Harbor Freight Tools

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Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Again, veteran status should never have been part of anyone's commentary, as it is entirely irrelevant. Being on a disabled veteran pension is no different than a non-vet being on disability, is no different than someone with a job, is no different than someone in the "1%". It all does the same damage, and people all make their decisions, right or wrong, regardless of status of any sort.


The Veteran status and being disabled has everything to do with the points I was attempting to make. It has to do with MONEY and how much is available to spend.

Get it MONEY and how much is available to spend.

That was the whole point.

I made bunches more while working but not so much now on disability. Its called lack of funds.

How in the heck can any one make it any clearer.

I know you missed it because if you would CAREFULLY read my posts it would be somewhat clear. Its a case of having a tool that does the job at a price point I can afford or doing completely without.

Vets getting a pension are far from the upper class that you seem to think they should be in.

Go to the VA Hospital and see for yourself.

Your attitude is unbelievable!


I'll add this, I'm not complaining, actually I feel Blessed for what I have and what I get.
 
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Again, veteran status should never have been part of anyone's commentary, as it is entirely irrelevant. Being on a disabled veteran pension is no different than a non-vet being on disability, is no different than someone with a job, is no different than someone in the "1%". It all does the same damage, and people all make their decisions, right or wrong, regardless of status of any sort.


The Veteran status and being disabled has everything to do with the points I was attempting to make. It has to do with MONEY and how much is available to spend.

Get it MONEY and how much is available to spend.

That was the whole point.

I made bunches more while working but not so much now on disability. Its called lack of funds.

How in the heck can any one make it any clearer.

I know you missed it because if you would CAREFULLY read my posts it would be somewhat clear. Its a case of having a tool that does the job at a price point I can afford or doing completely without.

Vets getting a pension are far from the upper class that you seem to think they should be in.

Go to the VA Hospital and see for yourself.

Your attitude is unbelievable!


Maybe if you would read and understand the intent of my posts, there would be no issue. This is absolutely unbelieveable.

Yes, you made your point. You cant seem to afford tools better than HF because of your pension, gun costs and whatever else. OK, fine, got it.

However, my point, as it has always been, is that no matter who is doing the acquisition of Chinese stuff, it is robbing US jobs.

Im nt talking to you anymore. We got to the bottom of your and my volley. Remember, the 3x saying that you do not care about US jobs versus buying what you want and makes the most sense to you? I thought we were done there.

It has gone onward though in discussion, if you notice, and the point needs to be clarified again and again. It really is amazing.

So let's clarify one more time for you.

This isnt about you, jcwit, and saying that intends no disrespect, it is just that you are caught in the discussion because of your purchasing preference - even if necessary because of your financial position. But one more time for good measure, it is not about you.

It is about all of us, myself included, who buy Chinese goods. Plenty of comments on here, not even mine, indicate the concerns with Chinese stuff, and discuss it all sorts of ways.

But the point is, and the point of my post that you quoted was, that it isnt about who is buying the stuff, veteran or hippie draft dodger, 1% er or the last of the 99%, of any race, gender, occupation, etc., its just irrelevant. The point holds the same no matter what - Chinese stuff errodes the US manufacturing, jobs, and thus taxpayer base. Unfortunately the damage is blind to who is doing the buying, offshored jobs dont care whether the purchases of Chinese goods are made by people who do not have the means to do otherwise, or if they are made by people who are rich and looking for a deal. The damage is inflicted regardless.

Re-read my posts. The only reason I brought up your pension was because of the point that errosion of the taxpayer base along with massive debt might someday make your pension go away. Besides that, your decision is irrelevant to the discussion, because you are only one out of hundreds of millions doing identically the same thing.

Hope that makes sense. And hopefully instead of being disrespectful to me and commenting on what you perceive as my misreading of your posts, you will read this one a few times and see where my beef and my concerns lie.

Ill close out this post this way - I fear that with the debt, all the chinese stuff, all the unemployment, and all the austerity that is going to have to hit this country, that you may actually see your pension reduced or taken away. I sure as anything hope this isnt the case, but I can see it coming. And I fear for that, let alone my own pension or approach at retirement a few decades out.

All the best to you, jcwit, and thanks again for your service. I hope you see now that there was never an attack on the honour of your service or a disrespect on the injuries that it must have inflicted from combat that caused you the need for a disabled veteran's pension. It was truly a cross between the fear of job loss to the Chinese and ability of the rest of the working folks to pay the taxes to fund the pensions, so they arent paid out by having the Chinese buy more of our debt or any such thing.
 
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But that's been my point. If a store shelf had a higher quality American product and next to it a similar but lower quality chinese product even a few cents less, most consumers would grab the the chinese product. Because after all it "looks" the same and who cares where and who made it. The chinese product is not a better value for various reasons. You seem to consider this a good thing and like most consumers don't care about quality or American jobs and economic loss. I do not think its A-ok. That's where I differ from you.


You seem to be lacking in 3 basic skills that are usually taught in elementary school. 1. reading 2. comprehension 3. memory. Either that or you are so closed minded and stubburn to even attempt to understand someone elses view point.

Please read the following CAREFULLY You MIGHT see what you've been missing while skimming over posts which you wish to argue about. These are taken from my previous posts and are a copy and paste.

Here you go, REMEMBER, READ CAREFULLY


There may be no excuse for the price difference but in reality its there, like it or not. Check out the price difference between a Plumb 16 oz hammer "made in china" and a 16 oz. chinese no name hammer from H/F, Menards, or other outlet. Menards sold 16 oz chinese hammers a few weeks ago for $1.99 IIRC. Point made?

Now regarding if perchance if the prices were close, 20% or less as stated there would be a whole different picture, and yes I would go for the U.S. made tool.

Another case in point, I do a lot of reloading, I have reloaded for the past 50 years. I have every color of reloading equipment on my bench from Lee to Sinclair, some purchased new and some used. I now lean towards Lee simply pecause of price point and really the quality is very good, maybe not the prettiest but overall excellent quality. And again made in the U.S.A. Do I buy Smart Reloader or even recommend it, NO, ABSOLUTLY NOT, there prices are in the same ball park so there is no advantage at all to buy their products. For those of you not familiar with Smart Reloader it an imported product from an Italian company thats manufactured in china.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you get this now? Actually I doubt it, but hey I tried, more than I can say for a few others.



LOL that is hilarious coming from you. I have reading, comprehension, memory issue and am closed-minded? You must be talking about yourself. I've already discussed your previous replies and this topic 9 ways till Sunday. Yet you just disregard everything said, change the argument and keep repeating yourself and going in circles. You don't seem to pick up what is implied or what you imply as well.

No matter what anyone says to you your argument eventually resorts to "I'm on a pension and can only afford a $2 hammer (but can afford a $150 reloader) that I'm never going to use, don't care about quality (or that it's an import), I already have my father's quality hammer, HF tools don't break etc."

I got it the first time and the 2nd etc. You're right, we must have $2 chinese hammers. There's no other possible or acceptable alternative or better solution
smirk.gif
. The $2 chinese hammer trumps all.
 
... and mechanicx, apparently it is OK to be disrespectful to you... Look at that commentary in there... Ouch!
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Again, veteran status should never have been part of anyone's commentary, as it is entirely irrelevant. Being on a disabled veteran pension is no different than a non-vet being on disability, is no different than someone with a job, is no different than someone in the "1%". It all does the same damage, and people all make their decisions, right or wrong, regardless of status of any sort.


The Veteran status and being disabled has everything to do with the points I was attempting to make. It has to do with MONEY and how much is available to spend.

Get it MONEY and how much is available to spend.

That was the whole point.

I made bunches more while working but not so much now on disability. Its called lack of funds.

How in the heck can any one make it any clearer.

I know you missed it because if you would CAREFULLY read my posts it would be somewhat clear. Its a case of having a tool that does the job at a price point I can afford or doing completely without.

Vets getting a pension are far from the upper class that you seem to think they should be in.

Go to the VA Hospital and see for yourself.

Your attitude is unbelievable!


Maybe if you would read and understand the intent of my posts, there would be no issue. This is absolutely unbelieveable.

Yes, you made your point. You cant seem to afford tools better than HF because of your pension, gun costs and whatever else. OK, fine, got it.

However, my point, as it has always been, is that no matter who is doing the acquisition of Chinese stuff, it is robbing US jobs.

Im nt talking to you anymore. We got to the bottom of your and my volley. Remember, the 3x saying that you do not care about US jobs versus buying what you want and makes the most sense to you? I thought we were done there.

It has gone onward though in discussion, if you notice, and the point needs to be clarified again and again. It really is amazing.

So let's clarify one more time for you.

This isnt about you, jcwit, and saying that intends no disrespect, it is just that you are caught in the discussion because of your purchasing preference - even if necessary because of your financial position. But one more time for good measure, it is not about you.

It is about all of us, myself included, who buy Chinese goods. Plenty of comments on here, not even mine, indicate the concerns with Chinese stuff, and discuss it all sorts of ways.

But the point is, and the point of my post that you quoted was, that it isnt about who is buying the stuff, veteran or hippie draft dodger, 1% er or the last of the 99%, of any race, gender, occupation, etc., its just irrelevant. The point holds the same no matter what - Chinese stuff errodes the US manufacturing, jobs, and thus taxpayer base. Unfortunately the damage is blind to who is doing the buying, offshored jobs dont care whether the purchases of Chinese goods are made by people who do not have the means to do otherwise, or if they are made by people who are rich and looking for a deal. The damage is inflicted regardless.

Re-read my posts. The only reason I brought up your pension was because of the point that errosion of the taxpayer base along with massive debt might someday make your pension go away. Besides that, your decision is irrelevant to the discussion, because you are only one out of hundreds of millions doing identically the same thing.

Hope that makes sense. And hopefully instead of being disrespectful to me and commenting on what you perceive as my misreading of your posts, you will read this one a few times and see where my beef and my concerns lie.

Ill close out this post this way - I fear that with the debt, all the chinese stuff, all the unemployment, and all the austerity that is going to have to hit this country, that you may actually see your pension reduced or taken away. I sure as anything hope this isnt the case, but I can see it coming. And I fear for that, let alone my own pension or approach at retirement a few decades out.

All the best to you, jcwit, and thanks again for your service. I hope you see now that there was never an attack on the honour of your service or a disrespect on the injuries that it must have inflicted from combat that caused you the need for a disabled veteran's pension. It was truly a cross between the fear of job loss to the Chinese and ability of the rest of the working folks to pay the taxes to fund the pensions, so they arent paid out by having the Chinese buy more of our debt or any such thing.


Exactly, a lot of people are on a budget. Pension aren't normally big but that doesn't mean you have no choice but "the $2 chinese hammer". Some people bought quality tools that will last their lifetime or beyond, paid off their mortage, and could aford a quality American tool but don't need it.

I'm just not buying that anyone HAS to shop at Harbor Freight. For example a huge tool set from Craftsman made in USA at least until very recently if not still is not that much, warrantied forever without a receipt. If funds are really tight there's borrowing, renting and buying used. Everyone wants to get stuff cheap, but that doesn't me they HAVE to or that everything cheap is a good value.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Again, veteran status should never have been part of anyone's commentary, as it is entirely irrelevant. Being on a disabled veteran pension is no different than a non-vet being on disability, is no different than someone with a job, is no different than someone in the "1%". It all does the same damage, and people all make their decisions, right or wrong, regardless of status of any sort.


The Veteran status and being disabled has everything to do with the points I was attempting to make. It has to do with MONEY and how much is available to spend.

Get it MONEY and how much is available to spend.

That was the whole point.

I made bunches more while working but not so much now on disability. Its called lack of funds.

How in the heck can any one make it any clearer.

I know you missed it because if you would CAREFULLY read my posts it would be somewhat clear. Its a case of having a tool that does the job at a price point I can afford or doing completely without.

Vets getting a pension are far from the upper class that you seem to think they should be in.

Go to the VA Hospital and see for yourself.

Your attitude is unbelievable!


Maybe if you would read and understand the intent of my posts, there would be no issue. This is absolutely unbelieveable.

Yes, you made your point. You cant seem to afford tools better than HF because of your pension, gun costs and whatever else. OK, fine, got it.

However, my point, as it has always been, is that no matter who is doing the acquisition of Chinese stuff, it is robbing US jobs.

Im nt talking to you anymore. We got to the bottom of your and my volley. Remember, the 3x saying that you do not care about US jobs versus buying what you want and makes the most sense to you? I thought we were done there.

It has gone onward though in discussion, if you notice, and the point needs to be clarified again and again. It really is amazing.

So let's clarify one more time for you.

This isnt about you, jcwit, and saying that intends no disrespect, it is just that you are caught in the discussion because of your purchasing preference - even if necessary because of your financial position. But one more time for good measure, it is not about you.

It is about all of us, myself included, who buy Chinese goods. Plenty of comments on here, not even mine, indicate the concerns with Chinese stuff, and discuss it all sorts of ways.

But the point is, and the point of my post that you quoted was, that it isnt about who is buying the stuff, veteran or hippie draft dodger, 1% er or the last of the 99%, of any race, gender, occupation, etc., its just irrelevant. The point holds the same no matter what - Chinese stuff errodes the US manufacturing, jobs, and thus taxpayer base. Unfortunately the damage is blind to who is doing the buying, offshored jobs dont care whether the purchases of Chinese goods are made by people who do not have the means to do otherwise, or if they are made by people who are rich and looking for a deal. The damage is inflicted regardless.

Re-read my posts. The only reason I brought up your pension was because of the point that errosion of the taxpayer base along with massive debt might someday make your pension go away. Besides that, your decision is irrelevant to the discussion, because you are only one out of hundreds of millions doing identically the same thing.

Hope that makes sense. And hopefully instead of being disrespectful to me and commenting on what you perceive as my misreading of your posts, you will read this one a few times and see where my beef and my concerns lie.

Ill close out this post this way - I fear that with the debt, all the chinese stuff, all the unemployment, and all the austerity that is going to have to hit this country, that you may actually see your pension reduced or taken away. I sure as anything hope this isnt the case, but I can see it coming. And I fear for that, let alone my own pension or approach at retirement a few decades out.

All the best to you, jcwit, and thanks again for your service. I hope you see now that there was never an attack on the honour of your service or a disrespect on the injuries that it must have inflicted from combat that caused you the need for a disabled veteran's pension. It was truly a cross between the fear of job loss to the Chinese and ability of the rest of the working folks to pay the taxes to fund the pensions, so they arent paid out by having the Chinese buy more of our debt or any such thing.


Exactly, a lot of people are on a budget. Pension aren't normally big but that doesn't mean you have no choice but "the $2 chinese hammer". Some people bought quality tools that will last their lifetime or beyond, paid off their mortage, and could aford a quality American tool but don't need it.

I'm just not buying that anyone HAS to shop at Harbor Freight. For example a huge tool set from Craftsman made in USA at least until very recently if not still is not that much, warrantied forever without a receipt. If funds are really tight there's borrowing, renting and buying used. Everyone wants to get stuff cheap, but that doesn't me they HAVE to or that everything cheap is a good value.


My grandfather was a veteran. He avoided out-sourced products like they were the plague. He's the reason I have so many Snap-On tools.

He had all kinds of inappropriate names for things sourced from other countries. "Colourful" terms was what we liked to call them. He was quite biased as he saw the decay of our manufacturing base from the inside working where he did.

And it wasn't that he wasn't worldly. He'd travelled far more than I likely ever will. Being a hydro-electric engineer for GE takes you all over.

And of course I've told my story of the Canadian Tire vs Snap-On ratchet before. It was a lesson that I'll never forget. And of course that was the point. I was taught the value of GOOD tools from a very young age.
 
Mechanicx, that said, some may well have insufficient means to make purchases that cost even a few dollars more than the lowest cost option. So be it.

It may be because of true lack of means, or it may be because of other financial decisions or alternate uses of funds. Why it is is none of my business.

Id generally agree with your comment, but we do not know every persons' situation. Im willing to give benefit of the doubt.

I just wish that situation or not, people recognized and cared about the effect it has on the workers and taxpayers of this country.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
No matter what anyone says to you your argument eventually resorts to "I'm on a pension and can only afford a $2 hammer (but can afford a $150 reloader) that I'm never going to use, don't care about quality (or that it's an import), I already have my father's quality hammer, HF tools don't break etc."


The first reloading set up I purchased cost $9.99 way back in 1964. The reloading presses I currently use were purchased used at gun showes back in the 80's or 90's. Neither press cost more than $15.00. Haven't purchased ANY reloading equipment since being classified as disabled. So your statement regarding a $150.00 reloader is from someone who doesn't have any knowledge what their talking about.

Regarding the ever famous hammer, I did a search for U.S. manufactured 16 oz. claw hammers. There are only 4 manufactures here in the U.S. Here you go

Wright Tool 16 oz, claw No price listed
Vaughan Tools 16 oz. claw $25.12
Hardcore Hammers 19 oz. strt claw $79.00
Estwing 16 oz. claw $21.00

Now then an imported hammer from any outlet with a list price tor $5.00 or less looks pretty good for someone needing to nail 10 nails in the last few years.

BTW one of the imported hammers I referred to was being sold by Menards not H/F.

Another thought, "Lasting a Lifetime is of little consequense to someone who's 68 yrs old with health problems.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
No matter what anyone says to you your argument eventually resorts to "I'm on a pension and can only afford a $2 hammer (but can afford a $150 reloader) that I'm never going to use, don't care about quality (or that it's an import), I already have my father's quality hammer, HF tools don't break etc."


The first reloading set up I purchased cost $9.99 way back in 1964. The reloading presses I currently use were purchased used at gun showes back in the 80's or 90's. Neither press cost more than $15.00. Haven't purchased ANY reloading equipment since being classified as disabled. So your statement regarding a $150.00 reloader is from someone who doesn't have any knowledge what their talking about.

Regarding the ever famous hammer, I did a search for U.S. manufactured 16 oz. claw hammers. There are only 4 manufactures here in the U.S. Here you go

Wright Tool 16 oz, claw No price listed
Vaughan Tools 16 oz. claw $25.12
Hardcore Hammers 19 oz. strt claw $79.00
Estwing 16 oz. claw $21.00

Now then an imported hammer from any outlet with a list price tor $5.00 or less looks pretty good for someone needing to nail 10 nails in the last few years.

BTW one of the imported hammers I referred to was being sold by Menards not H/F.

Another thought, "Lasting a Lifetime is of little consequense to someone who's 68 yrs old with health problems.


I bought the Estwing several years ago. It hasn't had an easy life
wink.gif
You can see it featured in my "Hammer of Dawn" photo shown thusly:

hammerofdawn.jpg


grin.gif
 
I see you even use the good dish liquid and not the cheap brand or offbrand lol.

I still say even with tight finance the lowest cost option is not always the best buy and can cost you as much or more.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I see you even use the good dish liquid and not the cheap brand or offbrand lol.

I still say even with tight finance the lowest cost option is not always the best buy and can cost you as much or more.


This is also true, that is why the needs of "whatever" item are weighed against the price point and/or quality of said item. I even do this with my vehicles, my one car has 160,000 miles on it, does it get the highest priced parts?, no usually it gets the rebuilt parts, but then again when it comes to brake pads or shoes I again go to the higher prices units for safety sake. Mayhap you are understanding where I'm coming from, there are NO Hard and fast rules here.
 
I'll add this, If I was in the construction trades, believe me I would own and use a first class U.S. manufactured hammer, saw, tape measure, etc., etc. and there would be no problem with the higher cost of the items.
 
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I see you even use the good dish liquid and not the cheap brand or offbrand lol.

I still say even with tight finance the lowest cost option is not always the best buy and can cost you as much or more.


This is also true, that is why the needs of "whatever" item are weighed against the price point and/or quality of said item. I even do this with my vehicles, my one car has 160,000 miles on it, does it get the highest priced parts?, no usually it gets the rebuilt parts, but then again when it comes to brake pads or shoes I again go to the higher prices units for safety sake. Mayhap you are understanding where I'm coming from, there are NO Hard and fast rules here.


Yes I do see where you are coming from and have. My point is that not always is the cheapest tool or part the best value. There's a middle ground between the cheapest tool at HF and the most expensive American made tool. It's not easy to determine a tools or any other products value vs another when it might break or not work right. Even chinese tools of different prices come in different qualtiy levels and the quality ones aren't that much cheaper than quality domestic.

I will admit that some people can't afford the best quality or American made and my argument is not with them. But there are work arounds to buy a cheap chinse tool and throwing it away. A lot of people can afford it and they are simply cheap. For example, I know people who have an income of $200k a year and have thousands in savings and are simply cheap to the point of being penny wise and pound foolish.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I will admit that some people can't afford the best quality or American made and my argument is not with them. But there are work arounds to buy a cheap chinse tool and throwing it away. A lot of people can afford it and they are simply cheap. For example, I know people who have an income of $200k a year and have thousands in savings and are simply cheap to the point of being penny wise and pound foolish.


And as you say, those folks are just being foolish.

I agree!
 
But again, it matters not whether people can or cannot afford it. The damaging effect is blind to the means of the people doing the acquisition. The damage is done, and it is done. There may be "necessity", but it is still a choice, and it still has its effect.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
But again, it matters not whether people can or cannot afford it. The damaging effect is blind to the means of the people doing the acquisition. The damage is done, and it is done. There may be "necessity", but it is still a choice, and it still has its effect.


So in your mind I should just do without, to avoid the damage. Maybe you should just stop driving so as to avoid the damage, or does all your fuel come from the Canadian oil sands>
 
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
But again, it matters not whether people can or cannot afford it. The damaging effect is blind to the means of the people doing the acquisition. The damage is done, and it is done. There may be "necessity", but it is still a choice, and it still has its effect.


So in your mind I should just do without, to avoid the damage. Maybe you should just stop driving so as to avoid the damage, or does all your fuel come from the Canadian oil sands>


Oh, boy... Seriously? Do you really need to do this? That is petty, almost as bad as what you said the mechanicx.

But if you really want to go there... The US imports about 50% of the crude it consumes (the US is the third largest crude producer). So I (and you, since I assume you drive) am already 50% better off than the HF hammer (not to mention that everything post loading dock is done with US jobs, so there is a multiplier there that is far better than your HF counter person).

Of the remaining oil, 25% comes from Canada.

http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=oil_imports

So where are you trying to go with this weak argument? Would I love fully US-sourced fuel? Absolutely, and I'd buy that too.

But you ahve got to be joking if you think that crude source is remotely similar to job stealing from HF and similar Chinese tools (and other Chinese imports, not just tools)... Just joking if that is your argument. Wow.
 
Originally Posted By: Win

I've been wanting to get this battery analyzer for awhile now. May go grab this one afternoon.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2490373&page=1


I know why you posted that in this thread. A little low on your part - a passive-aggressive attack, but its fine. I know why I bought that, from that store. The reality is that there is no practical, convenient US made option for a battery analyzer that is compact (I am not storing something like the one that garages and dealers use, because unlike a hammer, screwdriver, saw, etc., etc., the sizes of those (which may well also be made in China) are disparate). And the reality is that the HF item is the only handheld that actually gives impedance, capacity and CCA in one unit. I actually called the companies (including Bosch) and asked about the information and country of origin.
 
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