Is Toyota 0W-20 SN made in heaven?

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Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: ledslinger
Toyota 0W20 isn't really manufactured, but collected as dew from the breasts of virgin fairies. It requires scant purification and additives save for removing the impurities accidentally introduced by elves who collect the dew drops.


OMG, I'm in stitches over here, BAH HAHAHAHHHAHA

And who said motor oil wasn't sexy? "dew from the breasts of virgin fairies". I for one am getting excited. I think I'll run to the basement and open up a fresh bottle of TGMO right now!
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Remember, HTHSV trumps KV100.
The Toyota 0W-20 has a higher KV100 undoubtedly due to it's higher VII content. Operational viscosity correlates with HTHSV and VI. Assuming both oils have the same HTHSV of 2.6cP, the Toyota oil will be lighter at all temp's below 150C. How much lighter will it be at normal operating temp's in the 80C-100C range? I'd say somewhere around 10%.


I am not challenging your numbers, but wondering how you got them. What is the formula you are using to determine this? It caught me by surprise to read that an oil with a higher KV100 can be "thinner" at that 100C temperature than an oil with a lower KV100, and the same HTHSV. I read your remarks to say that the VII content is influencing it, but I don't understand the role that VIIs are playing in this equation.

Please help!
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Have there been any UOA's posted on BITOG yet with this oil? In a Toyota engine? With so many using it, I was hoping to see some.

We don't ever have to change our oil again so no more UOAs.


UOA's have been disregarded from this site as evidence of PCMO/HDEO effectiveness, and replaced by which oil has higher VI's but often produces higher wear #'s. Read about why I disagree that M-1 0W-40 is "superior" to other "Euro" spec oils. The only answer I have received is M-1 0W40 is "superior" to 5W40's from other blenders because of higher VI's. TBN retention and wear numbers are dismissed in favor of VI content.


Meh
wink.gif
My logic is that M1 0w40 is the most tested and certified oil of all the 40-weights on the market. That in my mind, makes it the best
grin.gif



But Mobil One 0W40 is not most certified 40 weight on the market. It has less than PU 5W40 and only has one more than Castrol 5W40 the Nissan GT-R spec. As far as most tested maybe. But this is for a another discussion.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Remember, HTHSV trumps KV100.
The Toyota 0W-20 has a higher KV100 undoubtedly due to it's higher VII content. Operational viscosity correlates with HTHSV and VI. Assuming both oils have the same HTHSV of 2.6cP, the Toyota oil will be lighter at all temp's below 150C. How much lighter will it be at normal operating temp's in the 80C-100C range? I'd say somewhere around 10%.


I am not challenging your numbers, but wondering how you got them. What is the formula you are using to determine this? It caught me by surprise to read that an oil with a higher KV100 can be "thinner" at that 100C temperature than an oil with a lower KV100, and the same HTHSV. I read your remarks to say that the VII content is influencing it, but I don't understand the role that VIIs are playing in this equation.
Please help!

I'm pleased to help.
The following thread explains why the KV100 spec' is best thought of as an approximation only of the actual operational viscosity in an operating IC engine:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2276634&page=1
 
The transmission shifts better because the engine is not experiencing slow down during shifting. There is always a simple explanation.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: ledslinger
Toyota 0W20 isn't really manufactured, but collected as dew from the breasts of virgin fairies. It requires scant purification and additives save for removing the impurities accidentally introduced by elves who collect the dew drops.


OMG, I'm in stitches over here, BAH HAHAHAHHHAHA

And who said motor oil wasn't sexy? "dew from the breasts of virgin fairies". I for one am getting excited. I think I'll run to the basement and open up a fresh bottle of TGMO right now!


So if we're looking for you, you'll be in your bunk.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The Toyota 0W-20 has a higher KV100 undoubtedly due to it's higher VII content.

Ah, actually I don't agree with that at all.

You can't simply dump a ton of viscosity-index improvers (VIIs) into an oil in order to obtain an ultra-high viscosity index (VI). There is a limit to the amount of VIIs you can add to the oil, and the oil blenders know that limit very well.

If you add too much VIIs, since they shear temporarily at high shear (high shear is fast and close moving parts; VIIs make the oil a non-Newtonian fluid, which has a lower viscosity at high shear than at low shear), they would result in an HTHS (high-temperature, high-shear) viscosity that is too low, which is not allowed by the SAE specification that limits it to a minimum of 2.6 cP for xW-20.

Also, VIIs are polymers (plastics) and too much of them would ruin an engine with sludge.

Sustina claims that the high VI of their oil is due to the W BASE of Nippon Oil they use, which is the new breed of ultra-high-VI Group III+ base oil. YUBASE of Korea, the largest manufacturer of Group III in the world, also makes the new breed of ultra-high-VI Group III+ base oil.

So, in most likeliness, the high VI of the Toyota 0W-20 is due to the special base oil they use. Is it Group III+, IV, V, or a mixture of them? I don't know and no one knows, except ExxonMobil. The best guess is that it's a mixture of YUBASE or Nippon Group III+ along with ExxonMobil's excellent Group IV and V truly synthetic base oils.

It still has a lot of VIIs.
Using the Sustina example, the VI of the GP III+ base oil is 145 but the finished oil has a VI of 229.
Optimistcally I'd guess that the Toyota 0W-20 base oil has a VI no higher than 130. So whether you consider the amount of VIIs necessary to bump the finished oil up to 216 as a lot or not, it's certainly a lot more than what is contained in a dino 5W-20.

It's much more complicated. You can't tell how much VIIs are in an oil just by looking at the VI. It's a complicated science, which has evolved a lot.

Lubrizol has a VII blending-calculator page here. I used the ExxonMobil SpectraSyn 4 PAO basestock (KV40 19, KV100 4.3, VI 126) and SpectraSyn 6 PAO basestock (KV40 31, KV100 5.8, VI 138) and chose ISO-32 (roughly SAE xW-20). It popped out VII concentrations between 5.0 - 9.2% (depending on the VII type) to generate a ultra high VI of 216, which are pretty low concentrations for VIIs.

We don't know what the base oils used in Toyota 0W-20 are. They could be any combination of Group III, III+, IV, and V.

Amount of VIIs also affect the HTHS viscosity a lot (due to temporary shear of VIIs at high shear rates). Therefore, there are even more factors in choosing the right concentration of VIIs.

More references:

ExxonMobil Group IV/V base oils blending guide
YUBASE Group III base oils
 
Originally Posted By: chiks
The transmission shifts better because the engine is not experiencing slow down during shifting. There is always a simple explanation.

Absolutely! Engine and transmission are part of the same drivetrain and if the engine works better, transmission will work better as well and vice versa.

In fact, my OEM Toyota repair manual says in the transmission section that "Transmission problems can be due to either the engine or transmission."
 
Gokhan, some good info there.
The quality of the VIIs a formulator may use in addition to the concentration is subject to speculation. The bottom line is whether the finished oil is reasonably shear stability or not.
The Toyota 0W-20 has proven to have reasonable shear stability.

Because this oil is relatively inexpensive I expect the base oil formulation to be GP III based. The original Nippon Oil version of the oil sold here was not even labelled as synthetic on the misguided understanding that GP III oils sold in Canada cannot be labelled as synthetic like in Europe.
Another example is the Idemitsu GF-4 0W-20 which has a 200 VI and according to Jeff Jetter of American Honda it is 100% GP III based.
 
For the short while I had this oil in my Prius it also got its best MPG - approx. 51.5 - 53.0 across five tanks of fuel. I have not been able to replicate this MPG with Edge or Quaker State Ultimate Durability.

I might try Mobil's 0w-30 when I run out of stashed oil, but I doubt the difference will amount to anything.
 
Originally Posted By: dave1251


But Mobil One 0W40 is not most certified 40 weight on the market. It has less than PU 5W40 and only has one more than Castrol 5W40 the Nissan GT-R spec. As far as most tested maybe. But this is for a another discussion.


No need. Quatro Pete and I went over this before. It is the most certified, but some of Mobil's verbiage is off. Please search for it of you want to discuss, and we can resurrect the discussion in that thread if you so please
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Norm Olt
I just HAVE to ask: Is there a "GENUINE" Toyota shop rag with which to wipe the drain plug?


Certainly! Sewn from the only the finest hairs plucked from the heads of slumbering angels.
 
Originally Posted By: chiks
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I'm glad the engine oil makes your transmission shift better because it is only a foot away from it.


I have experienced similar with lubegard mixed with engine oil. Probably the fimes get to it
laugh.gif

Good fuel quality allows a car to shift better, and on a manual trans - watery oil will allow ther throw out to plunge the crank forward with the pressure plate and affect clutch operation (fully de-clutched position) that ultimately affects shift smoothness - given the typ de-clutched .03" air gap.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.


While PYB 5w20 isn't a star (150VI, 14.7% NOACK....etc) its vis of 8.4 at 100C is actually lower than the Toyota 0w20 at 8.54. So at operating temps, the PYB was actually thinner. Which would then mean that the only difference would have to be the Moly. You are honestly going to tell me that you gained 2MPG running a slightly heavier oil just because it has more Moly in it?

Remember, HTHSV trumps KV100.
The Toyota 0W-20 has a higher KV100 undoubtedly due to it's higher VII content. Operational viscosity correlates with HTHSV and VI. Assuming both oils have the same HTHSV of 2.6cP, the Toyota oil will be lighter at all temp's below 150C. How much lighter will it be at normal operating temp's in the 80C-100C range? I'd say somewhere around 10%.


And do you feel that 10% difference (which would be less than 1cSt if we use the KV100 numbers) can seriously yield a 2MPG fuel economy difference at operating temperature? I don't.

Isn't it 2% that Mobil claims for it's AFE oils over their 5W-20 and 5W-30 counterparts? And with their 0W-30 the VI is actually lower although it has a slightly lower HTHSV.

Also high doses of Moly in the 600-700 ppm is also supposed to increase fuel economy alone by almost 2%. That's what the original moly supplier for the Toyota oil (Adeka-Sakura Lube) claimed.

I also accept the fact that the CoF of GP III oils is lower than that of GP II oils, GP III+ lower than GP III, GP IV lower than GP III+ and some GP V oils lower than GP IV which results in better fuel economy, all other factors being equal.

All told, I don't have a problem accepting a 2% fuel economy gain claim at normal operating temp's. Do I believe the average driver can accurately measure that small gain for themselves? I don't think so since there are so many variables that affect mileage that can't be eliminated.

Personally fuel economy is not the reason I use synthetic oil, oils with robust AW additive levels and oils with high VIs.
The reason is because engines run better with more power and responsiveness. The better fuel economy is a nice added bonus.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Personally fuel economy is not the reason I use synthetic oil, oils with robust AW additive levels and oils with high VIs.

The reason is because engines run better with more power and responsiveness. The better fuel economy is a nice added bonus.

Exactly. I feel a big difference in engine responsiveness and smoothness over PYB 5W-20. I can easily feel the reduced friction thanks to the synthetic. Plus, the added fuel economy over the life of the oil, especially with used oil, more than offsets the added cost of synthetic.

Yes, the transmission shifts more smoothly because the engine is more responsive. These are the exact words from my OEM Toyota repair manual: "Troubles occurring with the automatic transmission can be caused by either the engine or the transmission itself. These two areas should be distinctly isolated before proceeding with troubleshooting." This also translates as if you have a better running engine, you have a smoother-shifting transmission.

The long story short, I am never going back to dino (even though they say never say never
smile.gif
).
I don't know for sure if I would have seen a difference over M1 0W-20, which I have never tried in this car but in a newer car, or some other high-quality 0W-20, but the difference from the dino 5W-20 is simply huge. I think the only times dino makes sense is if your car is using a lot of oil and you have to keep adding (cheap) oil during the OCI. In my case, there is no oil consumption, and I have no reason to use dino, as it would lead to higher cost due to less fuel economy over the life of the oil, not to mention shorter OCIs and other increased maintenance costs.
 
My new Toyota Prius does not require its first dealer supplied oc until 10k. I plan to do it's first oc at 3.5k myself though. I already bought the M1 0W20 AFE in anticipation of this change.

What I want to know is, do I need to take the M1 back and buy the Toyota 0W-20?!?! The dealer charges $8/qt for it. I've called around and the best price I found is $7.50/qt.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

The long story short, I am never going back to dino (even though they say never say never
smile.gif
).
I don't know for sure if I would have seen a difference over M1 0W-20, which I have never tried in this car but in a newer car, or some other high-quality 0W-20, but the difference from the dino 5W-20 is simply huge. ...
But they are BOTH dino - one goes another round through the hydrofinisher. I would say your may be feeling the 0w and its 10%+ Vii shear behind the Piston and in the Rod bigs. The oil feels initially slickery-er as the polymer breaks and you have just the near-weightless base oil. Youll feel this on a good 5w-30 vs the 10w-30. More esters in the low mutigrades as pour point depressant.
I notice a healthy moly dose feels good, too. I could operate my Yaris 1NZfe engine down at 1.5-2K rpm with the old SM Formula Shell with the big moly package vs anything else fauxsyn or mineral with which the engine would not light throttle cruise down that low. The Shell stuck rings like mad though.
 
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