UOA 2007 5.9 only 3k on oil, bad results

[sotyphoon415]

Hi guys this is my 1st post, Im a new to UOAs as it gets so all your input is needed and appreciated.

Truck is a 07 5.9 with 32,000 miles on it and the test was taken with 3,00 miles on the oil. Oil was Rottela T 15w-40w.

I run water meth, and wonder if it is contributing to these high sodium and potassium results. Ive always ran -20 washer fluid, which is 30% meth 70% water...supposedly.

Does not seam to be using any coolant but I hardly drive the truck, it sits for a week at a time at least. Oil looks fine on dipstick.

Hoping my head gasket is not leaking. I am still on stock head bolts and running up to 50 PSI.

What do you guys think????

 

[xxch4osxx]

Are you saying you run this engine on wiper fluid? I don't quite understand what you mean.

 

[volk06]

Windshield washer fluid has nothing to do with UOA unless you have meth injection. Your Working a diesel engine it sounds like. I wouldn't say that this is necessarily bad results depending on how hard your working you engine. Diesels always seem to shed more wear metals than gasoline engines and take longer to fully break in.

 

[bullwinkle]

Any chance of running 3K without the washer fluid injection to see if there is any improvement?

 

[fdcg27]

Not so sure about coolant in the oil.
Coolant would cause accelerated bearing wear, and you don't see high lead and copper in this UOA.
Also, there is no water.
Iron wear does sound high, but it would be useful to know what's typical for this engine.
Could fifty pounds of boost be imposing loads on your engine sufficient to cause high iron wear, but not high bearing wear?
I'd try another UOA in 3K and see how it looks.
If all you see is continuing high iron, maybe you should relax?
That's my two cents.

 

[dnewton3]

First of all; welcome to the site!

Now, for the bad news ... I highly suspect you have a coolant leak.

It would be helpful to know the true use of the vehicle. Is it a play truck for the stree? Do you sled-pull? Drag-race? Etc ...

Let's look at the evidence:
This is likely a play truck; 33k miles on an '07 truck means this is not a daily driver. You have water/meth injection; a power adder (not so much a true power added, but used when power adders are in place such as upsized turbo's, tuners, etc). Water meth helps control the charge temps by lowering them as the water and meth evaporate, therby consuming heat energy and cooling the intake charge further. That brings down EGTs from the extra fueling I suspect you're adding. You're running extra boost above stock levels; likely from a tuner package. You're running stock head bolts. You're K and Na are elevated, indicating coolant. Your oil is thickening; a trait often attributed to coolant ingress. Vis thickening can also be from excess soot, but the insolubles (the common BlkStn way to state both soot and other insolubles) is within control at less than .6, so it's probably not just soot contributing here. The Fe is likely a result of the water/meth injection. The water/meth (yes, it is actually commonn to use windshield washer fluid for this task) is washing the oil down off the cylinder walls, and you're getting Fe wear from the cylinder and rings. The water/meth will vaporize before it gets entrained into the oil, so that is why you often don't see "water" in the report. This is also probably why the Fe is elevated, but the Cu and Pb are fine; the wear is in the cylinder and not in the bearings.

Now, I'm not an "expert". But I've read enough and seen enough to recognize the signs. Sir, you've lifted the head and now have a coolant leak. You play, you pay.

If you can stand to live with "normal" power levels, you can stop all the power play stuff, go competely stock, and see if the problem goes away. If it does, you dodged a bullet. If not, you're leak is only going to be solved with a new gasket (or preferably fire-ring'd) and high-end head studs or bolts.


If I'm wrong, someone else please chime in, but this seems completely plausible and frankly, the most likely explanation.

 

[Jim Allen]

Based on what I know, seems like Dave is correct reading the tea-leaves on your oil.

IMO, 50 psi on the engine is about 10 over what it should have without studs but it's not really an extreme amount of boost. Boost isn't the end all number anyway, you might have a lot of drive pressure and that's even worse but I'd have to know a lot more about your turbo setup. Either way, it's enough to lift the head just a bit. I'd check drive pressure right away... ideally equal to boost, or less, but a ratio of 1.5:1 ( drive to boost) is acceptable.

I would advise AGAINST fire-ringing unless it's done by real pros on a CNC machine, not one of those coffee grinder tools. You need to find someone with a really good track record on them. With fire-ringng the difference between a good job and a bad one is 0.002" and you have to have it all dialed in exactly or you'll have external and internal coolant leaks in daily driving. O-ringing is a bit more forgiving, and can be done with the coffee-grinder tool as long as the operator know how much stickout is needed from the o-ring based on the crush of the gaskets's fire-ring (which is variable from gasket to gasket). O-ringing (which presupposes studs) is conservatively safe to about 70 psi boost (with acceptable drive pressure and all else dialed in). O-ring above that.

At your current level, my advice is to use an MLS head gasket and the high end ARP studs (they have a budget kit and a more expensive one). There are guys making 850 hp on that combo and doing OK. You MIGHT get by just by installing the studs but a 24V gasket that's been leaking isn't a real safe bet IMO.

I'm not really a Cummins guy but I am working on a 24 valve Cummins project with some movers and shaker of the industry and we've just been thru exactly this part now, so it's fresh in my mind. This project started from a stock engine and we are working up the power scale incrementally and testing on an engine dyno. It's up to 650 flywheel hp and 1200 lbs-ft at the flywheel and going up. The next set of dyno runs should be at, or exceed, 750 flywheel hp. Lemme tell ya, a Cummins at 4300 rpm is something to behold!

 

[sotyphoon415]

Thanks
Originally Posted By: sotyphoon415
Hi guys this is my 1st post, Im as new to UOAs as it gets so all your input is needed and appreciated.

Truck is a 07 5.9 with 32,000 miles on it and the test was taken with 3,000 miles on the oil. Oil was Rottela T 15w-40w.

I run water meth, and wonder if it is contributing to these high sodium and potassium results. Ive always ran -20 washer fluid, which is 30% meth 70% water...supposedly.

Does not seam to be using any coolant but I hardly drive the truck, it sits for a week at a time at least. Oil looks fine on dipstick.

Hoping my head gasket is not leaking. I am still on stock head bolts and running up to 50 PSI.

What do you guys think????

 

[sotyphoon415]

I tried to edit my 1st post to correct some spelling errors and somehow it looks like I have quoted myself, sorry about that.

Thanks for all your replies!!

This truck is a street performance truck with occasional trips to the drag strip. However one day after the fun factor has worn off it will be my daily driver or when my other truck wears out/dies on me. But as of right now it is performance oriented.

Yes I am using water meth for a power adder at this time.

50 PSI is not extremely high boost wise I agree. I do not have a drive pressure gauge but looks like I will be adding one here real soon. I have a decent sized exhaust wheel on my turbo a 71mm so I would assume they are within "spec".

Now on the other hand my in cylinder pressures could be the culprit. 50 PSI of boost + water meth + 25 degrees advanced timing = high cylinder pressures Im sure.

Have you guys seen potassium and sodium readings cause by any other source then coolant?

Im thinking of making some 1/4 mile runs and sending out another sample, the sample would only have about 500 miles on it. Would that be worth testing??

Im planning on running the truck on a dyno on March 25th, what possible damage could this cause running like this? IF the gasket is blown...unless you guys are sure it is??

Is there a better way to test for coolant that I could do??

Sorry for all the questions, Im just really concerned here and do not want to pull the head if I dont have to. I will stud the head though and that was always my intent but just have not gotten around to it yet....looks like that could prove costly...

TIA Ryan

 

[Jim Allen]

Blown... probably not but the head can seep coolant under high boost situations and not leak otherwise. It really doesn't take much coolant to show on an oil sample. I really can't think of anything but coolant that would give you a potassium reading that high.

As to the dyno, the danger is that you'll blow the head gasket. I have been told by reliable sources that the later 24V heads have warpage issue shat show up when the engine is modded. If you ever do a head gasket, make sure to have the head checked for straightness and have it machined as needed.

Based on what I know about Cummins, you may be a bit ahead of optimal on the timing (I'm making a lot of assumptions not knowing your full setup). If you got that spec as a part of a "recipe" that came with your turbo and other performance goodies (i.e. a good source), I won't argue. If you did it because "more is better" or "everyone does it" (no insult intended.. I just don't know the details, or you) you might do some research on a good number.

Bottom line, I'd stud is ASAP before you HAVE to stud it as part of a blown head gasket scenario. Think of the shame if it happens at the dyno or the track. People might think you have a 6-liter ( : < ).

 

[dnewton3]

I think it's obvious you've got a coolant leak. The question right now is:
1) it is a temporary leak that happens with the head lifting a bit under heavy power
2) it a full on leak that is going to eat it's way into permanancy

If you're lucky, you're getting some coolant blow-by around the gasket only under significant power production.

It costs money to play with the big boys; no other way around it. I'd suggest you stop and at least remove the head, install a premium gasket, and use head studs. Then do the other things Jim suggested for tracking your power-adder specific's including boost, timing, etc. I would agree with Jim; fire-ring at a pro only. You can get a good o-ring job from many decent places.

Cummins engines are great products, but they're not indestructable in all circumstances. Their longevity in stock form, and their prowess in modded forms, leads people to believe there are no limits; nothing could be further from the truth. I suspect your power level is at the ragged edge of your mechanical structural rigidity. In fact, I think you're seeing the evidence of impending doom, should you continue this course of action without mitigating the issues.

To upgrade now will be money well spent. To wait until later will only add to the costs with other un-necessary repairs.

Think of it this way; you spend $30 to avert disaster. There are a LOT of guys that wish they had the good info you have now, without suffering the failures you're about to.


I see this going one of three ways:
1) leave the power as is, the engine as is, and suffer permanent damage soon
2) back down off the power by a substantial amount, and the stock set up will last a long time
3) pony up the money now, do your mechanical structural mods, and turn up the power wick


I hope everything goes well for you. Just don't say you weren't forewarned; the UOA you paid for is telling you something very important; I suggest you not ignore it.

 

[sotyphoon415]

Thanks again for the info fellas.

I have ordered the best set of head studs you can get, the "big boys" ARP625s. Cost me $980....pay to play for sure.

Well the factory head gasket on a HPCR is already a MLS gasket and I still do not believe it is blown between cylinders. So with that said I and going to install the studs, get some miles on her then re test.

I have my fingers crossed that when the head lifted, no damage resulted.