First Impressions - 131C SOY Gas Additive

[Spartane]

I'm a new member and this is my first post to the board. I drive a 2003 Toyota ECHO, new on Dec-28-2002, with about 3500kms on it so far.

I just picked up some 131C SOY Fuel Additive and some 131 Neutra tonight, shipped from the Schaeffer rep in BC, via the Loomis shipping depot in Brampton. I proceeded to add about 1/2 a bottle of 131C to the gas tank, and then I filled it up with fuel (the ECHO holds about 45 litres of gas or about 11 US gallons).

Was the effect ever noticable! The car got really smooth and quiet, and the 4-cylinder jitter was mostly gone; it was like I switched the little 1.5 litre engine for a 6-cylinder one. This effect held true for idle, acceleration, and highway driving - the engine was significantly quieter all way around.

So when Schaeffer's says "better than new" performance for the 131C, I'd guess that they're probably right. I have no idea what the fuel economy will be like with this stuff, but I sure do like the way the car runs!

Now all I have to do is figure out an appropriate maintenance dose, since I plan to add it at each fillup. It will be interesting to contrast the effects of the 131C SOY versus the 131 Neutra to see how similar they are to each other. The 131C costs about twice as much, but perhaps I will be able to use about half of it as compared to the 131, for a similar effect.

Anyway, I thought some of you might be interested in hearing about this.

 

[Ken2]

Thanks for the report. Schaeffer's data sheet shows it only available in 5 gallon pails and drums. Did you get a handier size container?


Ken

 

[Bror Jace]

Thanks for posting, Spartane.

I'm with Ken2, I'd love to try this stuff ... but 5 gallons?

--- Bror Jace

 

[cryptokid]

unless somthings wrong, those engines dont have jitter to begin with. you cant even hear them running standing 15 feet behind the car. i would get your car checked out or somthing man.

 

[Patman]

Nice to see another person from Mississauga on here! Sounds like the 131c works very well!

 

[Pablo]

Also

You said distributor in BC

, uh can I have the contact info?

Thanks!

 

[Patman]

Pablo, the Schaeffer rep in BC is Tracy Briggs, I got my last order through him. His email address is

[email protected]

 

[Spartane]

As Pat mentioned, the BC Schaeffer rep is Tracy Briggs - he's in Lantzville BC. Tracy was willing to ship 12 oz bottles (both Neutra and 131C Soy are packaged in the same 12 oz yellow bottle), as many or as few as I wanted.

Assuming that things continue to go well with the 131/131C, I will likely buy the one gallon containers sometime in the future in order to save costs. To facilitate this, I will be saving the empty yellow containers, so that I will have something convenient to refill.

cryptokid:

Not to worry, the ECHO is indeed quiet - what I mean by 4-cylinder jitter is a small vibration from the steering wheel, occuring mostly at idle, with a bit of load on the engine. This load can be the rear window defogger in winter (forcing the alternater to work harder) or the air conditioner in summer, or just sitting with the automatic transmission in drive.

In my case, it was mostly noticable when the automatic transmission was in drive. I've had other 4-cylinder cars (a 2000 Mazda Protege, and a 1995 Hyundai Accent) that all did the same thing to varying degrees - it's nothing serious (other than a bit annoying), just a thing you live with when you drive a 4-cylinder car.

The ECHO has one additional way to load the engine - it ships with a 12 volt electric heater that is integrated into the car and designed to assist the gas heater. I guess Toyota felt that the little 1.5 litre engine just wasn't big enough to kick out enough heat for the cold North American winter. It turns out that this electric heater is turned on automatically when the heater control in the "full on" position. I back the control off a bit once the car has warmed up to eliminate this alternator load. And yes, even with the 131C, I still feel this load as vibration on the steering wheel.

- Spartane

 

[Spartane]

Hi Ken,

Here are some more impressions:

1. Fuel Economy:

I've been checking my fuel economy pretty much all along, and it's ranged from as low as about 7.0 litres/100kms to as high as 6.2 litres/100kms. I've seen the low fuel indicator light will come on anywhere between 540kms - 610kms.

The last two weeks or so have been closer to the 6.2 litres/100kms, 600+km/tank mark for a number of reasons:

a) Generally warmer weather in the Toronto area.
b) Gas likely moving/moved from winter formulation to summer formulation.
c) ECHO has about 8000kms or so now and the break-in process is well under way.
d) I added 5-W-30 Mobil-1 synthetic recently which should help lubricate a bit better.
e) Traffic has been generally a LOT better of late. I travel (95%+ highway driving) across the 401 each day from the Winston Churchill/403 area to the 404/Steeles area during rush-hour and the traffic this winter has been generally DREADFUL (more than one hour in each direction). A tank of gas gives me almost exactly one week of driving.

I'm expecting the mileage to further improve to 5.8 litres/100km and a range of 650kms/tank by mid-summer - and I'm hoping to exceed 700kms/tank for at least a couple of tankfulls.


2. Additives:

a) AutoRx: I continue to use it in a maintenance 3-oz dose. I had some in with the breakin oil and I added some more a few days after I changed to the synthetic. You can really feel the effect when you add it to the oil - the engine smoothes out quite a bit for a few days; unfortunately this smoothing effect does not last.

b) Neutra 131 and Soy 131C: I continue to add one of these to the fuel on a regular basis with each fillup. Mostly (so far) I've been using the Neutra; but sometimes I add the Soy. The effect seems similar with both (smoother running engine); I've decided the correct dose for the Neutra is 1/2 bottle (6-oz) per fillup, subjectively based on the feel of the engine. I've tried 3-oz and 4-oz doses, but I currently believe that 6-oz is better. I haven't used the Soy additive enough to say what the correct dose is with it, but it's my feeling that 2-ozs is not enough. Since the Soy is twice as expensive (~$8.00 Cdn/12-oz bottle versus ~$4.00 Cdn/12-oz for the Neutra) in order to break even you need to be able to be able to at least cut the dose in half with the Soy.

I've used a few gas additives over the last several years - I'll list them in my order of preference:

- Neutra 131/Soy 131C
- Duralube
- Marvel Mystery Oil (Canadian Tire carried Marvel up here for a while last year)
- Amsoil PI

So far it's my feeling that the Neutra/Soy gas additive might be the best of them all (although the Jury is still out

).

It's probably been about three years since I last used Amsoil PI but it was my feeling at the time that the Duralube cleaner was notably better. Although Marvel performed really well in my Mazda Protege (even my kid noticed the improvement), I became nervous about using it when I heard that it can cause ashing on your fuel injectors and possibly fouling of your spark plugs. And since Canadian Tire no longer sells it, it's now become difficult to get, so it was time to move on.

I've heard some really good things posted on this board about Fuel Power, but I haven't yet taken the time to contact Odis Beaver to find out if he ships to Canada. Also, I read a post a few weeks back about a fellow who added Lube Control to an empty Amsoil PI bottle (for convenient transport), and found that it nearly melted through the bottle's plastic, so I guess I'm a bit nervous about using it now.

I plan to do one more thing - I have some Schaeffer's 132 coming - it should arrive next week. I plan to add about 3 - 4 ozs of it to the oil to see what effect it will have.

The most immediately noticable effect from using these additives is a smoother running engine. Hopefully, they will also result in longer engine life, but that won't be known for a few years yet.

- Spartane

 

[kpacam]

Spartane,

Thanks for the update. I haven't done anything to my echo except drive it.

I've been keeping track of my mileage.

My mileage has ranged from 5.4 litres/100kms to 6.8 litres/100kms.

I'm only on my 5th tank of gas, but there's been a recent slight worsening of fuel economy and the oil on the dipstick is getting darker (it was absolutely clear when new). Maybe I should get the oil changed now? When did you do your first change?

I'm thinking of using auto-rx to keep oil sludge down. Is there a Toronto-area supplier? I'm disappointed to learn that the smoothing effect is only temporary.

That reminds me of an oil additive called energy release that I've tried in my old Saturn. It WORKED! It would lower the coolant temp, quieten valves, very noticably improve mileage etc but only for a tank or two of gas. I'm generally suspicious of these things, but my old Saturn ran HOT and ER really worked (for a while).

I've searched this forum and there's no mention of energy release. Has anyone looked into this one?

I could certainly use some smoothing of the engine. I find the echo's engine a little rougher than I'd like at idle and it's a little tricky to get started in first gear.

Ken

[ April 24, 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: joee12 ]

 

[kpacam]

Spartane,

Have you done any fuel economy calculations yet?

Have you noticed any other changes?

I've had my echo for a little over a month and I'm interested in knowing how those additives are working for you.

Thanks,

Ken

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spartane:

a) Generally warmer weather in the Toronto area.

---

You're kidding right? It was brutally cold yesterday, and it's been way below normal on average for the last month. Sure we had that one day of 28 celcius (82F) and a couple of days of close to 20 degrees (68F) but overall it has been much colder, especially in the mornings when it's been below 0C (32F) so much. My UOA is going to suffer a bit more now, I was hoping that with me changing the oil on April 12th that this batch of oil would not see temps below 5C (40F) at all, but it's seen far too many morning starts with temps below that.

Or when you said generally warmer weather, did you mean compared to the rest of the winter, where it was below 0F so much?

So that this post isn't totally off topic, I will add that I'm noticing better gas mileage in my Firebird since I started using Neutra 131 (not the C, just the regular 131) On weeks where I don't get stuck in brutal traffic, I've been getting closer to 19.5 to 19.7 MPG now, last summer even in warm weather I was only getting about 18.5 to 19. Once this cold snap finally goes away, who knows, I might just see a tick over 20MPG average. Same driving habits and route too.

[ April 24, 2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[Ken2]

What dosage of Neutra works for continuing gas treatment?...I know 1 oz./gallon for system cleaning (8 ml/litre

)

Ken

 

[Patman]

Ken, I believe most people end up going with about 1oz of Neutra for every 5-10 gallons as a maintenance dose. I usually get gas twice per week, adding anywhere from 7-9 gallons each time, so I add an ounce each time I fill up. Hopefully this works out to be a good dose for me.

 

[rugerman1]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken2:
What dosage of Neutra works for continuing gas treatment?...I know 1 oz./gallon for system cleaning (8 ml/litre

)

Ken

---

According to Schaeffers' web-site:
Neutra #131
TREATMENT LEVEL

For gasoline: Add 2 to 3 quarts of Neutra to every 100 gallons. (.64 to.96 oz/gal)
For diesel fuel: Add ½ to 1 gallon of Neutra to every 100 gallons of fuel.(.64 to1.3 oz/gal)
#131C SOY ULTRA GASOLINE FUEL ADDITIVE
Treatment Ratio:

Keep Clean Performance – One gallon of Gasoline Fuel Additive to 1500 Gallons of Gasoline(.1 oz/gal)
Clean-Up Performance - One gallon of Gasoline Fuel Additive to 300 Gallons of Gasoline(.5 oz/gal)
1-Tank Clean-Up - One gallon of Gasoline Fuel Additive to 150 Gallons of Gasoline(.9 oz/gal)

Mark

[ April 24, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[Spartane]

kpacam:

Boy - you're really getting excellent mileage - I guess you're running a manual transmission. I'm a bit surprised that your mileage is going down, though. As the weather warms up and the engine breaks in, I'd expect it to go up. Perhaps you're driving a bit harder as the engine breaks in?

As far as the oil getting darker is concerned - that's pretty normal, I wouldn't worry much about it. I changed my oil at 6000 kms; this decision is debatable as some manufacturers apparently provide a special breakin oil while others do not. Some people emphatically recommend you get the breakin oil out after the first 1500 kms or so - regardless. Pick your poison

.

I've tried a number of oil additives over the years including Slick 50, Duralube, TufOil, and possibly others. I've found that they ALL reduce friction and provide a smoother running engine - particularly as an engine ages and carbons up. At the time it felt reasonable to assume that if an engine ran smoother, the oil was doing a better job protecting the engine. It wasn't until I came to this site that I realized that, on a scale of 1 to 10, the number-1 primary job of the oil is to prevent metal-metal contact, and the number-7 (seven) job is to reduce friction - in that order and priority. So it doesn't follow that friction from oil will be minimal; and this is even more apparent when you take the oil manufacturer's costs into account - he has to keep his costs to a minimum in order to compete.

It's been shown that Slick 50 and Duralube both have significant side effects. A friend of mine added some Slick 50 to his 280Z and it completely clogged his oil screen. Others, such as Duralube, I believe, are chlorine-based which apparently can have catastropic consequences when/if water gets into the oil.

So the trick is to get reduced friction but avoid any serious side effects.

That's where this board is so useful, since many of the people here do oil analysis and they'll find out pretty quickly if there are any issues. Others are chemists and can advise from a theoretical perspective what they like and what they don't like. This is VERY GOOD!

In my mind there is NO QUESTION that the Neutra 131 will smooth your ECHO's engine - I know it will from my own experience. I don't think that 1 or 2 ounces per 10 gallons is enough, based on my subjective interpretation, but even at 6-ozs/10 gallons, it only increases your cost by about $2.00 Cdn per fillup - roughly equivalent to going from 87 octane to 89 octane gas, but with a much better benefit.

Alas, you can't buy any of this stuff locally. I'd love to be able to pop over to a Schaeffer's store in the Toronto area and buy whatever I want whenever I want. Unfortunately, such is not to be

...

Pat:

After the cold winter we've had up here this year, just about anything would seem warmer - and you noted (correctly) that I did qualify my response with the word "generally"

.

- Spartane

 

[Patman]

It's nice to see that we may have finally got rid of the cold winter weather, the forecast looks good here for the next week, and it can't possibly snow in May, can it?

 

[twb]

Snow in May? I live right across the lake from you Patman, and about 10 years ago we had 10 inches of snow fall on May 6!

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by twb:
Snow in May? I live right across the lake from you Patman, and about 10 years ago we had 10 inches of snow fall on May 6!

---

Yikes! That darn lake effect! The most snow I ever remember getting late in the season was about a foot of snow on April 15th. This was in the very early 80s. I don't ever recall anything more than very light flurries in May. But this year has been so wacky I wouldn't be surprised at snow in June. Seriously.