Chlorinated paraffins in additives

[charentejohn]

I have been going in circles having bought a product said to contain these (starts with a Z ends in a 1). I still haven't been able to find out what CPs actually do and what proportion would be in such a product. I contacted them to ask what percentage is CP and if used then drained within a couple of weeks would the CP leave with the oil.
The car is a Citroen Xantia HDI diesel which I have just bought

I know the general opinion of additives is don't use them, but I would like the option to do so. I am hoping people here will be able to give more info on CP and what it does rather than just saying don't use it CP will wreck your engine.

Since they were unable to say, secret formula, how much is CP I said I will just assume 90% with the rest as secret formula.
On that basis if CPs are so bad then I would use it before an oil change (225ml to be put in 4.5L of oil), run for about 2 weeks, then change the oil as normal. My thoughts were that this would deposit the product as specified then remove the potentially damaging CP ?

Why I ask is that if CPs are part of the process I am not sure I like the idea, but if just the carrier of the secret ingredients then not so bad. My worry is that if CPs are so bad why not just use someting else as the carrier, I can only assume CPs are necessary so may be part of the process and remain on surfaces.

I am manily worried that if this is so bad would any be left on the bearings etc. in any significant amounts. I would guess if a very small mount of CP turned to acid then the acid protectors in the oil could deal with that ?

Any advice appreciated.

 

[carwreck]

The general opinion is Chlorinated paraffins should not be added to engine oil.

"A number of ‘add-on’ additives intended to improve the performance of commercially available automotive lubricants have been marketed in recent years, under such names as ‘Xxtralube ZX-1’, ‘Metol FX-1’, ‘PPL Anti-Friction’ and ‘Activ-8’.All such products share the following characteristics with ‘X-1R Friction Eliminator’...X-1R Friction Eliminator and its clones are based upon very outdated technology, which was abandoned by responsible lubricant manufacturers for automotive transmission uses in the 1950s."

http://forum.atomclub.com/index.php?topic=9956.0
http://www.midbrook.com/assets/PDFs/WhitePapers/Cleaning-Chlorinated-Paraffins.pdf

See prior thread from BITOG.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=936466

 

[bepperb]

Originally Posted By: charentejohn


I know the general opinion of additives is don't use them, but I would like the option to do so.

Any advice appreciated.


That's the nice thing about the Internet, even if 99.9% of people think what you are doing is a bad idea... google will find someone who agrees with you.

You never really said WHY you want to use this product. For whatever that reason is (and sadly it sounds like you want to use it just because you have it) there is probably a better product to do what you want.

Sell it on Ebay.

 

[GMorg]

I'll admit to having used chlorinated paraffins as oil additives. The big issue is acid formation. Most formulations appear to have a hefty dose of base to deal with minor potential problems. The big issue is that they are not "use is and forget about it" products. With time and/or moisture, these compounds can be detrimental.

By the way, MMO contains a chlorinated paraffin and is often mentioned on this site in both a positive and a negative light.

 

[MolaKule]

I don't know why you HAVE to use a CP.

Do you have some of the buffered Dover Chemical stuff lying around?

Environmentally, they are very nasty.

Tribologically, they form acids under the high temperatures encountered in engines to create and or promote corrosion cracks.

Quote:
By the way, MMO contains a chlorinated paraffin and is often mentioned on this site in both a positive and a negative light.


Which item in the MMO recipe contains CP's?

 

[dailydriver]

Is there any interelation between CPs and PTFEs (as in, do PTFEs break down into CPs)??

(PLEASE don't laugh, I am most definitely NOT a tribologist, or CE, that's why I am on this site, and asking questions!

)

 

[GMorg]

Molecule

I see your point. MMO contains dichlorobenzene, a chlorinated hydrocarbon ring. Since paraffinic hydrocarbons are straight-chain molecules, my statement was incorrect.

 

[Solarent]

No there is no relationship between the two. CP's fall under the category of EP additives while PTFE (while performing a similar function) is a solid lubricant.

 

[carwreck]

Apply "starts with a Z ends in a 1" decal to the oustide of your Anglia.

 

[charentejohn]

Thanks,a lot of information but more or less what I suspected.
Sadly, as you guessed, I am asking because I bought some and am now wondering wheteher to use it or not. I did use it many years ago but did not keep the car long enough to see any ill effects.

I think, could be wrong, that what is being said here is that the sdditive is just CP ? Is this what is reducing friction and will cling to the bearings or is it just transporting other ingredients using a high pressure medium ?

These are the main questions.

I did see a ZX youtube demo to show no corrosion of copper but I wrote and pointed out that 6hrs (I believe that was the time) was not as long as 1 year in a car engine so say 300+ hours may have been a better test.

I am happy to bin the product rather then damage a car I want to keep for many years. Just bought the car as kind of a working daily car / hobby mix. I like the cars, this one has been reasonably, but not well, maintained so could use a little tlc but has no major defects.

If this additive would help reduce friction and not deposit CPs on the bearings etc. long term then worth a shot in my opinion. If it could do more harm than good long term then the bin it is.....
I am still saddened by the manufacturers of any procucts saying the formula is secret whan any decent chemist should be able to analyse it very quickly ?

The main deciding factor is - will the CP remain after an oil change. Simple answers please.
I am just getting into oil as a component of the car so not too technical please.

 

[bepperb]

I'm not sure how much would remain after an oil change since I don't know how much would "cling" to the metal. I would assume not much.

If you want something that reduces friction and clings to metal parts, in fact depositing itself on wear surfaces, you want an oil with a lot of Moly.

 

[charentejohn]

I think you are right, I would assume paraffin (chlorinated or otherwise, would mix with the oil and so leave with it, apart from trace amounts of no importance.

I still can't figure out if the CP actually bonds itself to the metal, I would assume not as it mixes with the oil ? So it would just lie on the bearings like normal oil, once removed any small amounts left would be so small that even if the produce acids it would be even less then the remaining CP that created it.

I am becoming convinced that CP left in an engine for some time, say 6k miles woild not be a good idea, but for 200 miles should not be a problem ?

 

[porcupine73]

I think Duralube was one of the original additives to contain chlorinated paraffins. I believe they are very popular in metal working fluids, but it doesn't appear they are a good idea to use in an engine's oil.

 

[charentejohn]

The reason I am now unsure about CPs is because I read an article posted in other forums which came from here. It is why I thought I would try the souce of the info for a definitve answer on whether any product containing CPs would leave the CPs in the engine once the oil is removed.

Basically are CPs the 'magic ingredient' that sticks to the metal in cars and is therefore left behind regardless of oil changes.

I assume it is just the carrier of ingredients but nobody will say if this can be used as a magic ingredient in it's own right.

Not meaning any product in particular is the above true or false ?

 

[TMoto]

Originally Posted By: porcupine73
I believe they are very popular in metal working fluids...

This is true, especially for long chain chlorinated paraffin, although there may be some companies that use toxic short-chain chlorinated paraffin.

Chlorine serves as an effective extreme pressure additive, however there are requirements for some aerospace and medical parts to use chlorine free fluids.

 

[charentejohn]

Sorry guys but you all know a lot more than I do so please keep the answers simple.
Nobody has yet said yes or no to the following -

Are CPs what stick to the metal surfaces forming a low friction surface ?

If they do not stick to the surface of the metal but just carry the ingredients then they should be removed with the oil ?

I am really struggling with this, I know nothing about chemistry and the various applications of oils, and just need some confirmation of what CPs do in Car engines if they are used as an additive.
I am now turning back to thinking the may be ok because, just as the people selling these as ok for engines won't say yes or no, neither will those saying don' use them.

Simple questions as above, yes or no......

 

[Solarent]

I am not sure that I want to wade into the thick of this; because understanding how CP work can quickly turn into a battle about the legitimacy of using them in an engine oil environment and the potential negative effects with regards to used oil toxicity (although I think that Environment Canada recently published a study that discusses the difference between long and short chain and labels long chain as non-toxic). But here I go anyways:
Quote:
Is this what is reducing friction and will cling to the bearings or is it just transporting other ingredients using a high pressure medium ?

In understanding the answer to this question you first need to understand the way polarized oil films work. Essentially a polar group with a long hydrocarbon chain (in diagrams it pretty much looks like a sperm) line up along the non-polar surface. Along a metal surface there is a reaction that occurs where metal chloride film will form. This film is only a few molecules thick and provides excellent friction reduction and stays active until removed by microscopic abrasive wear (at which point new polarized molecules move in and the process is repeated).
Essentially, the CP will "cling to bearings" and "reduce friction" as your product likely describes. However it is important to note that CP (like Phosphorus and Sulphur based EP compounds)are temperature sensitive and are only active (functional as a EP component from around 150-500 degrees CELSIUS - Phosphorus starts at 250-900 - Sulphur starts at 550 - 1000) Please note that on the nanoscale contact point temperatures and frictional forces among asperities are exponentially increased.

The dangers to using CP's in engine oils is a very real concern and part of the reason why they have been taken out or changed in some oil formulations specifically because of the acid forming ability when contaminated with water. But any water contamination is bad for your engine whether or not you use chlorine containing EP additives. AND Phosphorus can also react with water to form phosphoric acid as can sulfur to form sulfuric acid; you can also find boric acid and others that will also corrode your engine and bearings in the same way that a chlorine could. This is why it is critical to include in oil formulations detergents, antioxidants and acid neutralizers. This is also why I would shy away from using additive products that are not balanced formulas containing more than just extra EP additives and that are designed to complement the additives used in a finished oil.
Because of the way individual additive components interact with each other it is unlikely that the one time use of CP's (again depending on concentration and barring serious moisture contamination) would cause permanent damage to an engine. But if you are unsure of the quality of the product you have purchased I wouldn't risk it.

The second major concern is the environmental toxicity levels and that is a whole other subject that many agencies and countries can't seem to agree on - just like they can't agree on binding emission reduction commitments either....

For more information I would refer you to the ASTM: A COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW OF LUBRICANT CHEMISTRY, TECHNOLOGY, SELECTION, AND DESIGN - CHAPTER FOUR.

 

[Solarent]

I should also add just to further answer your question that unlike solid lubricants (PTFE, MOS2 etc) that leave a permanent surface bond, CP's do not endure over time and if you were to use one and then stop and go back to regular oil the metal chloride film that is formed with the CP will be removed over time by the detergents in the oil.

And, because you are in France there is more strict regulation on the use of CP's because of the environmental issues - not that it would necessarily effect you as a low volume consumer - but regulations may make it hard for you to dispose of waste oil.

 

[charentejohn]

Thank you Solarent that is exactly what I was looking for and the clearest explanation I have seen so far.

It explains in an understandable way what the various types of CPs actually do and how they react in an engine without 'taking sides'.

I did not want to start another 'oh yes it is' - 'oh no it isn't' CP argument, just understand what they are used for and how they work. Most other forums have posts taking sides with no explanation of how CPs work, so always hard to decide what to do.

I can then make up my mind whether to use them or not, knowledge is power, so allowing an informed decision rather than being told what to do by others. When you have well presented information you can make up your own mind.

Thanks again, John

 

[Bearracing]

Chlorinated Paraffins have been widely used in a variety of consumer level aftermarket oil additives, as an extreme pressure additive, but it has several potential problems. Chlorinated Paraffins do have the characteristic of providing increased shear in fluids, such as motor oil, but the potential problems when used in motor oil, as an extreme pressure additive, should be noted.

Exposed to heat, Chlorinated Paraffins can produce waxy residues as well as Chlorine based by-products, which are known to decompose some soft metals, such as are used in many babbitt bearing surfaces (facing of the bearing surface of a bearing used on a crankshaft and/or connecting rods of a modern engine for example).

"Of greater concern, Chlorinated Paraffins are carcinogenic (classified “group 2B” as potentially carcinogenic to humans). It has also been known for years that Chlorinated Paraffins are highly toxic to aquatic organisms (fish) and are classified as “persistent” and their physical properties suggest the potential for bioaccumulation (meaning they can accumulate in living organisms over time)."

On the other hand PFTEs (Polytetrafluoroethylene) have their own problems.

PTFE is a fluorocarbon solid, which is best known by its brand-name of Teflon™, and is a product currently marketed by the Dupont Corporation. PTFE as used in some aftermarket oil additives and is marketed on the idea of its slickness, such as its used in the oil additive brand “Slick50”, for example, as well as a number of other aftermarket oil additive products. PTFEs are insoluble in a liquid, but when compressed between two metal surfaces, do exhibit reduced friction, but PTFEs can be problematic when used in motor oil.

Because PTFEs are insoluble in oil, they remain free particles that can contaminate or even plug oil filters in extreme conditions. With many new engine designs, which are manufactured on extremely low build tolerances, PTFEs can also restrict oil flow, leading to inadequate oil supplies to various areas of an engine*.

*In the late 1990s, a family making their first trip in a brand new Piper aircraft, had their engine quit while flying over the western edge of Yellowstone National Park. They safely made an emergency dead-stick landing on a US Forest Service road and it was later determined their engine seized due to oil starvation. This was because the high PTFE content oil additive installed by the Piper Aircraft dealer, had plugged several oil passages. The family successfully sued the Piper dealership and the aftermarket oil additive blender.

Also of concern are that PTFEs, despite having a high melting point of 662° F, do have detectable pyrolysis (decomposing) that can be measured at temperatures as low as 392° F, followed by the release of fluorocarbon gases, which in turn are harmful to some engine components, including catalytic converters.

Polytetrafluoroethylene or PTFEs do have many valuable uses, especially as sealants or coatings, such as they were first used in 1942 on the Manhattan Project to coat the accelerator chambers, chambers which separated the heavy uranium 235 atom from the lighter uranium atom chain at the Oak Ridge Facility in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Its most common use, as everyone obviously knowns, is as a coating on cooking pans.

The use of PTFE as a friction modifier additive, in motor oil, is simply too problematic, especially considering there are many alternatives that are far more effective, without all of the restrictive conditions that PTFE creates. I am also aware that testing by NASA and by labs at several U.S. Universities would tend to support this. In most cases, PTFEs in motor oil is simply a marketing “gimmick” used in oil additive products intended for the general consumer.

I have worked with (that's with, not for) one particular petro-chemical aftermarket company who's engineers would NEVER use any of these products (Clorinated paraffins or PTFEs) in ANY of their oil additives. Unfortunately, the company I'm speaking about doesn't offer any general consumer level products (they are exclusive to OEMs, commercial/industrial, and government fleets ONLY)