Amsoil base stocks not what they used to be?

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Originally Posted By: buster
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html

Basically Amsoil is not paying to officially approve their top of the line oils, therefore you don't really know what you're getting. How would you really know if they were using multiple base oils to cut costs? You don't. You have to trust the company. Amsoil has been around a long time, like Redline. Both are two reputable boutique brands.


I trust 'em. Haven't seen 'epic fail' for TBN in an app w/ driving conditions to warrant extended drains. OTOH, there is definitely a lot of doubt regarding some newer model vehicles with OLM pushing beyond TBN depletion. That is a tangible issue compared to this discussion.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html

Basically Amsoil is not paying to officially approve their top of the line oils, therefore you don't really know what you're getting. How would you really know if they were using multiple base oils to cut costs? You don't. You have to trust the company. Amsoil has been around a long time, like Redline. Both are two reputable boutique brands.
I'm guessing a large portion of their consumer base still drinks the "Gr3 is not real synthetic " koolaid but the company can't survive on them alone. Amsoil must adapt or die. Looks like its adapting.
 
Quote:
I'm guessing a large portion of their consumer base still drinks the "Gr3 is not real synthetic " koolaid

Well it does not meet the legal definition used in some countries which basically says if it comes out of the ground its not synthetic so its not koolaid.
Trying to pass a high end dino off as synthetic is marketing and word games at its best.

This has nothing to do with the oils performance its about truth in advertising if anything.
Could they really sell this stuff for the premium they charge for synthetic if they had to label it "best quality dino" or " performs like synthetic"?
Heck no the perceived extra value to the average consumer of using a superior product is gone.
 
What i have to add on the general topic of basestocks not specific to AMSOIL but to all oils is.. I DO have to ask how a basestock which SHOULD be making up ~99% of the content of the oil poured from its container ot the crankcase... is irrelevant...
whistle.gif
Please educate me, thank you!
smile.gif


(And i ask because i just may spring for Redline oil, if not AMSOIL in select grades, depends on the engine, in my next car. Its almost literally either that, or Supertech in the grade i need. Those are my choices. And ST costs a little more for a 50gallon jug than RL does per quart, so... please educate me, thank you.)

I know FM/addy packs are important, but why are basestocks SO discredited? Thats what im asking.. I dont understand.

Old logic:
Group III/III+/III+E = Very very good, and a lot of what we see. Is now "As good as"
Group IV - (Royal Purple.) Rumored to be GREAT, but "cold start" performance is attacked.
Group V - The Redline, AMSOILs. (?) - Considered the most exotic, best for HM engines due to its Group II-like "Stick," and very smooth.

I could be 100% wrong but i recall reading this.
Quote:

Basically, Amsoil is not revealing anything about their oil blending solutions (just like every other oil company) and Amsoil is free to change blends without notice to their customers (just like every other oil company). But, regardless of behaving like every other oil company, Amsoil's different from every other oil company. Luckily, I put on my explosion-proof head when I got up this morning.



TBF, i think Mobil 1 went Group III too and nobody fussed. Why? Because of that shiny bottle! And its still great oil...

Thats why Castrol won its suit, the advertising was OK with "Syntec" name..........................................
 
Originally Posted By: 45ACP
What i have to add on the general topic of basestocks not specific to AMSOIL but to all oils is.. I DO have to ask how a basestock which SHOULD be making up ~99% of the content of the oil poured from its container ot the crankcase... is irrelevant...
whistle.gif
Please educate me, thank you!
smile.gif


(And i ask because i just may spring for Redline oil, if not AMSOIL in select grades, depends on the engine, in my next car. Its almost literally either that, or Supertech in the grade i need. Those are my choices. And ST costs a little more for a 50gallon jug than RL does per quart, so... please educate me, thank you.)

I know FM/addy packs are important, but why are basestocks SO discredited? Thats what im asking.. I dont understand.

Old logic:
Group III/III+/III+E = Very very good, and a lot of what we see. Is now "As good as"
Group IV - (Royal Purple.) Rumored to be GREAT, but "cold start" performance is attacked.
Group V - The Redline, AMSOILs. (?) - Considered the most exotic, best for HM engines due to its Group II-like "Stick," and very smooth.

I could be 100% wrong but i recall reading this.
Quote:

Basically, Amsoil is not revealing anything about their oil blending solutions (just like every other oil company) and Amsoil is free to change blends without notice to their customers (just like every other oil company). But, regardless of behaving like every other oil company, Amsoil's different from every other oil company. Luckily, I put on my explosion-proof head when I got up this morning.



TBF, i think Mobil 1 went Group III too and nobody fussed. Why? Because of that shiny bottle! And its still great oil...

Thats why Castrol won its suit, the advertising was OK with "Syntec" name..........................................


You've got the last two in your list mixed up. Redline should be the only one in that category.
 
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
I'm guessing a large portion of their consumer base still drinks the "Gr3 is not real synthetic " koolaid but the company can't survive on them alone. Amsoil must adapt or die. Looks like its adapting.


I still think that GrIII is not synthetic, under the definition of the word as originally used.

Shell didn't either, when it was marketting XHVI basestocks as mineral with the performance of synthetic.

I'd have no problems if some of the savings were passed on to the consumer, but on the whole, they aren't.

Do you prefer cane sugar or HFCS in your koolaid ?

Why ?

they are both sweet.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
I'm guessing a large portion of their consumer base still drinks the "Gr3 is not real synthetic " koolaid

Well it does not meet the legal definition used in some countries which basically says if it comes out of the ground its not synthetic so its not koolaid.
Trying to pass a high end dino off as synthetic is marketing and word games at its best.

This has nothing to do with the oils performance its about truth in advertising if anything.
Could they really sell this stuff for the premium they charge for synthetic if they had to label it "best quality dino" or " performs like synthetic"?
Heck no the perceived extra value to the average consumer of using a superior product is gone.
with the introduction of the OLM I would argue almost all cars which have them require a "synthetic"performing oil. Many top tier oils are a compilation of Gr3/4/5 oils. The bruha made over the merits of gr3 vs gr4 is like arguing over 5 shiny pennies vs 1 dull nickel.
 
[/quote]


TBF, i think Mobil 1 went Group III too and nobody fussed. Why? Because of that shiny bottle! And its still great oil...

[/quote]

Actually, as I recall, there was quite a bit of consternation on this site when it was discovered that Mobil 1 was using Grp III base stocks. People felt betrayed, announced they would never buy Mobil 1 again, emails sent to XOM, replies interpreted to mean they were evading questions, etc.
 
Trav wrote: "Well it does not meet the legal definition used in some countries "

As far as I can tell, the only country that has this issue is Germany -- the same country that historically stated that beer could only include three ingredients (water, hops, and malt). Since microbes were unknown at the time of the policy, brewers yeast could not be intentionally used in Germany until the policy was abandoned.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
remember guys, 99.99% of Amsoil customers are NOT BITOG members. Can you understand this at all? It's Amsoil marketing technique and it works.



You make a good point Pablo, the problem here is that Amsoil's marketing technique is not working with many Bitog Members.
 
Is an Extended drain oil, such as Amsoil 25k/ Mobil 1 EP, mutually exclusive with using any part of a group III oil?

I was under the impression that the highly refined Dino, aka base 3, couldn't do this long haul, no matter the add pack.

So, it might be true that they cut a corner by making it a composition with Dino, but if it works as good in the OCI long haul, then it shouldn't matter. The ethics of non- disclosure seem to be universal these days.
 
Originally Posted By: INTJ
I was under the impression that the highly refined Dino, aka base 3, couldn't do this long haul, no matter the add pack.

Depends on a few other variables, e.g. sump capacity, etc.
Lubrication Engineers make great oil that runs forever and it is not synthetic, and they are not the only ones.. Again, base is only one variable in application scenario.
 
Yeah, it's only one variable, but a "proper" synthetic basestock will have better oxidative stability, and provide a better outcome all things being equal, ragardless of the package of either being "adequate".

Oil manufacturer's/blenders have been advertising "premium" rather than "adequate" for decades, and are reducing the "quality" of the ingredients, without reflecting that in their prices, or their claims...that much is obvious just in watching pour points over the last decades.
 
Why did I even open this thread up? I knew I shouldn't eat this fruit....
crazy.gif
 
I get the impression that 'corporatism' outstrips the people via U.S. congress' philosophy of hands off approach. Load up the front end of this engine, so to speak; 'keep it unencumbered,' and the carte blanche facilitates 'stimulation' by turning the money over.
 
IIRC you need to include Austria and Switzerland, oils are labeled as they are in Germany.
I don't know if these countries have a "law" on the books about the definition.
Seeing as the German company I.G. Farben was first to develop a commercially viable synthetic engine oil it only make sense they would be the first to legally define what it is.

The Reinheitsgebot is to this discussion apples and oranges and irrelevant. You will notice unmalted barley was removed from the mix and still nothing artificial is allowed.
 
@ Trav:
No offense was intended. I was trying point out that using labeling policy of a few countries to validate a position seemed like a weak argument to me. I don't know the labeling convention in Austria and Switzerland, you may be correct.

I'm stuck at looking at the world from the point of view of a geneticist, but I guess the relevance was lost. Water is the only natural ingredient in beer. The biology parts of beer are ALL the result of genetic selection. Stating that beer contains nothing artificial seems very similar to stating that GrpIII oil is synthetic - from my perspective. Neither are technically true. GrpIII is artificial (not naturally occurring) but is not synthetic (built-up from smaller parts). Agricultural varieties (including brewer's yeast strains) are not found in nature (artificial). Some of the agricultural species are actually built from species with smaller genomes (synthetic).
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Amsoil
We no longer market any of our oils to contain any specific base oil chemistry. The proof is in the performance.


Sounds like Amsoil is probably some percentage of all major groupings...I also think the performance in real-world apps is what counts. No paper oil champ, some just key characteristics in certain areas over others.

Red Line great for HTHS in a racer.

Amsoil great extended drain oil, considered overkill.

M1, Pennzoil both making good synthetics capable of extended use; especially EP and Ulra respectively. Readily available, popularity.

Castrol has a niche with GC that's for sure, but not sure where in NA it wins out over M1 or Shell products, the market here is saturated with various XOM and Shell product lines.

Some various formulators making quality oils for manufacturers as well, like the Toyota 0w-20 which has the perfect application in something like a Prius. Motorcraft has some popularity as well for domestic apps.

ADDED: I'm more interested personally in learning about foreign markets for products like FUCHS, Liqui-Moly, etc. in apps over here with our fuels.
 
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