The Toyota bottle and the Mobil Super bottles shown above look identical to me. That may tell us something.
Is Toyota 0W-20 SN made in heaven?
- Thread starter Gokhan
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Originally Posted By: Solarent
While the debate about whether or not this Toyota Branded Oil is or is not XOM something is interesting one thing that has thusfar been left out is the API donut used on the jug.
API rules for use is that the oil has to pass all the testing in order to use the donut. If you repackage someone else's oil (such as Toyota has done here) you can continue to use the donut based on the original marketer's certification. IF YOU CHANGE ANY PART of the formula then it must be retested which can take up to 2 years and lots of money (I'm not saying that Toyota didn't do this, but it seems like a lot off unnecessary hassle and business expense.)
There are some additive packages that can be purchased from Infineum, Lubrizol, Afton etc which when blended per their instructions can automatically meet the API requirements and it is possible that XOM has done this for them based on Toyota's base oil requirements. OR XOM may have had one of their 3rd party blenders do just the Toyota oil for them to cut down on the hassles of production.
Toyota Genuine Motor Oil is distributed by ExxonMobil. See this Toyota bulletin. The SN bottle bears the ExxonMobil material codes 98KX51 and 98KX52 on the front and back labels, respectively.
It's licensed by API to Toyota Motor Sales USA, Inc. See the API licensee list.
While the debate about whether or not this Toyota Branded Oil is or is not XOM something is interesting one thing that has thusfar been left out is the API donut used on the jug.
API rules for use is that the oil has to pass all the testing in order to use the donut. If you repackage someone else's oil (such as Toyota has done here) you can continue to use the donut based on the original marketer's certification. IF YOU CHANGE ANY PART of the formula then it must be retested which can take up to 2 years and lots of money (I'm not saying that Toyota didn't do this, but it seems like a lot off unnecessary hassle and business expense.)
There are some additive packages that can be purchased from Infineum, Lubrizol, Afton etc which when blended per their instructions can automatically meet the API requirements and it is possible that XOM has done this for them based on Toyota's base oil requirements. OR XOM may have had one of their 3rd party blenders do just the Toyota oil for them to cut down on the hassles of production.
Toyota Genuine Motor Oil is distributed by ExxonMobil. See this Toyota bulletin. The SN bottle bears the ExxonMobil material codes 98KX51 and 98KX52 on the front and back labels, respectively.
It's licensed by API to Toyota Motor Sales USA, Inc. See the API licensee list.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Colt
I have one oil change of Toyota 0w20 SM left and like the fact it has a lot of moly.
I haven't been reading about the difference between the SN and SM.Only that the SN has very little moly.
How is the SN vs the SM?
Which is better?
Well, SN is simply a better, more advanced spec than SM. Asking if SN is better than SM is in some sense not too different than asking if SM is better than SF.
Infineum, coowned by ExxonMobil and Shell, invented, patented, and makes the trinuclear moly. About 50 - 100 ppm of moly from the trinuclear-moly molecules (which have three Mo atoms per molecule) results in the maximum reduction in fuel economy and maximum protection against engine wear. It's a much, much better formulation of moly than it was used in the SM formulation of Toyota 0W-20 (Akeda S-100 moly from Asaki Denka Kogyo K.K. of Japan), which was dumped into the oil in extremely high concentrations (600 ppm or so) with the hope that it would reduce the fuel economy more. 75 ppm of trinuclear moly gives much better performance than poorly formulated moly such as the Akeda S-100 moly. While there is no proof that Toyota 0W-20 uses trinuclear moly, this is what makes sense most, as ExxonMobil ownes Infineum and Toyota would absolutely not settle for anything less than the best fuel economy, as their main marketing strategy is to crate the most fuel-efficient cars.
Is Toyota 0W-20 better than M1 AFE 0W-20? I think so, but of course, you never know. I think, as CATERHAM said, it definitely has higher fuel-efficiency (less friction) than M1 AFE 0W-20 not only because of the really high viscosity index (216) but also the quality friction modifiers and base oil, along with Toyota's pressure to make the most fuel-efficient oil possible.
The base oil used in it would have to be at least Group III+ like in Sustina because of the extremely high viscosity index. Chances are that ExxonMobil threw in at least some Group IV/V in it. Also remember that Toyota specifies 10,000-mile OCI on its new cars with this oil, meaning that the base oils used in Toyota 0W-20 would have to be really high quality in order to withstand oxidation in prolonged OCIs. Group IV certainly withstands the oxidation most, followed by Group III+.
Thanks for the info,gokhan.
Originally Posted By: Colt
I have one oil change of Toyota 0w20 SM left and like the fact it has a lot of moly.
I haven't been reading about the difference between the SN and SM.Only that the SN has very little moly.
How is the SN vs the SM?
Which is better?
Well, SN is simply a better, more advanced spec than SM. Asking if SN is better than SM is in some sense not too different than asking if SM is better than SF.
Infineum, coowned by ExxonMobil and Shell, invented, patented, and makes the trinuclear moly. About 50 - 100 ppm of moly from the trinuclear-moly molecules (which have three Mo atoms per molecule) results in the maximum reduction in fuel economy and maximum protection against engine wear. It's a much, much better formulation of moly than it was used in the SM formulation of Toyota 0W-20 (Akeda S-100 moly from Asaki Denka Kogyo K.K. of Japan), which was dumped into the oil in extremely high concentrations (600 ppm or so) with the hope that it would reduce the fuel economy more. 75 ppm of trinuclear moly gives much better performance than poorly formulated moly such as the Akeda S-100 moly. While there is no proof that Toyota 0W-20 uses trinuclear moly, this is what makes sense most, as ExxonMobil ownes Infineum and Toyota would absolutely not settle for anything less than the best fuel economy, as their main marketing strategy is to crate the most fuel-efficient cars.
Is Toyota 0W-20 better than M1 AFE 0W-20? I think so, but of course, you never know. I think, as CATERHAM said, it definitely has higher fuel-efficiency (less friction) than M1 AFE 0W-20 not only because of the really high viscosity index (216) but also the quality friction modifiers and base oil, along with Toyota's pressure to make the most fuel-efficient oil possible.
The base oil used in it would have to be at least Group III+ like in Sustina because of the extremely high viscosity index. Chances are that ExxonMobil threw in at least some Group IV/V in it. Also remember that Toyota specifies 10,000-mile OCI on its new cars with this oil, meaning that the base oils used in Toyota 0W-20 would have to be really high quality in order to withstand oxidation in prolonged OCIs. Group IV certainly withstands the oxidation most, followed by Group III+.
Thanks for the info,gokhan.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Blazered
"As a result, gears shift smoothly at low engine output."
Wow, that's impressive. I've never seen a motor oil that works its way into the transmission before.
Angels bless every single bottle
Engines and transmissions work in harmony. If your engine, especially a low-output engine, is not producing sufficient power, the gear shifts will be harsh. Through the added horsepower of reduced friction by Toyota 0W-20, which contains Group III+ and/or IV/V base oil and likely the Infineum trinuclear moly, the engine is less sluggish and the gears shift better as a result.
"Not producing sufficient power". Gotcha, so you gained what, 50HP by changing oils?
Seriously man, put down the kool-aide glass for a second and think about what you are saying here.
I guarantee you that the spread between me running 0w20 and 5w40 in my 5.4L was far, FAR greater, and had far, FAR greater consequences in terms of power output and fuel economy than going from the change between a normal 0w20 and Toyota's 0w20 as represented in your case here. However, I observed no noticeable difference in fuel economy, power, shift performance or the like. The big difference for me was that the lighter oils gave me less noise on start-up and it rolled over faster in the winter. And of course it was less sluggish when -20C out and it was warming up. These are all expected differences. CATERHAM touched on the VI making a start-up difference, and he's likely right in that respect. Though I imagine on a hot day, that difference is going to be far less pronounced. Regardless, the impact during regular operation would be imperceptible. There is no way that the moly is making the difference you are claiming here.
Food for thought: The "butt-o-meter" is only accurate down to gains of about 20HP. Anything less than that cannot be reliably felt by an average person. Do you honestly think you gained 20HP (and this is PEAK HP remember) through an oil change?
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Blazered
"As a result, gears shift smoothly at low engine output."
Wow, that's impressive. I've never seen a motor oil that works its way into the transmission before.
Angels bless every single bottle
Engines and transmissions work in harmony. If your engine, especially a low-output engine, is not producing sufficient power, the gear shifts will be harsh. Through the added horsepower of reduced friction by Toyota 0W-20, which contains Group III+ and/or IV/V base oil and likely the Infineum trinuclear moly, the engine is less sluggish and the gears shift better as a result.
"Not producing sufficient power". Gotcha, so you gained what, 50HP by changing oils?
Seriously man, put down the kool-aide glass for a second and think about what you are saying here.
I guarantee you that the spread between me running 0w20 and 5w40 in my 5.4L was far, FAR greater, and had far, FAR greater consequences in terms of power output and fuel economy than going from the change between a normal 0w20 and Toyota's 0w20 as represented in your case here. However, I observed no noticeable difference in fuel economy, power, shift performance or the like. The big difference for me was that the lighter oils gave me less noise on start-up and it rolled over faster in the winter. And of course it was less sluggish when -20C out and it was warming up. These are all expected differences. CATERHAM touched on the VI making a start-up difference, and he's likely right in that respect. Though I imagine on a hot day, that difference is going to be far less pronounced. Regardless, the impact during regular operation would be imperceptible. There is no way that the moly is making the difference you are claiming here.
Food for thought: The "butt-o-meter" is only accurate down to gains of about 20HP. Anything less than that cannot be reliably felt by an average person. Do you honestly think you gained 20HP (and this is PEAK HP remember) through an oil change?
I can awnser your question easily, no it wasn't.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Blazered
"As a result, gears shift smoothly at low engine output."
Wow, that's impressive. I've never seen a motor oil that works its way into the transmission before.
Angels bless every single bottle
Engines and transmissions work in harmony. If your engine, especially a low-output engine, is not producing sufficient power, the gear shifts will be harsh. Through the added horsepower of reduced friction by Toyota 0W-20, which contains Group III+ and/or IV/V base oil and likely the Infineum trinuclear moly, the engine is less sluggish and the gears shift better as a result.
"Not producing sufficient power". Gotcha, so you gained what, 50HP by changing oils?
Seriously man, put down the kool-aide glass for a second and think about what you are saying here.
I guarantee you that the spread between me running 0w20 and 5w40 in my 5.4L was far, FAR greater, and had far, FAR greater consequences in terms of power output and fuel economy than going from the change between a normal 0w20 and Toyota's 0w20 as represented in your case here. However, I observed no noticeable difference in fuel economy, power, shift performance or the like. The big difference for me was that the lighter oils gave me less noise on start-up and it rolled over faster in the winter. And of course it was less sluggish when -20C out and it was warming up. These are all expected differences. CATERHAM touched on the VI making a start-up difference, and he's likely right in that respect. Though I imagine on a hot day, that difference is going to be far less pronounced. Regardless, the impact during regular operation would be imperceptible. There is no way that the moly is making the difference you are claiming here.
Food for thought: The "butt-o-meter" is only accurate down to gains of about 20HP. Anything less than that cannot be reliably felt by an average person. Do you honestly think you gained 20HP (and this is PEAK HP remember) through an oil change?
Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Blazered
"As a result, gears shift smoothly at low engine output."
Wow, that's impressive. I've never seen a motor oil that works its way into the transmission before.
Angels bless every single bottle
Engines and transmissions work in harmony. If your engine, especially a low-output engine, is not producing sufficient power, the gear shifts will be harsh. Through the added horsepower of reduced friction by Toyota 0W-20, which contains Group III+ and/or IV/V base oil and likely the Infineum trinuclear moly, the engine is less sluggish and the gears shift better as a result.
"Not producing sufficient power". Gotcha, so you gained what, 50HP by changing oils?
Seriously man, put down the kool-aide glass for a second and think about what you are saying here.
I guarantee you that the spread between me running 0w20 and 5w40 in my 5.4L was far, FAR greater, and had far, FAR greater consequences in terms of power output and fuel economy than going from the change between a normal 0w20 and Toyota's 0w20 as represented in your case here. However, I observed no noticeable difference in fuel economy, power, shift performance or the like. The big difference for me was that the lighter oils gave me less noise on start-up and it rolled over faster in the winter. And of course it was less sluggish when -20C out and it was warming up. These are all expected differences. CATERHAM touched on the VI making a start-up difference, and he's likely right in that respect. Though I imagine on a hot day, that difference is going to be far less pronounced. Regardless, the impact during regular operation would be imperceptible. There is no way that the moly is making the difference you are claiming here.
Food for thought: The "butt-o-meter" is only accurate down to gains of about 20HP. Anything less than that cannot be reliably felt by an average person. Do you honestly think you gained 20HP (and this is PEAK HP remember) through an oil change?
Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
It's licensed by API to Toyota Motor Sales USA, Inc. See the API licensee list.
I never was disputing the fact that Toyota licensed this oil, all I was saying is that it makes more business sense for them to be granted the license on the basis that it is a repackaged product (which is one of the ways you can obtain an API license) than to go through the long approval process. And if that is what they did, then the formula wouldn't have changed from whatever XOM product they are having packaged for them.
It's licensed by API to Toyota Motor Sales USA, Inc. See the API licensee list.
I never was disputing the fact that Toyota licensed this oil, all I was saying is that it makes more business sense for them to be granted the license on the basis that it is a repackaged product (which is one of the ways you can obtain an API license) than to go through the long approval process. And if that is what they did, then the formula wouldn't have changed from whatever XOM product they are having packaged for them.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
... I'm not one for subjective evaluations but most people can notice the difference between large differences in oil grades, say a 20wt and a 40wt; i.e., the car being so much more sluggish with the 40wt particularly when cold.
Well there is a similar difference in actual operational viscosity on start-up between the Toyota 0W-20 and a typical 5W-20, even a 5W-20 synthetic. It's about 35% lighter at room temperature and more than 50% at 0C.
... .
Well put, CAT.
I might add my peeve.
In this second Dark Age where subjectivism is poo-poo'd and false "facts" trump all discourse, those numb and untrusting of all sensational experience, come hither and learn! For those into specmanship, recall the 40degC kinematic viscosity reported in most all PDS for most all lubricants. Know that 40 degC, where this "hot start" measurement is calculated, is 104 degrees Farenheit. That is dang HOTout! Learn now, too, that extra high VI oils, like this Toyota 0w20 and the Idemitsu Subaru of the same grade, may demonstrate a viscosity of 10 to 20cSt LOWER than many 5w20 conventional lubricants and taken at Summer-like ambient tempreatures ... 10 to 20cSt! - the complete viscosity spread from water to a SAE30. Now imagine the even greater difference at a much cooler 50 degress F. If you can't feel "something" or see this on your OP gauge, you are may be driving a numb-mobile or, worse, have spun a cocoon of your own device. Become to trust your senses as far as is sensible! We are so familiar with our daily-drivers, and moreso if they be small MT-geared ecoboxes for sure, but I bet most could tell if one of these super-duper wide VI lubricants were substituted in your next OC, for that "any old" 5w20 that's in your sump now. Astonishing!
Cheers.
... I'm not one for subjective evaluations but most people can notice the difference between large differences in oil grades, say a 20wt and a 40wt; i.e., the car being so much more sluggish with the 40wt particularly when cold.
Well there is a similar difference in actual operational viscosity on start-up between the Toyota 0W-20 and a typical 5W-20, even a 5W-20 synthetic. It's about 35% lighter at room temperature and more than 50% at 0C.
... .
Well put, CAT.
I might add my peeve.
In this second Dark Age where subjectivism is poo-poo'd and false "facts" trump all discourse, those numb and untrusting of all sensational experience, come hither and learn! For those into specmanship, recall the 40degC kinematic viscosity reported in most all PDS for most all lubricants. Know that 40 degC, where this "hot start" measurement is calculated, is 104 degrees Farenheit. That is dang HOTout! Learn now, too, that extra high VI oils, like this Toyota 0w20 and the Idemitsu Subaru of the same grade, may demonstrate a viscosity of 10 to 20cSt LOWER than many 5w20 conventional lubricants and taken at Summer-like ambient tempreatures ... 10 to 20cSt! - the complete viscosity spread from water to a SAE30. Now imagine the even greater difference at a much cooler 50 degress F. If you can't feel "something" or see this on your OP gauge, you are may be driving a numb-mobile or, worse, have spun a cocoon of your own device. Become to trust your senses as far as is sensible! We are so familiar with our daily-drivers, and moreso if they be small MT-geared ecoboxes for sure, but I bet most could tell if one of these super-duper wide VI lubricants were substituted in your next OC, for that "any old" 5w20 that's in your sump now. Astonishing!
Cheers.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
It's licensed by API to Toyota Motor Sales USA, Inc. See the API licensee list.
I never was disputing the fact that Toyota licensed this oil, all I was saying is that it makes more business sense for them to be granted the license on the basis that it is a repackaged product (which is one of the ways you can obtain an API license) than to go through the long approval process. And if that is what they did, then the formula wouldn't have changed from whatever XOM product they are having packaged for them.
There is no other ExxonMobil 0W-20 product even remotely similar in physical and chemical properties to Toyota 0W-20 SN.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
It's licensed by API to Toyota Motor Sales USA, Inc. See the API licensee list.
I never was disputing the fact that Toyota licensed this oil, all I was saying is that it makes more business sense for them to be granted the license on the basis that it is a repackaged product (which is one of the ways you can obtain an API license) than to go through the long approval process. And if that is what they did, then the formula wouldn't have changed from whatever XOM product they are having packaged for them.
There is no other ExxonMobil 0W-20 product even remotely similar in physical and chemical properties to Toyota 0W-20 SN.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.
While PYB 5w20 isn't a star (150VI, 14.7% NOACK....etc) its vis of 8.4 at 100C is actually lower than the Toyota 0w20 at 8.54. So at operating temps, the PYB was actually thinner. Which would then mean that the only difference would have to be the Moly. You are honestly going to tell me that you gained 2MPG running a slightly heavier oil just because it has more Moly in it?
Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.
While PYB 5w20 isn't a star (150VI, 14.7% NOACK....etc) its vis of 8.4 at 100C is actually lower than the Toyota 0w20 at 8.54. So at operating temps, the PYB was actually thinner. Which would then mean that the only difference would have to be the Moly. You are honestly going to tell me that you gained 2MPG running a slightly heavier oil just because it has more Moly in it?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
... I'm not one for subjective evaluations but most people can notice the difference between large differences in oil grades, say a 20wt and a 40wt; i.e., the car being so much more sluggish with the 40wt particularly when cold.
Well there is a similar difference in actual operational viscosity on start-up between the Toyota 0W-20 and a typical 5W-20, even a 5W-20 synthetic. It's about 35% lighter at room temperature and more than 50% at 0C.
... .
Well put, CAT.
I might add my peeve.
In this second Dark Age where subjectivism is poo-poo'd and false "facts" trump all discourse, those numb and untrusting of all sensational experience, come hither and learn! For those into specmanship, recall the 40degC kinematic viscosity reported in most all PDS for most all lubricants. Know that 40 degC, where this "hot start" measurement is calculated, is 104 degrees Farenheit. That is dang HOTout! Learn now, too, that extra high VI oils, like this Toyota 0w20 and the Idemitsu Subaru of the same grade, may demonstrate a viscosity of 10 to 20cSt LOWER than many 5w20 conventional lubricants and taken at Summer-like ambient tempreatures ... 10 to 20cSt! - the complete viscosity spread from water to a SAE30. Now imagine the difference at a much cooler 50 degress F. If you can't feel something or see this on your OPG you are mosrt likely driving a numbmobile or have spun a cocoon of your own device. We are all familaier wiht our DD's, and moreso with small MT ecoboxes for sure, but I bet most could tell if one of these supr wide VI lubricants were substituted in you next OC for that "any old or HM 5w20 thats in your sump now.
Cheers.
The spread between the OP's oils at 40C was ~10cSt.
Toyota 0w20: 37.38
Pen YB 5w20: 47.3
He lives in LA.
Any temp above that, the difference gets narrower and narrower until we hit 100C, where the PYB is actually thinner.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
... I'm not one for subjective evaluations but most people can notice the difference between large differences in oil grades, say a 20wt and a 40wt; i.e., the car being so much more sluggish with the 40wt particularly when cold.
Well there is a similar difference in actual operational viscosity on start-up between the Toyota 0W-20 and a typical 5W-20, even a 5W-20 synthetic. It's about 35% lighter at room temperature and more than 50% at 0C.
... .
Well put, CAT.
I might add my peeve.
In this second Dark Age where subjectivism is poo-poo'd and false "facts" trump all discourse, those numb and untrusting of all sensational experience, come hither and learn! For those into specmanship, recall the 40degC kinematic viscosity reported in most all PDS for most all lubricants. Know that 40 degC, where this "hot start" measurement is calculated, is 104 degrees Farenheit. That is dang HOTout! Learn now, too, that extra high VI oils, like this Toyota 0w20 and the Idemitsu Subaru of the same grade, may demonstrate a viscosity of 10 to 20cSt LOWER than many 5w20 conventional lubricants and taken at Summer-like ambient tempreatures ... 10 to 20cSt! - the complete viscosity spread from water to a SAE30. Now imagine the difference at a much cooler 50 degress F. If you can't feel something or see this on your OPG you are mosrt likely driving a numbmobile or have spun a cocoon of your own device. We are all familaier wiht our DD's, and moreso with small MT ecoboxes for sure, but I bet most could tell if one of these supr wide VI lubricants were substituted in you next OC for that "any old or HM 5w20 thats in your sump now.
Cheers.
The spread between the OP's oils at 40C was ~10cSt.
Toyota 0w20: 37.38
Pen YB 5w20: 47.3
He lives in LA.
Any temp above that, the difference gets narrower and narrower until we hit 100C, where the PYB is actually thinner.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.
While PYB 5w20 isn't a star (150VI, 14.7% NOACK....etc) its vis of 8.4 at 100C is actually lower than the Toyota 0w20 at 8.54. So at operating temps, the PYB was actually thinner. Which would then mean that the only difference would have to be the Moly. You are honestly going to tell me that you gained 2MPG running a slightly heavier oil just because it has more Moly in it?
Synthetic base oil has less surface friction than dino. Group IV is the best, followed by Group III+, in reducing surface friction. Add the trinuclear moly on top of that, you get the least possible surface friction. Then you add the higher viscosity index, you also get a reduction in hydrodynamic friction in addition to the surface friction. Therefore, a few HP increase with a top-quality oil isn't unreasonable.
The higher viscosity index also improves the fuel economy and horsepower before the engine warms up.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.
While PYB 5w20 isn't a star (150VI, 14.7% NOACK....etc) its vis of 8.4 at 100C is actually lower than the Toyota 0w20 at 8.54. So at operating temps, the PYB was actually thinner. Which would then mean that the only difference would have to be the Moly. You are honestly going to tell me that you gained 2MPG running a slightly heavier oil just because it has more Moly in it?
Synthetic base oil has less surface friction than dino. Group IV is the best, followed by Group III+, in reducing surface friction. Add the trinuclear moly on top of that, you get the least possible surface friction. Then you add the higher viscosity index, you also get a reduction in hydrodynamic friction in addition to the surface friction. Therefore, a few HP increase with a top-quality oil isn't unreasonable.
The higher viscosity index also improves the fuel economy and horsepower before the engine warms up.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.
While PYB 5w20 isn't a star (150VI, 14.7% NOACK....etc) its vis of 8.4 at 100C is actually lower than the Toyota 0w20 at 8.54. So at operating temps, the PYB was actually thinner. Which would then mean that the only difference would have to be the Moly. You are honestly going to tell me that you gained 2MPG running a slightly heavier oil just because it has more Moly in it?
Synthetic base oil has less surface friction than dino. Group IV is the best, followed by Group III+, in reducing surface friction. Add the trinuclear moly on top of that, you get the least possible surface friction. Then you add the higher viscosity index, you also get a reduction in hydrodynamic friction in addition to the surface friction. Therefore, a few HP increase with a top-quality oil isn't unreasonable.
The higher viscosity index also improves the fuel economy and horsepower before the engine warms up.
I'm not arguing the benefits during warm-up, they are obvious, and I noted them in my other reply.
I'm arguing that I cannot digest a 2MPG gain going to a slightly heavier oil that is likely just a high VI Group III+ oil with a higher dose of Moly. The gains just seem far too large to me.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.
While PYB 5w20 isn't a star (150VI, 14.7% NOACK....etc) its vis of 8.4 at 100C is actually lower than the Toyota 0w20 at 8.54. So at operating temps, the PYB was actually thinner. Which would then mean that the only difference would have to be the Moly. You are honestly going to tell me that you gained 2MPG running a slightly heavier oil just because it has more Moly in it?
Synthetic base oil has less surface friction than dino. Group IV is the best, followed by Group III+, in reducing surface friction. Add the trinuclear moly on top of that, you get the least possible surface friction. Then you add the higher viscosity index, you also get a reduction in hydrodynamic friction in addition to the surface friction. Therefore, a few HP increase with a top-quality oil isn't unreasonable.
The higher viscosity index also improves the fuel economy and horsepower before the engine warms up.
I'm not arguing the benefits during warm-up, they are obvious, and I noted them in my other reply.
I'm arguing that I cannot digest a 2MPG gain going to a slightly heavier oil that is likely just a high VI Group III+ oil with a higher dose of Moly. The gains just seem far too large to me.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.
Oh please, what a load of... you know what.
Please track your fuel economy over the entire OCI instead of one tank and then we can have a somewhat meaningful discussion.
"...huge difference in engine friction..."? Yeah right!
Every car is different. With this 74 HP car, you can feel the better shifts even with only about 5% difference. You wouldn't feel the effect at full or half throttle but it's highly noticeable at gentle, low throttle. From PYB (Pennzoil yellow bottle) 5W-20 to Toyota 0W-20, it made a huge difference in engine friction and the shifts at low throttle are definitely smoother. Also, the fuel economy got higher by about 5%. I got 32 MPG on Toyota 0W-20 SN. PYB 5W-20 SN wouldn't give me more than 30 MPG.
Oh please, what a load of... you know what.
Please track your fuel economy over the entire OCI instead of one tank and then we can have a somewhat meaningful discussion.
"...huge difference in engine friction..."? Yeah right!
I don't want to be that guy but can you please explain what you mean by:
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Then you add the higher viscosity index, you also get a reduction in hydrodynamic friction in addition to the surface friction. Therefore, a few HP increase with a top-quality oil isn't unreasonable.
The higher viscosity index also improves the fuel economy and horsepower before the engine warms up.
I'm just completely taken back by your statements. Please explain your reasoning.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Then you add the higher viscosity index, you also get a reduction in hydrodynamic friction in addition to the surface friction. Therefore, a few HP increase with a top-quality oil isn't unreasonable.
The higher viscosity index also improves the fuel economy and horsepower before the engine warms up.
I'm just completely taken back by your statements. Please explain your reasoning.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I'm arguing that I cannot digest a 2MPG gain going to a slightly heavier oil that is likely just a high VI Group III+ oil with a higher dose of Moly. The gains just seem far too large to me.
It's not just the viscosity that matters, which determines the hydrodynamic friction. Synthetic base oils have a lot less surface friction than dino base oils. See Page 13 of this article, which shows that Group III+ has half the surface friction of Group II and almost as low surface friction as Group IV. Also, dino base oil oxidizes quickly and it has even a lot worse surface friction when it's used due to oxidation.
If you choose a top-notch Group IV or III+ (which is the new breed of high-VI Group III) base oil and put the Infineum trinuclear moly on top of it, you will see a significant benefit in surface-friction reduction throughout the oil's life.
I'm arguing that I cannot digest a 2MPG gain going to a slightly heavier oil that is likely just a high VI Group III+ oil with a higher dose of Moly. The gains just seem far too large to me.
It's not just the viscosity that matters, which determines the hydrodynamic friction. Synthetic base oils have a lot less surface friction than dino base oils. See Page 13 of this article, which shows that Group III+ has half the surface friction of Group II and almost as low surface friction as Group IV. Also, dino base oil oxidizes quickly and it has even a lot worse surface friction when it's used due to oxidation.
If you choose a top-notch Group IV or III+ (which is the new breed of high-VI Group III) base oil and put the Infineum trinuclear moly on top of it, you will see a significant benefit in surface-friction reduction throughout the oil's life.
Have there been any UOA's posted on BITOG yet with this oil? In a Toyota engine? With so many using it, I was hoping to see some.
Originally Posted By: Solarent
I don't want to be that guy but can you please explain what you mean by:
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Then you add the higher viscosity index, you also get a reduction in hydrodynamic friction in addition to the surface friction. Therefore, a few HP increase with a top-quality oil isn't unreasonable.
The higher viscosity index also improves the fuel economy and horsepower before the engine warms up.
I'm just completely taken back by your statements. Please explain your reasoning.
OK, the engines have hydrodynamically (oil pushed between by the motion of moving parts) lubricated (bearings and part of the cylinders/rings), mixed-lubricated (part of the cylinders/rings), and boundary- (direct metal-to-metal contact) lubricated (valvetrain) parts.
The friction in hydrodynamic lubrication is determined by the dynamic viscosity -- lower the dynamic viscosity, the lower is the hydrodynamic friction (with the caveat that thinner the protective hydrodynamic oil film). The friction in boundary lubrication is mostly determined by the surface friction, which is in turn determined by the type of the base oil (Group IV is the best, followed by Group III+, etc.) and friction modifiers (moly etc.)
Note that mixed lubrication falls in between hydrodynamic and boundary lubrication.
High viscosity index means the oil is thinner before the engine warms up, which results in less hydrodynamic friction before the oil warms up.
I don't want to be that guy but can you please explain what you mean by:
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Then you add the higher viscosity index, you also get a reduction in hydrodynamic friction in addition to the surface friction. Therefore, a few HP increase with a top-quality oil isn't unreasonable.
The higher viscosity index also improves the fuel economy and horsepower before the engine warms up.
I'm just completely taken back by your statements. Please explain your reasoning.
OK, the engines have hydrodynamically (oil pushed between by the motion of moving parts) lubricated (bearings and part of the cylinders/rings), mixed-lubricated (part of the cylinders/rings), and boundary- (direct metal-to-metal contact) lubricated (valvetrain) parts.
The friction in hydrodynamic lubrication is determined by the dynamic viscosity -- lower the dynamic viscosity, the lower is the hydrodynamic friction (with the caveat that thinner the protective hydrodynamic oil film). The friction in boundary lubrication is mostly determined by the surface friction, which is in turn determined by the type of the base oil (Group IV is the best, followed by Group III+, etc.) and friction modifiers (moly etc.)
Note that mixed lubrication falls in between hydrodynamic and boundary lubrication.
High viscosity index means the oil is thinner before the engine warms up, which results in less hydrodynamic friction before the oil warms up.
Gokhan I appreciate your refreshing views and this is discussion is a lot more constructive than the "thick thin" debates, but there is a couple of counterpoints I would like to add. Yes it is true higher VI and lower SAE grade of oils reduces viscous losses but increases frictional losses. To counter the fictional losses often a anti-wear "boundary" is formed by the formulation of the friction modifier additives. Group III/IV base oils themselves are not a good lubricant, if I am relaying on just base oil for lubrication I prefer a group I oil. The advantages of "synthetic" base stock besides the higher VI's, is the ability to resist oxidation and "better" additive retention. Thus to help prevent frictional loses a group III/IV is reliant on a boundary lubricity additives and the effectiveness of the boundary is dependent on the formulation of that layer with all other factors.
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Have there been any UOA's posted on BITOG yet with this oil? In a Toyota engine? With so many using it, I was hoping to see some.
We don't ever have to change our oil again so no more UOAs.
Have there been any UOA's posted on BITOG yet with this oil? In a Toyota engine? With so many using it, I was hoping to see some.
We don't ever have to change our oil again so no more UOAs.
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