2009 6.7 Cummins turbo failure

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Originally Posted By: rufushusky


EGR is nothing new to Cummins either. California 12Vs had EGR back in the 90s.



6.7s soot the tar out of oil and exhaust gases.


Yeah, question is why? All of the deposits and junk Ive seen in my engines are due to a combination of oil mist that doesnt get separated, and the soot from through the EGR.

But my understanding is that the TURBO is seeing issues due to this, but I do not understand why.
 
The turbo charger's bung up in the vein area, on Cummins engines there is a cone with flutes, these flutes run through a disc. they do not bung up per say, the internal actuator arm binds, the disc comes loose and binds the flutes or the actuator itself fails. Cummins engines all have an open crankcase ventilation system, they posses a crankcase breather filter, it is designed to condense oil vapor and drain it back into the crankcase with a minimal amount of HC's escaping.

International uses a different style of variable vein turbo. In my experience (and feel free to add comments) these turbos simply due to their design clog up. High EGP, low fuel pressure, faulty injectors, extended service intervals, and so on increase the amount of soot created and reduce the exhaust flow. This makes an already known issue more prominent.

Oliver88 raises a good point.

"All the newer trucks diesel engines have crankcase ventilation systems that are "closed" and recirculate all of the oily crank vapors back into the motor. They burn very clean and the tailpipes are absolutelty spotless...that combined with the EGR and DPF can cause problems if not looked after and the truck is not run hard and at operating temp."

A large majority of the trucks that are worked hard have little to no issues regarding soot build up or after treatment issues. All components are up to temp where they are designed to function at their optimum abilities. I see a large amount of issues from trucks that run light or are simply grocery getters.
 
Originally Posted By: DrDusty86
I have had the displeasure of maintaining several Dodge CTDs, they ARE JUNK the 05 is BY FAR the worst.

DUDE, I've out pulled quite a few cumm-a-parts, with a 40' and 24+ round bales behind my PSD. I just wind er' out. The dodge guys have no %#%& and are affraid to rev above 2600rpm, atleast around here, so they slow down to 45mph+-. I set the cruise at 65mph and will run in 5th (direct) with 4.10's it's a pulling monster.

When the junky dodge is on the side of the road with a bad wheel bearing, I feel sorry for the poor SOB and stop and help him.


LMAO! have you replaced a wheel bearing in your truck yet? I have, at the cost of $700 cnd. I'd rather replace a dodge one every 2 years at $140cnd a piece.
That price is at my cost btw, NAPA retails a bearing for an '05 F250 4x4 at $1100cnd. pro's and cons lol
 
Originally Posted By: slammds15
Originally Posted By: DrDusty86
I have had the displeasure of maintaining several Dodge CTDs, they ARE JUNK the 05 is BY FAR the worst.

DUDE, I've out pulled quite a few cumm-a-parts, with a 40' and 24+ round bales behind my PSD. I just wind er' out. The dodge guys have no %#%& and are affraid to rev above 2600rpm, atleast around here, so they slow down to 45mph+-. I set the cruise at 65mph and will run in 5th (direct) with 4.10's it's a pulling monster.

When the junky dodge is on the side of the road with a bad wheel bearing, I feel sorry for the poor SOB and stop and help him.


LMAO! have you replaced a wheel bearing in your truck yet? I have, at the cost of $700 cnd. I'd rather replace a dodge one every 2 years at $140cnd a piece.
That price is at my cost btw, NAPA retails a bearing for an '05 F250 4x4 at $1100cnd. pro's and cons lol


Luckily you are made of money and recently had your truck gold plated
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Originally Posted By: slammds15
I got the loan from you that's how
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LOL!! Payment via off-shore Swiss "investment" account
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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: rufushusky


EGR is nothing new to Cummins either. California 12Vs had EGR back in the 90s.



6.7s soot the tar out of oil and exhaust gases.


Yeah, question is why? All of the deposits and junk Ive seen in my engines are due to a combination of oil mist that doesnt get separated, and the soot from through the EGR.

But my understanding is that the TURBO is seeing issues due to this, but I do not understand why.


The older diesels used a turbo with a wastegate - the newer turbos are s vaiable geometery turbo with no wastegate and it is the mechanism that changes the angle of the vanes that binds when there is a lot of soot present. Higher EGR flow rates + CCV = more soot. The performance of the VGT is nice, but I prefer the simplicity of the wastegate, no egr, and no CCV. I should have kept my 2004.5 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 quad cab with the manual tranny.
 
It's not a case of Cummins adding complication of the cooled EGR, DPF's, and SCR just for the sake of complication. It's the price that they have to pay to be permitted by the EPA to sell engines.
 
I'm still trying to figure out why the 6.7 Dodge C&Cs and bigger Cummins powered trucks have the urea system, and the Dodge pickup uses the fuel-wasting DPF WITHOUT the urea. If I had a 6.7, that DPF would be the FIRST thing to go, warranty be[CENSORED]-ed!!
 
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
I'm still trying to figure out why the 6.7 Dodge C&Cs and bigger Cummins powered trucks have the urea system, and the Dodge pickup uses the fuel-wasting DPF WITHOUT the urea. If I had a 6.7, that DPF would be the FIRST thing to go, warranty be[CENSORED]-ed!!
Longer Service life out of the Urea system?
 
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
It could also be a cost to build vs passing emissions standards thing.
Who knows? Maybe they figure by the time the DPF is toast the rest of the truck and motor aren't far behind. Aren't these(light duty diesels) something like b10-225k mile and b50 300k mile engines?
 
Don't get topics confused ...

As I understand it, the DPF is required because it treats the exhaust particulate (hence the name of the equipment). This is specific to the regeneration cycles needed at times, to heat the PDF unit so it will burn off the soot. The raw fuel is injected in one of two ways. Most common is the "in cylinder" approach where the fuel is shot into the exhaust cycle, and pushed down to the DPF unit to be burned. This is the more common approach. However, GM (Dmax LML) just introduced a 9th injector in the exhaust piping downstream of the engine; hence no fuel/oil dilution. Costs more to have a 9th injector, but it certainly solves oil contamination issues.


The use of urea (SCR - selective catalyst reduction) is used to threat the exhaust gaseous emmisions, specifically nitrogen oxides IIRC. EGR can also be used to treat nitrogen oxides. The Ram truck uses EGR rather than SCR as a matter of chosen bias against less regular maintenance costs, etc. Urea costs money, and it's perceived by some to be an inconvenience in regard to maintenance fill ups, etc. OTOH, the heavy use of EGR has other undesirable effects such as heavy soot loading of the oil and EGR system components. In short, it's a "choice" that the Ram truck folks made; they prefer the EGR over the SCR.

It's important to note that, in regard to DPF and regens, the more you work your truck hard, the less regen events take place. Guys that tow hard/heavy all the time actually have less regens and less EGR/DPF soot contamination because the system gets really hot (desirable) from normal use. OTOH, guys that use their trucks to make a run to Home Depot for wood for the back porch deck, and drive the other 99% of the time to work and back while communting, see a lot of DPF loading and therefore a lot of regen events. These guys often complain about the costs of operating a HD truck; the regens, the EGR cleanings, the cost of urea, and it's their driving cycle that is the root cause. They don't "need" a diesel truck; they "want" one. And they pay a heavy price for that in higher maintenance costs and equipment issues. They can "delete" exhaust equipment and "alter" engine programming, but eventually it will catch up to them with exhaust laws. More and more states are now testing diesel trucks along with cars for exhaust emmisions. "Lost kitty" and "DPF fell off" approaches are short term fixes for long term issues. I fully understand that those fixes work; but they will eventually be made unavailable as the "tree police" get ever more vigilent.



I'm not saying I have a preference; I see the benefits and limitations to each approach. I'm just trying to clear up the concept of DPF, SCR and EGR use.

If I got the terminology wrong, feel free to correct me. Just going by memory here.
 
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EGR and SCR are both NOx control systems, but SCR allows the engines to be tuned for more engine-out NOx, which is then cleaned up in the aftertreatment. When diesels went to high amounts of cooled EGR, they suffered a 10% increase in fuel consumption. SCR engines give better fuel efficiency, and even adding the cost of the urea solution, are cheaper to operate.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
EGR and SCR are both NOx control systems, but SCR allows the engines to be tuned for more engine-out NOx, which is then cleaned up in the aftertreatment. When diesels went to high amounts of cooled EGR, they suffered a 10% increase in fuel consumption. SCR engines give better fuel efficiency, and even adding the cost of the urea solution, are cheaper to operate.


Yes sir, SCR basically allows the engine to run "dirtier" with the after treatment catching the NOx and rely less on EGR for the NOx reduction.

IMHO the Dmax with the 9th injector is the way to go...very similar to what Detroit did on the DD-13 and DD-15. IIRC Mack does something similar too. The downside is the increase upfront cost due to the SCR system and the slightly higher operating costs associated with Urea.

IMHO due to their complexity, the more and more specialized operating requirements and the cost of the fuel light duty diesels are moving away from the consumer level user and back to vocational uses. Which isn't the end of the world cause we have half tons trucks now that can do the job 3/4 and 1 tons did 5-10 years ago and still get high teens mpg burning a cheaper fuel.

If I had to purchase a new truck for my use there would be no way I would buy a new diesel sure they are powerful and very capable but I can get a 1/2 ton that can tow my fifth wheel (only about 9k pounds) no problem and cost less to maintain and drive. The only issue I would possibly run into would be with my plow but that would be a nice excuse to get rid of it and rehab an old ariens!

Sorry to the OP, I ventured a little OT!
 
Again, if you NEED a diesel engine in a light duty truck by all means buy it and use it as intended. They (all the Big Three) make great tow vehicles and heavy haulers. The guys who buy them,do lots of mods and just want the "cool" factor from owning a diesel are usually the most frustrated. They will complain all the way back to the dealer.
 
The funny thing is, my Cummins powered Ram is usually the truck I drive the LEAST-the older IDI trucks, mainly the F-450 7.3 non-turbo with it's big Reading body, usually get used a lot more, along with the company 6.0 PSD van (when it's out of the shop!). The big D usually only tows the boat or hauls 6 people around, I'm usually too busy for play time. I agree if you have a diesel you NEED to work it, they're just too expensive to be a DD, even without the fuel $$$.
 
Also slightly OT-Dave, does Indy (and the state of IN) emission test diesels? Here in OH, when we had E-check, they stuck a probe in the exhaust to measure opacity on a treadmill, my son's old 300D would blow visible smoke and still register 0.0%!!
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An alternative (my alternative) is to order a vehicle from Proffitt's Cruisers in Colorado:
new 2010 HZJ79 Landcruiser pickup body, built on rust free 8.5" lengthened galvanized FJ60 frame with rebuilt turboed 1HZ 6 cyl diesel with 5spd trans, lockers, 33-34" tires, etc etc.
Hopefully it will look and smell "new" and the cost is about the same as a new diesel pickup, without EGR/SCR/DPF, with a reasonable 4.2L and 200hp/~300 ft-lb and 2500 lb load capacity.
It does take about a year from down payment to delivery....
Will be registered according to VIN on frame as mid 80s LC.

Charlie
 
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