Cooper CS4 or Michelin Primacy MXV4

[CharBaby]

Again, CR Mag is a guideline for consumers to follow, it's not gospil. Although I have 2 of the top 3 tires listed in "that particular" CR tire rating. The Hankook Optimo H727('06 Mazda3) and the Pirelli P4('04 Altima 2.5 S). Our '01 Lexus RX-300 is using the G/Y ACT's which are not on that CR List

I really love the P4's on my Altima(205-65-16). Wish I would have gotten the 225-60-16 instead!

I could go on and on about these P4 tires and how they work on my particular Altima and how I drive. I use'em only in the winter on the OE steel wheels...What winter?

I bought the P4s based on TireRack's consumer reviews for A/S tires for snow/ice use. CR Mag show completely different. They're great in the snow/ice. This is my 4th winter; if you can call this year a winter. But, in the past 3 winters, they were great in all types of deep snow and slush and ice. Wonderful!

I don't notice any loss in MPG compared with the OE Continentals and as again, CR show "High Rolling Resisitance" and only so-so "Tread Life. Haaaaaa! I love these Pirelli P4 tires! And I have not yet had to have them rebalanced! And also, I love this particular Altima.

I could write a long review on these tires and all of the pro's(many) and con's(few)

I know, each case is different!

 

[mechanicx]

That's a perfect example of why you can't believe what you read. Sometimes the reviews and surveys are so far off from reality that one tire gets rated at number 1 and is no better or not as good as a middle or even bottom rated tire.

With inaccuracies like that it's almost worthless. And the fact is you need reviews. For example, you had a good experience with Pirelli. My experience with a couple models of Pirellis I've owned were they were good in dry but had no traction in the snow and were not durable and developed shimmy and extreme noise. So I would not go with them unless a credible review proved otherwise. The problem is the reviews don't see very credible. Tires get over or underrated and misrated and you don't know what to believe.

 

[CharBaby]

I think that the P4 was supposed to give Pirelli a boost, as was the Comfort Tread for G/Y, the H727 for Hankook, the Altimax line for General and the CS4 for Cooper etc. and on & on!

This is my first Pirelli and I can't say there was any reason in the past for me to buy Pirelli or to buy another Pirelli model #.

I like to stay with the higher rated tires according to customer reviws and tire tests. The tires that I buy DON'T have to be #1 Rated, just very good and has to fit my criteria of driving style, proper for the climate in which I live, come in my size(s), competitively priced etc.

With the internet, I am not as the mercey of the tire store sales rep who doesn't know me and what I really need/want

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
That CR test is a little old from '09. Do they have a more recent test?


They will, this year. They have a 3-year tire testing rotation. One year is passenger all-season tires (like this test, from 2009). Then the next year is ultra high performance tires (in 2010). Then the next year is light truck and SUV tires (in 2011). Now in 2012 the rotation repeats. They're testing passenger all-season tires now, and will report in October/November.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I can't make much sense of CR's scoring. It seems they rank tires that have as many or more black circles, clear circles etc higher than another tire that even costs less. And if they are to be believed, what do the circles really mean. Of course "better and "less better" but what is the criteria and the difference? It seems kind of arbitrary and vague.


They don't disclose the actual numbers, and get highly criticized for that on their web forums. For example, relevant to this thread, the Primacy MXV4 had "very good" handling while the CS4 Touring had "good" handling. How much of a difference that represents, we don't know. All we know is the Michelin handled "better" than the Coopers.

They are, however, improving on this. On some of their tire blogs, they have started posting what the "spread" of some of these tests are. For example, the best and worst of the dry stopping distances. I'd like to see them do more though.

Their scoring is also weighted toward safety-related items. For example, the Falken Ziex ZE912 got a number of black dots, yet scores higher than the Kumho Solus KH16, which is a few spots below it; the Kumho didn't get ANY black dots. But the Kumho didn't stand out in any areas either, and appeared to have average handling for the class. The Falken scored excellent in all of the handling tests, likely making it one of the best choices for safety-minded tire purchases.

In my opinion, the best way to look at CR's data is just like how you'd look at data from Tire Rack or any other resource. Look at the metrics that are most important to you and try to get information from multiple resources. No single resource should be used as THE GOSPEL on that particular product.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
The circles are a convenient and accepted way for CU to interject their opinions over the empirical survey data.


These are not surveys. These are tire tests done in-house by their tire engineers at their test track.

 

[leeharvey418]

Depending on what aspect of tire 'goodness' they're talking about, yes, the survey results do go into the 'computation' of a circle.

Still, say they're comparing two tires - tire A has the best lateral grip in the group they're testing but it is given to abrupt transition to oversteer. Tire B has marginally less grip but it has a nice, predictable transition. See why they'd give tire B the red circle but tire A might only get a half circle?

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
Depending on what aspect of tire 'goodness' they're talking about, yes, the survey results do go into the 'computation' of a circle.


I'm not familiar with any tire surveys. They are considering in the future incorporating user reviews of brand reliability, etc, but this is not yet implemented.

Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
Still, say they're comparing two tires - tire A has the best lateral grip in the group they're testing but it is given to abrupt transition to oversteer. Tire B has marginally less grip but it has a nice, predictable transition. See why they'd give tire B the red circle but tire A might only get a half circle?


In this situation, both tires might get a red circle. The circles represent ranges in the data (for objective metrics, but not all metrics are objective ones!). Say the high and low lateral grip for the entire group is 0.90g and 0.78g. Tire A might score a 0.89 and Tire B might score a 0.88. In this case, the red circle may represent all scores from 0.87 to 0.90. So both tires would get the same circle, even though they have slightly different performance. Or, say Tire A scores a 0.90, Tire B scores a 0.87, and Tire C scores a 0.86. Tires A and B would both get red circles and Tire C would get a half red circle. The reader would conclude that Tires A and B perform the same, when in reality, Tire A performs much better than B, and it's actually Tires B and C that perform almost identically. Those are the big issues I have with the colored circles. They give you a relative idea of which tires perform better than others, and to be fair, for most of CR's readers, that's probably as much technical information that can be accurately absorbed.

Incidentally, there isn't a metric only for lateral grip, but there is one for "handling". I don't think the handling category is an objective one...this is the description from their website:

"Handling includes how well the tires gripped in an avoidance maneuver involving a swerve into the left lane and back into the right lane; dry and wet cornering grip; and subjective steering feel."

 

[KrisZ]

I mentioned earlier that Coopers on my Mazda 3 feel softer than my previous OEM Toyos. Well, that was confirmed yesterday when I was re-bedding my brakes.

I did several high speed braking events, going from about 70mph to 10mph. This is a secondary road with only one lane in one direction. It is hardly used at night (that's why it's my favorite choice for this kind of thing), but it is not very smooth. Anyway, during very hard braking, with the tires at the edge of locking up, the front end wondered quite a bit, something that never happened on Toyo tires.

I like these tires but they're too soft for my liking and I don't think Cooper will be my tire of choice next time around.

 

[CharBaby]

Ye see Kris,

now that would be just about perfect for my driving style, He-he-he!

Just kind'a relaxed! Trying to get decent MPG and letting the tire absorb the bumps in the road

 

[The Critic]

The Primacy MXV4s on my Prius have about 12k on them, and are now down to 8/32" on all 4 corners. This is not bad at all, as it looks like I will get 30k out of them before reaching 4/32". I do drive the car fairly hard and take corners hard without braking, so a shortened tire life is expected for my conditions.

The good news is that in the last 1-2k, my fuel economy has gone up about 10%, most likely due to the tire wear. It is almost back to being as good as the original LRR tires.

 

[Joe72Mart]

Tire Recall links:

http://www.arfc.org/tires/cooper/recalls.aspx

http://www.arfc.org/tires/michelin/recalls.aspx

Notice a trend here?

Joe

 

[D.K.]

No. What is your point? Are you trying to say that Cooper is the only tire company that has to recall.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: D.K.
No. What is your point? Are you trying to say that Cooper is the only tire company that has to recall.


6 recalls versus 150+ and you don't see a tend? Um...ok....

 

[D.K.]

Again, we are talking about CS4 on this thread. Cooper had to recall 1600 of these tires in 2008 when they first started making them. That is not a "TREND".

Dave

 

[tgferg67]

I have a set of CS4's on a Pontiac Vibe that I bought used.
They ride nice and according to receipts the CS4's have 62k miles on them - they have 4 to 5/32 left. And these tires were put on the Vibe when it was already "loose" with 91k. They perform/rated good in the snow. Most of the tires that have a lower rolling resistance like the MXV4 would not be good enough in the snow and I would have to buy snow tires/rims.

I just ordered another set of CS4's as Discount Tire Direct on Ebay has $100 off a set at this time.

 

[cchase]

Picked up the Primacy MXV4's last week and had them installed. The drive home (120 miles) was in the rain. The tires worked great. So far noticing about 0.5 to 1 mpg decrease compared to the previous tires, but traction (wet and dry), road noise, compliance over bumps are all far superior.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: cchase
Picked up the Primacy MXV4's last week and had them installed. The drive home (120 miles) was in the rain. The tires worked great. So far noticing about 0.5 to 1 mpg decrease compared to the previous tires, but traction (wet and dry), road noise, compliance over bumps are all far superior.


If you replaced worn out tires the decreased observed mpg would fall in line with the increased distance traveled due to the larger tire (full tread vs worn out)

translation: you are going 1% farther per revolution of the tire so you fuel economy "appears" to go down