Is Toyota 0W-20 SN made in heaven?

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Have there been any UOA's posted on BITOG yet with this oil? In a Toyota engine? With so many using it, I was hoping to see some.

We don't ever have to change our oil again so no more UOAs.


UOA's have been disregarded from this site as evidence of PCMO/HDEO effectiveness, and replaced by which oil has higher VI's but often produces higher wear #'s. Read about why I disagree that M-1 0W-40 is "superior" to other "Euro" spec oils. The only answer I have received is M-1 0W40 is "superior" to 5W40's from other blenders because of higher VI's. TBN retention and wear numbers are dismissed in favor of VI content.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

High viscosity index means the oil is thinner before the engine warms up, which results in less hydrodynamic friction before the oil warms up.


The Viscosity Index is a measurement of the rate of change in viscosity as the temperature changes. Higher VI means less change in fluid viscosity as temperature changes so the viscosity measurement of an oil at 40 C and 100 C would be closer than an oil with a lower VI. So if you are trying to say there is less difference in between the performance of a high VI oil at start up (colder temperatures) than after warm up (hotter temperatures) then I would agree with you. But to say that a high VI oil is thinner before the engine warms up is simply incorrect and misleading.

Comparing oils solely based on VI IIRC can be tricky because it can also be impacted the degree in which aromatics are removed in the distillation process and should only be used as a comparison tool when the base stocks are derived from the same distillate feed stock. (so to compare the VI of base stocks Gr II vs III vs IV as you have done in such a generic way isn't a fair way to look at it). This also doesn't factor in the effects of VI improvers and other aspects of the finished oils.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Gokhan I appreciate your refreshing views and this is discussion is a lot more constructive than the "thick thin" debates, but there is a couple of counterpoints I would like to add. Yes it is true higher VI and lower SAE grade of oils reduces viscous losses but increases frictional losses. To counter the fictional losses often a anti-wear "boundary" is formed by the formulation of the friction modifier additives. Group III/IV base oils themselves are not a good lubricant, if I am relaying on just base oil for lubrication I prefer a group I oil. The advantages of "synthetic" base stock besides the higher VI's, is the ability to resist oxidation and "better" additive retention. Thus to help prevent frictional loses a group III/IV is reliant on a boundary lubricity additives and the effectiveness of the boundary is dependent on the formulation of that layer with all other factors.


and +1 to this too!

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.


While PYB 5w20 isn't a star (150VI, 14.7% NOACK....etc) its vis of 8.4 at 100C is actually lower than the Toyota 0w20 at 8.54. So at operating temps, the PYB was actually thinner. Which would then mean that the only difference would have to be the Moly. You are honestly going to tell me that you gained 2MPG running a slightly heavier oil just because it has more Moly in it?

Remember, HTHSV trumps KV100.
The Toyota 0W-20 has a higher KV100 undoubtedly due to it's higher VII content. Operational viscosity correlates with HTHSV and VI. Assuming both oils have the same HTHSV of 2.6cP, the Toyota oil will be lighter at all temp's below 150C. How much lighter will it be at normal operating temp's in the 80C-100C range? I'd say somewhere around 10%.

 

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
[
In this second Dark Age where subjectivism is poo-poo'd

The problem with subjectivism is that it results in anything you want it to be which leads to false and misleading information. For example, the OP's original "guess" on the base stock for this oil was a little different when he posted the UOA after which he installed the TGMO:

"The new fill is Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0W-20 SN/GF-5 (made in USA by ExxonMobil). I got if for $5.50 a quart at my local dealer, after some good negotiation. It seems to be a pure Group IV / Group V oil (no Group III) from its nauseating odor. In contrast Mobil 1 0W-20 has a much milder odor of the same kind, probably indicating less Group IV or V and more Group III in it."

It either is or isn't. The poster is experienced enough to know that no one on BITOG knows, so why publish this guess?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Have there been any UOA's posted on BITOG yet with this oil? In a Toyota engine? With so many using it, I was hoping to see some.

There are lots of them. Here's one:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2623790#Post2623790

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.


While PYB 5w20 isn't a star (150VI, 14.7% NOACK....etc) its vis of 8.4 at 100C is actually lower than the Toyota 0w20 at 8.54. So at operating temps, the PYB was actually thinner. Which would then mean that the only difference would have to be the Moly. You are honestly going to tell me that you gained 2MPG running a slightly heavier oil just because it has more Moly in it?

Remember, HTHSV trumps KV100.
The Toyota 0W-20 has a higher KV100 undoubtedly due to it's higher VII content. Operational viscosity correlates with HTHSV and VI. Assuming both oils have the same HTHSV of 2.6cP, the Toyota oil will be lighter at all temp's below 150C. How much lighter will it be at normal operating temp's in the 80C-100C range? I'd say somewhere around 10%.


And do you feel that 10% difference (which would be less than 1cSt if we use the KV100 numbers) can seriously yield a 2MPG fuel economy difference at operating temperature? I don't.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Have there been any UOA's posted on BITOG yet with this oil? In a Toyota engine? With so many using it, I was hoping to see some.

We don't ever have to change our oil again so no more UOAs.


UOA's have been disregarded from this site as evidence of PCMO/HDEO effectiveness, and replaced by which oil has higher VI's but often produces higher wear #'s. Read about why I disagree that M-1 0W-40 is "superior" to other "Euro" spec oils. The only answer I have received is M-1 0W40 is "superior" to 5W40's from other blenders because of higher VI's. TBN retention and wear numbers are dismissed in favor of VI content.


Meh

My logic is that M1 0w40 is the most tested and certified oil of all the 40-weights on the market. That in my mind, makes it the best

 

[ledslinger]

Toyota 0W20 isn't really manufactured, but collected as dew from the breasts of virgin fairies. It requires scant purification and additives save for removing the impurities accidentally introduced by elves who collect the dew drops.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ledslinger
Toyota 0W20 isn't really manufactured, but collected as dew from the breasts of virgin fairies. It requires scant purification and additives save for removing the impurities accidentally introduced by elves who collect the dew drops.


OMG, I'm in stitches over here, BAH HAHAHAHHHAHA

 

[INDYMAC]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Have there been any UOA's posted on BITOG yet with this oil? In a Toyota engine? With so many using it, I was hoping to see some.

There are lots of them. Here's one:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2623790#Post2623790


Yes, I do remember seeing that one. Isn't the Prius a hybrid vehicle? That's the only UOA I can remember seeing though. Hasn't the 0W-20 Toyota oil been on the streets for a few years now? The VOA's look interesting, and kind of all over the place.

Studying the 20 grades is new to me. There seems to be a vary large variety of them out there now. But I have a vested interest and will learn quickly, with real world data hopefully.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

High viscosity index means the oil is thinner before the engine warms up, which results in less hydrodynamic friction before the oil warms up.

The Viscosity Index is a measurement of the rate of change in viscosity as the temperature changes. Higher VI means less change in fluid viscosity as temperature changes so the viscosity measurement of an oil at 40 C and 100 C would be closer than an oil with a lower VI. So if you are trying to say there is less difference in between the performance of a high VI oil at start up (colder temperatures) than after warm up (hotter temperatures) then I would agree with you. But to say that a high VI oil is thinner before the engine warms up is simply incorrect and misleading.

It's the same thing.

There are two numbers in the SAE oil viscosity:

Ax-B

A determines the low-temperature cranking viscosity and low-temperature pumping viscosity, which are both measured at near the minimum temperature the oil can be used.

B determines the kinematic viscosity at 100 C.

SAE does not specify 40 C kinematic viscosity or 0 C kinematic viscosity. These two numbers are entirely determined by an oil's viscosity index -- the higher the viscosity index for a given SAE viscosity grade, the thinner the oil will be at 40 C and 0 C. That's the whole point CATERHAM, I, Toyota, and Sustina are trying to convey about the benefits of the viscosity index: it improves the fuel economy during engine warm-up.

See for example this plot from the Sustina Web site:

W BASE technology -- high-viscosity-index base oil

Typical synthetic base oil is made up of carbon and hydrogen ring-shaped molecular structures. As these structures move, they tend to collide and intertwine, slowing their movement especially at low temperatures, resulting in very high cold start viscosity.

W BASE technology realigns the carbon and hydrogen structure into a relatively straight line, allowing free movement of the molecules even at low temperatures, providing lower engine drag and improved fuel efficiency.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The Toyota 0W-20 has a higher KV100 undoubtedly due to it's higher VII content.

Ah, actually I don't agree with that at all.

You can't simply dump a ton of viscosity-index improvers (VIIs) into an oil in order to obtain an ultra-high viscosity index (VI). There is a limit to the amount of VIIs you can add to the oil, and the oil blenders know that limit very well.

If you add too much VIIs, since they shear temporarily at high shear (high shear is fast and close moving parts; VIIs make the oil a non-Newtonian fluid, which has a lower viscosity at high shear than at low shear), they would result in an HTHS (high-temperature, high-shear) viscosity that is too low, which is not allowed by the SAE specification that limits it to a minimum of 2.6 cP for xW-20.

Also, VIIs are polymers (plastics) and too much of them would ruin an engine with sludge.

Sustina claims that the high VI of their oil is due to the W BASE of Nippon Oil they use, which is the new breed of ultra-high-VI Group III+ base oil. YUBASE of Korea, the largest manufacturer of Group III in the world, also makes the new breed of ultra-high-VI Group III+ base oil.

So, in most likeliness, the high VI of the Toyota 0W-20 is due to the special base oil they use. Is it Group III+, IV, V, or a mixture of them? I don't know and no one knows, except ExxonMobil. The best guess is that it's a mixture of YUBASE or Nippon Group III+ along with ExxonMobil's excellent Group IV and V truly synthetic base oils.

 

[Cooker]

I dont know how many miles you have put on the 0w20 or if you have had warmer than normal temps lately in your region. Something to consider, all of my vehicles benefited from the abnormally warm weather in the last few weeks. My Prius benefited the greatest yielding my best MPG ever, by 2-3MPG more than my previous best, over the last two tanks, and that was with M1 0w40 in it that was supposed to hurt my MPG.

 

[chiks]

Maybe it is just Mobil1 0w-20 spiked with a 3oz of lubegard bio/tech

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Cooker
I dont know how many miles you have put on the 0w20 or if you have had warmer than normal temps lately in your region. Something to consider, all of my vehicles benefited from the abnormally warm weather in the last few weeks. My Prius benefited the greatest yielding my best MPG ever, by 2-3MPG more than my previous best, over the last two tanks, and that was with M1 0w40 in it that was supposed to hurt my MPG.

We still haven't got hit by the heat wave in LA. The temperatures were in the 50s and 60s and occasionally 70s with the last tank I measured the MPG. It was mostly night driving and I would say the average temperature was 60 - 65.

That said, a minor heat wave is finally headed to the Pacific Coast as well, with the highs around 85 today and tomorrow.

 

[mechtech2]

I'm glad the engine oil makes your transmission shift better because it is only a foot away from it.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The Toyota 0W-20 has a higher KV100 undoubtedly due to it's higher VII content.

Ah, actually I don't agree with that at all.

You can't simply dump a ton of viscosity-index improvers (VIIs) into an oil in order to obtain an ultra-high viscosity index (VI). There is a limit to the amount of VIIs you can add to the oil, and the oil blenders know that limit very well.

If you add too much VIIs, since they shear temporarily at high shear (high shear is fast and close moving parts; VIIs make the oil a non-Newtonian fluid, which has a lower viscosity at high shear than at low shear), they would result in an HTHS (high-temperature, high-shear) viscosity that is too low, which is not allowed by the SAE specification that limits it to a minimum of 2.6 cP for xW-20.

Also, VIIs are polymers (plastics) and too much of them would ruin an engine with sludge.

Sustina claims that the high VI of their oil is due to the W BASE of Nippon Oil they use, which is the new breed of ultra-high-VI Group III+ base oil. YUBASE of Korea, the largest manufacturer of Group III in the world, also makes the new breed of ultra-high-VI Group III+ base oil.

So, in most likeliness, the high VI of the Toyota 0W-20 is due to the special base oil they use. Is it Group III+, IV, V, or a mixture of them? I don't know and no one knows, except ExxonMobil. The best guess is that it's a mixture of YUBASE or Nippon Group III+ along with ExxonMobil's excellent Group IV and V truly synthetic base oils.

It still has a lot of VIIs.
Using the Sustina example, the VI of the GP III+ base oil is 145 but the finished oil has a VI of 229.
Optimistcally I'd guess that the Toyota 0W-20 base oil has a VI no higher than 130. So whether you consider the amount of VIIs necessary to bump the finished oil up to 216 as a lot or not, it's certainly a lot more than what is contained in a dino 5W-20.

 

[chiks]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I'm glad the engine oil makes your transmission shift better because it is only a foot away from it.


I have experienced similar with lubegard mixed with engine oil. Probably the fimes get to it

 

[cp3]

from the breasts of virgin fairies eh.....nice!

Well then the infamous Caterham blend must be pretty good stuff then! Or just insanity ruining both highly touted nectars?

At any rate, I'm in the high VI camp. Have yet to notice any ill effects and seem to be getting some of the best mileage out of the G6 since I've had it. Although maybe the wife bought new shoes with out the led inserts.....

Even if there is no benefit, I doubt that this is any worse for my engine than a basic conventional SN/GF-5 that I’m sure would see my cars to a long happy life.

All I can say about the makeup of TGMO is that it would be nice to know, along with almost every other brand discussed here.