Competing Additives?

[Gebo]

In my engines and gas tank I have used every product you can imagine over the last 30 years.

Is it possible that in using different products in succession, we are actually hurting ourselves as some products may actually hurt the effectiveness of another product? Le't say we are using "X" on one OCI and then following with "Y" on the next OCI. Could the residual "X" left in the engine interfere with the "Y"?

Maybe we would be better off having a straight oil run between treatments?

 

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted By: Gebo
In my engines and gas tank I have used every product you can imagine over the last 30 years.

Is it possible that in using different products in succession, we are actually hurting ourselves as some products may actually hurt the effectiveness of another product? Le't say we are using "X" on one OCI and then following with "Y" on the next OCI. Could the residual "X" left in the engine interfere with the "Y"?

Maybe we would be better off having a straight oil run between treatments?




I think the answer for motor oil may be "yes" in some specific instances tho it would take a formulator to explain why. I remember reading a presentation made by an Elf lubrication engineer some years ago and the guy practically became unhinged when talking about the use by car owners of aftermarket additives in motor oil - - how it could completely upset the chemical balance of base stocks and additives that the formulator had worked so hard to achieve. Then again, he was French. You know, like a great French chef ranting about Americans slobbering their Coquille St Jaques or Magret de Canard with a big dollop of ketchup.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: Gebo

Is it possible that in using different products in succession, we are actually hurting ourselves as some products may actually hurt the effectiveness of another product? Le't say we are using "X" on one OCI and then following with "Y" on the next OCI. Could the residual "X" left in the engine interfere with the "Y"?

Maybe we would be better off having a straight oil run between treatments?


It is possible that by using different products you can cause issues. Many of these products use competing chemistries to obtain the desired results and sometimes residue can change the effectiveness. For example film forming additives can prevent or interfere with solid lubricants like MoS2. It is also true that different additives respond differently to different oils.

A company I am familiar with recently found that when using a pour point depressant (to improve cold flow) with hydraulic oils required different treat ratios to obtain the desired results - in one oil it took a little, in another it took almost twice as much.

In order to achieve the desired results with any additive (assuming that they actually are designed to do something and aren't just a money grab scheme). You can't just take one OCI and say that you can see the difference. Hopping around from one product to another to another IMO will definitely provide little benefit because you can't do a fair comparison.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: m6pwr
I remember reading a presentation made by an Elf lubrication engineer some years ago and the guy practically became unhinged when talking about the use by car owners of aftermarket additives in motor oil - - how it could completely upset the chemical balance of base stocks and additives that the formulator had worked so hard to achieve. Then again, he was French. You know, like a great French chef ranting about Americans slobbering their Coquille St Jaques or Magret de Canard with a big dollop of ketchup.


^^^That is funny!!

 

[TC]

"Is it possible that in using different products in succession..."

If in SUCCESSION, I'd say no. I've never heard any evidence that using Valvoline High-Mileage oil after using a cycle of Pennzoil Platinum was of any significance, to name two random products. Same if you use Seafoam a month after going through a tankful treated with Gumout Regane. But if you MIX more than one product, I suppose there's the possibility that an "additive clash" could occur. Even then I 'd suspect the outcome would simply be that the mixed products would simply work less effectively than normal, rather than go Three Mile Island inside your engine. Chevron has warned against mixing different brands of motor oils in the past, although Shell doesn’t seem to think that a problem. STP states that “STP products are completely compatible with all other standard fuel and lubricant additives that are intended for similar use. However, mixing fuel or lubricant additives is neither recommended nor should it be necessary.” And yes, I suspect the French do hate us for our ketchup.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_you_mix_motor_oil_viscosities
http://www.stp.com/faqs/general/

 

[Mystic]

I agree that it probably is not a great idea using two or more oil supplements at the same time. They might conflict with each other. But I have never understood some of these people who talk about how a chemical balance in motor oil can be upset by other stuff getting into the oil. Stuff does get into the oil!

Very small metal fragments, unburned fuel, dirt, water, etc. gets into the fuel. They better allow for stuff like that, because that kind of stuff will get into the oil. If the car or truck is driven far enough and the engine gets warmed up enough, the water will get burned off. But dirt will build up, and there can be unburned fuel (not as much as in the carb days) and tiny metal filings in the oil. The oil has to be changed eventually because of the build up of dirt and the consumption of chemical additives. So the chemical balance of the oil will be affected eventually.

So yes, an oil supplement can affect the chemical balance of the oil. But if the oil supplement is halfway decent I doubt it would be more serious than dirt in the oil, unburned fuel, or tiny metal particles. If anybody thinks the oil is going to be unchanged throughout the entire oil change, they are badly mistaken. During use oil additives get used up and the oil eventually has to be changed because of additive depletion and comtamination of the oil. If an engine oil is merely exposed to the air long enough there will be oxidation of the oil.

You would have to run an engine in a super clean room environment to keep the oil as pure as possible throughout the oil change. And even then there would be some contamination.

So the image of the chemical engineer getting all upset over alteration of the chemical balance of the motor oil sort of makes me laugh. During use the chemcial balance of the oil will change anyway. Nobody needs to add any oil supplement for that to happen. Talking about a motor oil being like a fine wine throughout the oil change is silly. By the time the oil gets changed it has become dirty.

 

[dailydriver]

^^^Which is EXACTLY why I think it is perfectly OK to use a GOOD addpack replenishing/strengthening additive (LG BioTech, Torco SEP, L.A.T. LFR, etc.) near the middle-end of an OCI, even when using some of the BEST oils on the planet, and even while incurring the disapproval/ridicule of many on here.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
They might conflict with each other. But I have never understood some of these people who talk about how a chemical balance in motor oil can be upset by other stuff getting into the oil. Stuff does get into the oil!



I am not sure what you mean by chemical imbalance, and the comparison to blow-by gasses and wear metal intrusion to OTC additives is comparing apples and oranges.

There CAN be a potential additive "clash" for example when a OTC additive has too much detergency or dispersency such that it prevents the anti-wear additive from forming a ferrous complex film on the bearing surfaces.

Or, if a moly additive is added that contains the wrong type of moly compound. For example, a moly phosphordithioate is NOT compatible with internal combustion engines but it IS suitable for hydraulic oils. For IC engines, the MolyDTC is preferred and has been tested extensivly in labs and fleets.

So my question to you is, what TYPE of compound is being mixed into the oil carrier of your favorite OTC or third party additive?

Do you have the chemical and tribological training to determine the resulting chemical makeup and wear effects this may potentially cause?

Do I lose sleep over it. No way. It is your money and your mochine so you do what you will and believe every claim made by the OTC witchdoctor consortium.

 

[MolaKule]

ADDITIVE COMPETITION regarding Friction Modifiers:

Other polar additives with affinity to metal surfaces, such as AW/EP and anticorrosion additives, as well as detergents and dispersants, may compete with FMs.

This emphasizes that lubricant formulations have to be balanced carefully to achieve optimal performance.

 

[BrianWC]

Yeah...I've often wondered about arx and say a high zddp oil...How effectively do arx's esters compete for surface w/ these and other compounds?

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
I've often wondered about arx and say a high zddp oil...How effectively do arx's esters compete for surface w/ these and other compounds?


Research seems to indicate that esters, being polar, actually helps brings the AW additives to the surface.

What I said was,

Quote:
Other polar additives with affinity to metal surfaces, such as AW/EP and anticorrosion additives, as well as detergents and dispersants, may compete with FMs.



these additives listed may compete with FM's, not AW additives such as ZDDP. But the triad of esters in ARX also act as FM's. I.E., it seems that while cleaning, these esters ALSO help bring the AW additives to the surface AND act as FM's.

Rick may have additional information.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Great way of putting it. I have a few questions, if I may.

Is it true; based on amount and type perhaps, that molybdenum is both a FM and anti-wear additive? Also, is there a difference between adding powdered MoS2 and a product composed of such(like the one by Lubro/Liqui Moly) in that such an additive may harm softer metals in the engine in large enough amounts?

Thank you.

 

[Mystic]

I personally would not use the overwhelmingly majority of these various oil supplements. But there is a big difference between using one of the few quality oil supplements, like Lubegard products, and an average low quality oil supplement. The main guy behind the Lubegard products had been involved in motor oil formulation and there was even a positive VOA of a Lubegard product here. And in the case of Lubegard automatic transmission supplements there was a time I remember when three auto manufacturers approved the use of those automatic transmission supplements.

Now nobody has to use oil supplements of any kind. If you buy a car or truck with a quality built engine you should be able to drive a long time just using good quality motor oil. But some supplements may become useful in some situations such as a very high mileage engine that needs to be cleaned up internally. I personally still have a high regard for Lubegard products even though I am not using any right now. I still like Gumout fuel system cleaner. And I still like a few other products, although not very many.

One thing I can't stand however is somebody talking about a motor oil like as if it is some kind of very high quality French wine. The best quality motor oil there is will experience chemical changes (additive depletion) and contamination and oxidation during use. The chemical additives are just as important as the motor oil. The chemical additives can get used up in use. And I think most motor oils are developed with cost considerations very much in the minds of the developers. They are always trying to find cheaper additives that can do the same job. Have we not seen a decline of moly in a lot of motor oils? Perhaps the cheaper replacement additives are just as good as moly and maybe they are not.

Now the overwhelming majority of these oil supplements are probably not very good. If you want better quality probably the best thing is to buy a better quality, more expensive motor oil. But that does not change the fact that there are a few quality oil supplements. I do think there are a few quality oil supplements although you will have to do research to find out which ones are good. Or make it simple and use Mobil 1 instead of the cheap brand of motor oil you buy on sale. You are probably safe with the Mobil 1 or the Pennzoil Ultimate.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Is it true; based on amount and type perhaps, that molybdenum is both a FM and anti-wear additive?

Yes I think this is a fair way of looking at it. Especially based on AMOUNT and TYPE - but also the effects of other oil components on the molybdenum containing molecules. (in some cases molybdenum containing components react directly on metal surfaces which competes with other anti wear components. In other cases they form a layer directly on top of other anti wear additives, working together to improve friction reduction.)

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim

Also, is there a difference between adding powdered MoS2 and a product composed of such(like the one by Lubro/Liqui Moly) in that such an additive may harm softer metals in the engine in large enough amounts?

IMO this comes down to a level of effectiveness. Molybdenum containing additives have a tendency to experience oxidative dehydration which essentially "dries out" the active moly and reduces its ability to form effective lubricating films. This issue can be overcome with the introduction of antioxidants and other synergistic components into the mix. So just adding in some kind of powder would likely be less effective than a properly designed formula that takes these things into consideration.

In order for an effective OTS additive to work the people behind it must understand how to formulate a complete package to provide the desired results with most current oil technologies. The people using them need to understand that the oil you mix it in as well as the operating conditions of the vehicle or equipment can all effect the final results.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Is it true; based on amount and type perhaps, that molybdenum is both a FM and anti-wear additive? Also, is there a difference between adding powdered MoS2 and a product composed of such(like the one by Lubro/Liqui Moly) in that such an additive may harm softer metals in the engine in large enough amounts?



Again, there are about three types of moly: moly powders for greases in powder form (MoS2 powder), a moly phosphordithioate (MoPDT), and a Moly ditiocarbamate or MoDTC as we call it.

The MoDTC is used in IC engine oils as a FM, and in Gear oils as a secondary EP additive and an FM.

Still, the primary EP additive in gear oils is still the buffered Sulfur-phosphorous combo. Another secondary additive that may be added, in addition to MoDTC, is the potassium-triborate combo.

MoPDT is used mainly in hydraulic oils.

MoDTC has been shown to be synergistic with ZDDP.

As I asked in the question above, do you know which moly is being incorprated in your OTC engine oil additives? Hopefully, it is the soluble DTC type moly, but we don't know for sure.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
They are always trying to find cheaper additives that can do the same job. Have we not seen a decline of moly in a lot of motor oils? Perhaps the cheaper replacement additives are just as good as moly and maybe they are not.



The only thing I would add is that additives like moly are going up in cost due to the increase in worldwide demand for moly in metal alloys and such.

Sure, if your moly addtive costs go up, you want to find some other additive that is as good or better than that additive because you want to maintain profit margin and stay in business.

And then there are FM's that are non-ash or totally organic which work as well or better than some current metallo-organic additives, but they too are exopensive; again, a balance between costs and profits to stay in business.

So you try and maintin not only an optimized chemical balance, but you also attempt to try and maintain your bottom line to make a buck. Have you ever seen an oil company or blender stay in the market and sell over costs? Or any industry for that matter doing the same?

My complaint is all these people bringing up conspiracy theories about mainstream oil company mfgr's trying to sell you a less than adequately additized oil. This is just plain silly and not the case, and this is what the OTC additive bunch wants you to believe so they can sell their product(s).

 

[Trav]

Quote:
My complaint is all these people bringing up conspiracy theories about mainstream oil company mfgr's trying to sell you a less than adequately additized oil. This is just plain silly and not the case,


Not to beat a dead horse Molakule but you yourself helped to fuel that fire with statements like "oils are blended to a price point".
I don't know how you intended it but a lot of folks took that as the oils are not as good as they could be because they are trying to keep the price down and is in some way lacking.

 

[Solarent]

"Good as they could be" I think is a bit of a misleading interpretation. I could be wrong, but I think Molakule's point is that we should probably put more trust in the oil company's ability to create a properly finished oil that meets or exceeds the requirements of most OEM's rather than second guess all the work and science behind it.

I agree with him that to suggest that an oil is in some way inferior and needs more additives is a poor marketing strategy that many of these companies follow. However I do believe that there are specific cases where additional additives in an oil could provide a benefit such as during extended oil drains or extreme conditions where operators are abusing equipment outside the limits of their design (which well on it's head is not a good idea, the reality is it happens more often than we would like.) In such cases these additional additives would need to be produced by a company who understands these conditions and the lubricants used and then formulates to meet those needs.

I know enough about how oil blenders work to understand that not all blender's products are perfect, but I don't believe that additional additives are needed in every case either. AND unfortunately there are way too many people out there who are making "additives" that are really just a way to make a quick buck - and I can't stand those guys.

 

[Trav]

I believe no one with this stuff, not even the great Carnac himself. All too many people will push and/or endorse anything for the right price or deal.

 

[Solarent]

That's a pretty fair assessment.

On a completely unrelated note - congrats on the win over Greece today - it was a good match. - Unless you aren't following the euro cup in which case just disregard this comment.