Red Line 5w20, 20K miles, VW Golf 1.9L TDI ALH

[azsynthetic]

Miles on car 250,892 , miles on oil 19,749 miles

Total oil used was 5 Liters of Red Line 5W20 and 40 oz of Z-MAX as make-up oil. One VW full flow filter and a used Amsoil BE-90 with 41K miles were used.

First column is UOA of Red Line 5W20, second column is UOA of the previous 41K using Liqui Moly 5W30 and Red Line 30WT race oil. All UOAs were done by Polaris lab.

.................Red Line.....Liqui Moly
Iron................41.........45
Chromium.........2..........1
Nickle..............0..........1
Aluminum.........6..........4
Copper.............5..........5
Lead...............14..........7
Tin.................1..........0
Silicon.............8..........8
Sodium............7..........3
Molybdenum......557........273
Antimony..........0..........0
Manganese........0..........1
Boron..............30.........20
Magnesium.......36.........142
Calcium...........2632......2701
Phosphorus.......1178......1353
Zinc............ ..1275......1382

Fuel.............. 0.0%...........0.5%
Soot............. 0.1%...........0.2%
Water (IR)...... < 0.1..........< 0.1%
VIS @ 100C ..... 9.3 cSt......11.7
TBN.............. 3.30...........2.48
IR Oxidation.... 62.............53
IR Nitration..... 21.............21

The Oxidation number is due to the Red Line oil. I posted the previous UOA because I did not replace the bypass filter (Amsoil BE-90) previously which contained about a quart of the old oil. I used Z-Max as makeup oil because it gave me better mileage and also less oil consumption.

This 20K run included a full Arizona Summer and a 3,700 mile trip from Phoenix-Oklahoma-Minneapolis and back during Christmas. I always add about 8oz of 2T oil per fill up and it is usually Phillip-66 InjexPro or Mark III castor oil, whatever I have left on the shelf.

I replaced all filters and is currently running 0w5 Neo Racing Synthetic. This oil makes my engine so quiet at idle and at speed that I was totally surprised. Based on my Scan Guage read out my mileage went from 62.5 (with Red Line 5W20) to 63.7 at 50mph. I got about 1,200 miles on this oil and so far so good.

 

[Roadkingnc]

Z-max, I had a 1.9L ford engine that was smoking due to sticking rings. A few doses of z_max and that car never did smoke again but dropped a valve seat out of the head and self destructed. The seats coming loose is a known concern with these engines and happened without warning. Also put in my bikes fuel about 2 times a year, and I work for the guy that owns z-max.

 

[oliveoil]

Isn't this engine spec'd for a 5-40?

 

[azsynthetic]

Of course it is. Best mileage I have gotten with X-40WT oil is 49mpg. Best mileage with X-30Wt oil is 57mpg. Best with 5W20 is 59mpg. Best with 0W5 is to be known about 9 months from now.

 

[dnewton3]

I realize that these engines shed Fe, but I'd keep an eye on the Pb. Way too early to say you have a real issue; it could just be a streak that let loose.

You bounce around with brand/grade so much it's going to be really hard to know what is working for you and what isn't.

Clearly you are showing that thinner oils make for less pumping losses, and therefore better fuel economy. But I think that isn't any big suprise, either.

 

[JHZR2]

20wt oils are not intended for diesel use, and lack of dispersant package to handle soot may cause more abrasive wear of soft metals in tight bearing areas.

Just a thought... Its a lot of miles and a little soot (bit that is because of the bypass, it may still be in there at some point), so its not going to make a hige effect, but youre not seeing a huge effect. You really went 19k on that oil??!?

Interesting little test!

 

[azsynthetic]

The lead starts to show up after the use of Z-Max. I think Z-Max is loosing (cleaning?) things up. The trip on Christmas included several hours of 80-90mph driving with boost pressure around 20-22psi so this might have some effects. I am not running Z-Max during this OCI to see if the lead level out.

My goal is the highest mileage with the wear number that I can live with. So far, the wear is pretty normal even with 5W20. My OCI for this car is 20K or more so I am going to run the 0W5 to at least 20K, probably 25K.

 

[rufushusky]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
20wt oils are not intended for diesel use, and lack of dispersant package to handle soot may cause more abrasive wear of soft metals in tight bearing areas.

Just a thought... Its a lot of miles and a little soot (bit that is because of the bypass, it may still be in there at some point), so its not going to make a hige effect, but youre not seeing a huge effect. You really went 19k on that oil??!?

Interesting little test!


It is actually a CF rated oil so it can handle some level of soot...

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=1&pcid=21

 

[JHZR2]

recommended... Big difference. How much soot is the dispersant package designed to maintain? This is where API/no API and especially for an obsolete spec like CF might become a consideration.

They can say CF all they want, but I doubt that this is an oil they optimized for diesel use.

 

[azsynthetic]

But the soot is contained by the bypass filter so the rating is moot. Based on previous UOAs on this car the soot has nothing to do with the wear number. The bypass filter was still working when I replaced it, albeit at a lower filtering speed.

 

[dnewton3]

Let us not forget that the sample rate of a typicaly bypass filter system is 10% of the total oil flow. For every trip out of the oil pump, a soot particle will go strait to the full flow filter and never be caught by the bypass. Since soot starts out sub-micron in size, and must agglomerate (co-join) to become an issue, it often takes many trips before it ever get's big enough to be caught by the full flow filter.

So, conceptually, soot will continue to grow until it's caught by the full flow filter, or get caught on the 10% chance it went into the bypass filter. The rest of the time, it's running amuck in your engine ...

That is why dispersents are so very important in your additive package. They help keep soot from agglomerating. Until your additive package is overwhelmed, it's by far the most important part of soot control.

 

[azsynthetic]

According to Amsoil, all the oil is filtered after 30 minutes of driving, i.e. have gone through the bypass filter at least once. My soot level is 0.1% of particles that are not caught by the full flow and the bypass filters. Anything that small is irrelevant with respect to wear. Oil condemnation is usually for soot level above 3% so for all practical purposes I do not have a soot related wear problem.

 

[Tim]

I am going to go out on a limb....

There was more at work than just a change of viscosity in going from 49mpg to 60+.

Driving style likely accounted for a large portion of this change, even if the mechanicals were all the same.

My ALH would get up to 60mpg on 5-40 oil, or as low as 50, depending on my driving. Lighter oils only made a couple mpg difference max...not 10+.

Could your car be that much different from my '03 ALH?

I think you are likely giving the oil viscosity too much credit for mpg increase.

My $0.02 from the sideline!

Tim

 

[azsynthetic]

My car is also an 03' and 80-90% of my driving is on the highway at 60-65. The jump from 49 to 57 mpg has a few upgrades. They are EGR deletion, racing intake, 205/70-15 tires, bypass filter, adding 2T oil at fill up. Going from x-40 to x-30 oil alone got me to 54 mpg. I track all of my fuel burns since new.

My goal for this vehicle is mileage and not minimal engine wear. My driving is pretty much the same everyday, about 140 miles round trip with just me in the car.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Let us not forget that the sample rate of a typicaly bypass filter system is 10% of the total oil flow. For every trip out of the oil pump, a soot particle will go strait to the full flow filter and never be caught by the bypass. Since soot starts out sub-micron in size, and must agglomerate (co-join) to become an issue, it often takes many trips before it ever get's big enough to be caught by the full flow filter.

So, conceptually, soot will continue to grow until it's caught by the full flow filter, or get caught on the 10% chance it went into the bypass filter. The rest of the time, it's running amuck in your engine ...

That is why dispersents are so very important in your additive package. They help keep soot from agglomerating. Until your additive package is overwhelmed, it's by far the most important part of soot control.


Exactly! Well stated!

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
According to Amsoil, all the oil is filtered after 30 minutes of driving, i.e. have gone through the bypass filter at least once. My soot level is 0.1% of particles that are not caught by the full flow and the bypass filters. Anything that small is irrelevant with respect to wear. Oil condemnation is usually for soot level above 3% so for all practical purposes I do not have a soot related wear problem.


Do not confuse percentage concentration with particle size; they are not the same.

I do agree that soot percentage can be the limiting measure of an OCI, but very few people on this site (or elsewhere) ever get a load that heavy with soot. Most people change their oil WAY before it's time. Our friend Doug from down-under is one of the few that will manage his fleet to such a degree.

Further, the bypass filtration ratio is key here. I have no ability to validate or discredit the Amsoil claim, but for the sake of the debate, let's just accept their claim; one full cycle of the sump through the bypass filter in 30 minutes. Know what else that means? If you got 1 cycle of the sump via bypass in 30 minutes, you also got 9 cycles of the sump through the engine where it never saw the bypass. During those "other nine cycles" any soot contained in the oil was either:
1) big enough that it was caught by the full flow filter
2) small enough that it passed through the FF filter, and yet never went to the bypass filter

Why does soot stay small?
1) the production rate of soot is fairly low and constant for any given engine and fuel combination and has become very well controlled in the engine design (credit the combination of common rail direct injection and good cylinder sealing)
2) the addtive package (specifically the dispersents) is controlling the soot and not allowing it to agglomerate


Soot is not small because of your bypass filter; it's small because of additives. Until those are overwhelmed, they control size. Additives cannot stop production of soot, but neither can a filter. But the additve CAN help control the growth rate for the entire sump load 100% of the time, where the bypass can only affect it 10% of the time.

 

[azsynthetic]

Do you think soot will coagulate fast enough in 30 minutes to make a difference? Not according to Amsoil and any one that manufacture oils. Again, show me some proof where soot level of 0.1% is detrimental to engine performance. Show me where soot can agglomerate fast enough in 30 minutes to make a difference. Amsoil test results match that of my own UOAs and that is the bypass filter eliminate any soot problem that "might" contribute to any engine wear.

Per Amsoil specs: EaBP Filters provide higher filtering efficiency, soot removal and increased oil capacity due to superior media composition and configuration. AMSOIL EaBP Filters have an efficiency of 98.7 percent at two microns. At normal operating RPM the EaBP Filter will filter all of the oil in a typical five-quart sump in less than 10 minutes. These filters remove 39 percent of soot contaminants less than one micron. Soot removal efficiency can increase approximately 10 to 14 percent when EaBP Filters are used in conjunction with a standard full-flow filter.

 

[EricJRoy]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Of course it is. Best mileage I have gotten with X-40WT oil is 49mpg. Best mileage with X-30Wt oil is 57mpg. Best with 5W20 is 59mpg. Best with 0W5 is to be known about 9 months from now.


Going 5w-20 and below is too risky for my taste but thanks for doing your part to reduce consumption of non renewables

Any aero mods yet?

 

[ltslimjim]

Keep an eye on Pb, silicon entry was the same in half the mileage compared to the previous 40k mile interval, right? Of course still very low, just pointing out.

You could always try upping things to Red Line 0w-30 and compared your fuel economy...then again isn't Red Line's 5w-20 supposed by function a lot like a 30 grade?

 

[rufushusky]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim

You could always try upping things to Red Line 0w-30 and compared your fuel economy...then again isn't Red Line's 5w-20 supposed by function a lot like a 30 grade?


With a kinematic viscosity of 9.3cST it is really more like a light 30 wt oil. If it were me I would run a 30wt CI or CJ diesel oil like Amsoil 5w-30 or even Rotella 10w-30 but if hypermpg is the aim it looks like the red line is holding its own all things considered.