BMW synthetic 5w-30 vs German Castrol

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Originally Posted By: sprintman
I sure wouldn't put 5W30 in my BMW. Needs HTHS 3.5 at least. Do either of the oils mentioned have a HTHS of 3.5?


BMW 5W-30 will have HTHS somewhere between 3.5 and 3.6 and, if to judge by 0W-40 VOA, it may have a decent additive package. The only deficiency from purists' point of view it is not 100% synthetic. However, nowaydays it's nearly impossible to find a true 100% synthetic oil from big manufacturers on the shelves. I don't know why people are still convinced that 0W-X oils are 100% PAO or a blend of PAO and Esters. In better case it will be a blend of Gr.III and PAO or PAO and Gr.III.

I would also point out that for some BMW engines (mostly "N" type) it is allowed/recommended to use BMW Quality Longlife - 01 FE 0W-30 which has HTHS = 3.0. Interesting that on the back label it's mentionned that this oil contains MoDTC. Analogues are Castrol SLX LL 01 FE, Castrol SLX Professional Fuel Saver BMW LL01-FE and Agip 7007.
 
Originally Posted By: Primus
BMW 5W-30 will have HTHS somewhere between 3.5 and 3.6 and, if to judge by 0W-40 VOA, it may have a decent additive package.


I appology for my blind enthusiasm with BMW - I did not notice at once that today BMW 5-30 is LL-04 (unlike LL-01 in the past). This understands a reduced additive package and therefore there is nothing special in this oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Primus
Originally Posted By: Primus
BMW 5W-30 will have HTHS somewhere between 3.5 and 3.6 and, if to judge by 0W-40 VOA, it may have a decent additive package.


I appology for my blind enthusiasm with BMW - I did not notice at once that today BMW 5-30 is LL-04 (unlike LL-01 in the past). This understands a reduced additive package and therefore there is nothing special in this oil.

Maybe it varies from country to country, but in the US, the BMW 5w-30 oil is not LL-04. Heck, last time I checked there were no specs listed on the bottle at all; however, BMW in the US specifically advises against the use of LL-04 oils in their gasoline engines citing various fuel quality issues (sulfur? ethanol?), telling people to use LL-01 instead, hence one would think that they would heed their own advice and not use LL-04 oils themselves.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Maybe it varies from country to country, but in the US, the BMW 5w-30 oil is not LL-04.


I knew that BMW engine metallurgy for USA differed from those for Europe, but I did not expect that they were also flexible in respect of oils. Quite unusual because BMW TIS should be valid for all countries and according to TIS 8/2007 BMW 5W-30 LL-01 was discontinued and substituted by LL-04. In reality it could happen a little but earlier.

Part numbers (for 1 liter):
BMW Quality Longlife-01 - 83 21 0 144 450
BMW Quality Longlife-04 - 83 21 0 398 507

If you are sure that your 5W-30 is not LL-04, then its properties may be similar to those in indicated in PDS of CASTROL SLX Professional Longtec BMW LL01 5W-30 (2006):

Code:


Viscosity @40,°C 73.9

Viscosity @100,°C 11.9

Viscosity index 157

Kyn.viscosity (CCS) @–30 °C, cP 5295

FP ASTM D93(PMCC),°C 205

PP,°C -48

TBN 11.0

Calcium 3280

Phosphorus 930

Zinc 1020
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Primus

Quite unusual because BMW TIS should be valid for all countries and according to TIS 8/2007 BMW 5W-30 LL-01 was discontinued and substituted by LL-04.

Page below is directly from TIS, circa 2009. See footnote (2) at the bottom.

BMW_oil_type_by_engine_5_2009.png



Quote:
Part numbers (for 1 liter):
BMW Quality Longlife-01 - 83 21 0 144 450
BMW Quality Longlife-04 - 83 21 0 398 507

The part number for BMW 5w-30 that's listed on BMWUSA page is 07 51 0 017 866.

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/owner/syntheticengineoils.aspx

Although that page hasn't been updated since 2008.
 
Originally Posted By: Primus
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Maybe it varies from country to country, but in the US, the BMW 5w-30 oil is not LL-04.


I knew that BMW engine metallurgy for USA differed from those for Europe, but I did not expect that they were also flexible in respect of oils. Quite unusual because BMW TIS should be valid for all countries and according to TIS 8/2007 BMW 5W-30 LL-01 was discontinued and substituted by LL-04. In reality it could happen a little but earlier.

Part numbers (for 1 liter):
BMW Quality Longlife-01 - 83 21 0 144 450
BMW Quality Longlife-04 - 83 21 0 398 507

If you are sure that your 5W-30 is not LL-04, then its properties may be similar to those in indicated in PDS of CASTROL SLX Professional Longtec BMW LL01 5W-30 (2006):

Code:


Viscosity @40,°C 73.9

Viscosity @100,°C 11.9

Viscosity index 157

Kyn.viscosity (CCS) @–30 °C, cP 5295

FP ASTM D93(PMCC),°C 205

PP,°C -48

TBN 11.0

Calcium 3280

Phosphorus 930

Zinc 1020

The engines are the same it's about emissions. DI cars can't run in lean burn mode because NOX exceeds our limits. So US engines run richer. In addition US gas has 30ppm sulphur limit and we uses ethanol. BMW really didn't have any choice with the factory OCI. US diesels use LL04 because we burn 15ppm ULSD.
 
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
The engines are the same it's about emissions.


Obviously you have missed that some BMW engines supplied to USA market were different in metallurgy from European analogues because of sulphur content in US gas.
 
Originally Posted By: Primus
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
The engines are the same it's about emissions.


Obviously you have missed that some BMW engines supplied to USA market were different in metallurgy from European analogues because of sulphur content in US gas.

Primus, this is news to me as well. Can you provide a link to the source of this info? Thanks.
 
New BMW engines are known for valve noise at starts up, so after reading Ferrari's guy about oil 101, I went go ahead and replaced BMW oil with 0W-30 Castrol SPT. Today was cool morning 65F at 5:00 am and I didn't drive on Sunday, so right after start up, engine was quite, like it's at operating temp. Used be on same cool mornings (65F), first 5 sec or less engine would produce distinct valve noise ta-ta-ta….., and would be longer in winter time, yes it's not air pump noise. So I guess this Ferrari's guy is right about 0W-X oil. I didn't go with 0W-20 just because I don't want go away from A3/B3 specification, its might some meaning for BMW, as they specify for engines. I need to do more research before I go on that route.
Also I had only just less then 5,000 miles on BMW brand oil.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: windnsea00
Originally Posted By: KenO
Originally Posted By: Jim 5
Originally Posted By: docvb
Am I the only that does not like the BMW synth oil? Although everyone says the same thing, " this is good, this is a sleeper, the stuff is robust...."

Have you ever seen the stuff?

It has a red-like tint (yes, it stains) that is obviously cosmetic (and therefore distrusted) and is very jell-like, most unlike any other synthetic oil I've ever had experience with. It is certainly unlike any 5W-30 oil and quite unlike GC.

And then there's the sludge issue. You figure that most of the sludged cars were running the synthetic bmw lube.

And then there's the cost issue. The stuff is cheaper at a BMW DEALERSHIP than real synthetics at WALMART. This suggests to me that the actual product value is 40 cents a quart to the BMW stealership. No way this is a quality product.

Anyone else with these same suspicions?
\


Have I ever seen it? Sure...seen it, used it, UOA'd it, had UOA results analysed by a well respected professional. You... "it looks very gel-like".

Apart from that observation, I'm not sure what you're basing your suspicions upon, but that's the problem with suspicions. My statements are based upon reviews of UOA's on this site (using the search function, you can too), my UOA's, and Terry Dyson's comments on my UOAs.

BMW Synthetic is known to be Castrol Softec TXT 5w-30, which is not a cheap oil. It is not marketed outside BMW dealerships in North America. If you were going to buy it in Europe, you'd likely pay well over $20/L.

Also, I'm not sure why it would be suggested that BMW would recommend and bottle its own oil if it didn't meet its own LL-01 spec. However, if you have any doubt, here is the product specification on Softec TXT:

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_int...1_B1567_02.pdf.

Finally, the sludged bmw's I'm aware of missed a few oil changes. Missing a few oil changes in this context means they went close to 50k miles on one fill of oil.

I choose GC because its about the same price as BMW dealership oil, and its cold properties are better. I don't think you'd see much difference in UOA's even at 10k miles between the two. I would say the same thing between GC and RTS 5w-40....again, based on UOA's.


http://www.performingimports.com/maint.htm

Take a look at the pictures to the right. I'm familiar with that shop personally, The owner is an automotive engineer, came here from Germany, and was formerly an employee of Mercedes Benz in Germany. The majority of these engines sludge with the BMW oil taken to the SI light recommendation. Unfortunately, it's not very consistent, some engines do, some simply don't. I think it also has to do with the way the vehicle is driven as well. These engines like being driven hard, it's what they were designed for.

Very true about the driving characteristic. I have a feeling a good deal of the sludged up engines that aren't very high in miles are simply from people putting around town never going over 3k rpms!


I figure it's what happens when posers buy the cars for the show of it, never using the capability built in. Don't have to push it too hard on the way to being seen at the Yacht Klub.
 
it could be too, remmember it's luxury car and of course a lot people is buying as luxury brand like anything else in the world.
 
I posted same post at Euro GC, bt decide to report here as well.
'm looking for answers, really bad.
So I did replaced my BMW 5w-30 oil with Castrol SPT 0W-30 LL01, so then my friend did as well. We did because on morning engine start it could hear valve train noise for couple seconds, so going from 5W- to 0W it seems to me helps. I have V8 so I didn't noticed any power change, but my friend is saying he could feel his car (I-6 none turbo) is heavy on acceleration, same as we tried to use Mobil 0W-40 compare to BMW OEM oil 5W-30. It seems to me BMW OEM oil is not same viscosity @100C as Castrol and Mobil 12.2 and plus, does BMW sell to us cheap oil? If you look at the price for OEM BMW oil is just around 6.25 to 6.50 per qt, that is about price of the blend oils.

So my question is how is important that A3/B3 qualification for BMW engines, if I'm changing oil every 5,000 to 7,000 miles anyway?

Also you take a look at list below viscosities @100C for different type of oil. So my logic is if the first number is important only @40C, then during normal driving and engine at operating temperature the only second number is important for acceleration and ect.
So If you see all xW-30 BMW LL01 oils are around 12.2 and +, which is about xW-40 oils.
But if A3/B3 group is not important then I would like to try Mobil 0W-30, that is looked like more true xW-30 oil.
Please opinions.
Thanks
Castrol Edge with SPT
Castrol 0w-30 viscosity @100C 12.21 BMW LL01
Castrol 5w-30 viscosity @100C 10.70
Castrol 5W-40 viscosity @100C 13.9 BMW LL01
Castrol 5w-20 viscosity @100C 8.88
Castrol 0W-20 viscosity @100C 8.65

Castrol Titanium:
Castrol 0W-20 viscosity @100C 8.6
Castrol 5W-20 viscosity @100C 9.1
Castrol 5W-30 viscosity @100C 9.8

British Castrol
All Castrol 5W-30 viscosity @100C 11.9 to 12.0 LL01 or not LL01
But BMW 0W-30 viscosity @100C 12.3

Mobil
Mobil 5W-30 viscosity @100C 11.0
Mobil 5W-30 viscosity @100C 12.1 BMW LL04
Mobil 0W-30 viscosity @100C 10.9
Mobil 0W-40 viscosity @100C 13.5 LL01
Mobil 0W-20 viscosity @100C 8.7
Mobil 5W-20 viscosity @100C 8.9
 
Originally Posted By: phlfly

So my question is how is important that A3/B3 qualification for BMW engines, if I'm changing oil every 5,000 to 7,000 miles anyway?

Also you take a look at list below viscosities @100C for different type of oil. So my logic is if the first number is important only @40C, then during normal driving and engine at operating temperature the only second number is important for acceleration and ect.
So If you see all xW-30 BMW LL01 oils are around 12.2 and +, which is about xW-40 oils.
But if A3/B3 group is not important then I would like to try Mobil 0W-30, that is looked like more true xW-30 oil.
Please opinions.
Mobil 0W-30 viscosity @100C 10.9
Mobil 0W-40 viscosity @100C 13.5 LL01


100C vis is very important - almost as important as 150C vis (HTHS). How hot do you think things get deep inside the engine, like in the ring belt for instance?
And BMWs are built for 150C vis/HTHS to be >3.5
Which the 0W30 with 100C vis won't have.
IMHO M1 0W40 is the best you can buy.

Charlie
 
So is this case another question if the difference in viscosity @100C about 3-4 units, but viscosity @150C is about .5 units, so would it be so much to a big deal?

Thanks
 
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