfree. I have had them for a while.


Safariland is lying! Get their number and call them (as I did) and ask them yourself. They will tell you themselves that breakfree CLP has not contained teflon for quite some time. The reasoning I got as to why the can still says it has ptfe, even though the formula doesn't have it, is that the bulk components of breakfree clp still have residual ptfe in them, just not necessarily a measurable amount....lol

You can test this yourself by putting the breakfree clp you have in a clear container, and letting it set for several days. If the bottom of the container looks cloudy white, that is the teflon sinking to the bottom. Shake up the container and notice that the whitish layer on the bottom will be gone and the entire mixture will have a cloudy appearance to it. I have seen this happening first hand in 2005 in my unit's arms room, I do not see this anymore with the current version of breakfree clp.

 

[AVB]

I am wondering about the silicone causing rust. It may be the brand used lots of silicone sprays contain acetone and other chemicals. Some brands like CRC Heavy Duty Silicone will damage plastics even though they are advertised as a plastic lube. I copied this from CRC's website.

Applications

Wood, plastic, metal and rubber surfaces. Use in moist and harsh environments. Not for use as an appearance cleaner or on paint.

Then farther down on the product specifications list it has this.

Plastic Safe No

I don't know what this has to do with rust, but I have personally damaged a side marker light on a trailer by lubing it with the CRC silicone to get it to go in the gromet. It made the light hazy.

Back to the rust issue. Why would gun socks be treated with silicone if it causes rust? I think it may have been something else in the silicone that caused the washer to rust so bad, I don't know if it was the acetone or some other ingredient or the silicone itself. I think the Amsoil silicone that Pablo would be using is plasic safe and also may not cause the rusting issue. I actually have a can maybe I should do a test myself. The green can of CRC Water Based Silicone is plastic safe also. I thought all silicone was water based, something that has concerned me about rust.

Products I have and use- CLR, Miltec1, Slip 2000 Gun Lube & EWL, Kano Kroil, Barnes CR10, Rem oil

 

[Pablo]

Amsoil Silicone Spray is plastic safe and is not water based. I didn't have time to seek out steel washers so I started a mini test on some alloy steel keyed 5/8" shaft. A little rust started to show up on the control and the WD-40 shaft yesterday. I did two with Amsoil Silicone Spray. Those two look fine, but it's only been a couple days.

I've tried some/most of the cleaners mentioned here. I shoot almost every week, sometimes 4 or 5 of my guns, so as you guys know - lots of cleaner. I liked MPro-7 but it's so darn expensive! Don't laugh but I've gone back to Hoppe's 9 cleaner. I buy 4 qts when I see a sale. It's not instant but with a soak and scrub with a brush it cleans. I use Kroil as well for a penetrant/cleaner and blast and wipe with Amsoil MP.

 

[Mystic]

I sort of think it is still a good idea to clean at least the bore of the barrel with a solvent. Old Hoppes No. 9 can probably still get the job done, but I would clean outside with it. I would not want to stink up my house. Hoppes Elite does seem to me to be a good cleaner. If a person could get the paste stuff-it lasts longer. The Hoppes Elite spray does not last too long but it would last longer just using it for the bore alone.

If Safariland is lying to me I don't like being lied to. Lying on a container label is still lying, no matter how somebody tries to say it is not lying. That will make me switch to CorrosionX sooner and not later.

I may possibly give Tufoil gunkote a trial also. I don't use Tufoil engine oil supplement anymore. I have not used it for a long time.

I would like to thank AMC for really helping me to be able to make what I think are good, logical decisions about what gun oils to use. I have long felt that there are reasonable gun cleaners around. Old Hoppes No. 9 will still work and Hoppes Elite I think is effective. But it seems like there is a shortage of truly decent gun oil. Well, now I maybe have some better choices. There is WeaponShield (I don't like the chlorinated paraffins however), Birchwood Casey, CorrosionX, Ballistol, maybe Protec products, and perhaps Tufoil gun oil. Based on what I have been able to find out here (thank you Bitgo) I think I will go to CorrosionX. It appears to be safer and good enough to get the job done.

Any of these gun oils would probably be better than a Breakfree product apparently on the way downhill, or RemOil, or Hoppes Elite (which apparently has been reformulated however).

If I do start using CorrosionX I will probably still use either Hoppes No. 9 or Hoppes Elite to clean the bore of the barrel.

 

[Damien]

lock time: "The time, measured in milliseconds, from when the trigger is pulled until the firing pin strikes the primer."
Slightest, huh?!?!

So, where am I trying to sell this stuff??
Did you see any business of mine mentioned in the post???

And as I stated,,, the U.S. Navy SEALs use it. Or are they not part of our Military?

Since your a Department man why don't you try getting in touch with the Pennsylvania State Police and inquire with some of them about how many of them personally use it?

Here is a quote from my friend that was embedded with 10th Mtn Brigade in Afghanistan:
"GB ran a mark19 last night thru 22 rounds in the snow, Let your buddy know the 23 year old gunner(who breaks everything in sight!) ran the gun and said it never felt smoother. Those things are problematic out here with the dust, but the GB worked better than LSA on it. He now is a believer,,,YES Damien, you were right about this stuff, MY A-2 loves it and the m-4s I painted with it are still running great from 3 weeks ago(these guys dont clean after every action, they are an artillery unit doing grunt work) They all ask me for the GB now..."

Yeah,,, don't listen to me. I must be trying to sell it!!!

 

[AMC]

Originally Posted By: Damien
lock time: "The time, measured in milliseconds, from when the trigger is pulled until the firing pin strikes the primer."
Slightest, huh?!?!

So, where am I trying to sell this stuff??
Did you see any business of mine mentioned in the post???

They all ask me for the GB now..."

Yeah,,, don't listen to me. I must be trying to sell it!!!

I never asked what lock time is, I asked you to explain how applying a lube like gun butter could decrease lock time and you didn't explain that. You explained what lock time is, not how gun butter supposedly reduces it, which would be impossible.

"They all ask me for gun butter now" OK. So maybe you aren't selling it but you JUST admitted you are supplying it some how.

I've seen your posts on the gun butter web site and almost everywhere else gun butter is sold under the reviews. If gun butter isn't paying you, they should be for all the hard work you do for them. I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say the only reason you joined BITOG is so you can troll any topic mentioning gun butter.

Show me a Four ball wear scar test with gun butter, how bout a falex bearing test, maybe a corrosion panel test.... I'm guessing they don't exist. Anecdotal stories only count for so much, sorry bro. A few people here already said they tried GB and it wasn't anything special. What is your response to them? Let me guess, they applied it wrong? lol

Give it a rest.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: AMC
Cool man, let us know what you find!


So far no rust on the silicone treated shafts. Frankly the WD-40 shaft looks worse than the control.