Stupid Airport mm-wave Scanners

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Originally Posted By: Ojustracing
Went through the full body scanner in Denver and had put my ID in my front pants pocket instead of over my head. Guy with the Ear mic gives me a [censored] whats in your left front pocket. Oh my Driver license. I guess those scanners think a DL is a possible terrorist threat. Also while leaving Albany Airport they were using this test strip that they would put over open beverages to check for what I assume is explosives.


Not really...at that resolution, the scanner shows that you have something hidden...and they asked you to empty your pockets, which, clearly, you did not do...

I see this kind of thing happen all the time to folks who are not familiar with the technology or process. Empty your pockets means just that...remove your outer garment means just that...follow their directions precisely, and you'll get a more friendly reaction...

And similar rules are applied in every country to which I have traveled. Some are far worse than the US in the politeness of their screeners and the rigor of their inspections.

If you've ever worked security or law enforcement, or had to work within ROE in combat, in which you face potential threats every hour of every day, you would be more sympathetic to the security guys/gals who have no idea if you're a threat or not. All they know at that moment is that you have something hidden...

The standard by which to judge their actions is not based on your understanding of your situation, but on the facts that are available to them at the time.
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT

And if/when it does, they're certainly have the system in place to enact martial law. Infinitely more so than they have in Greece or Italy.

if..if...if...if... ad-nausium.

You might have forgotten the fact that U.S. citizens are armed to the hilt. 'They' don't have the manpower to enforce it. And there is the minor thing like the Constitution. Even the Lefties wouldn't go along with it.

Cops/military won't/can't enforce it. It over the top silly.

No-one wil:
1. Take my guns
2. Come into house and try to enforce martial law.

Don't worry. us old guys will protect y ou.
smile.gif




Al: i read your previous post and told myself im going to finish this thread before i post, then i read this one and i cant contain myself. You and i obviously think along the same lines. To the OP: getting on a plane and flying is completely voluntary, if you dont want to be subjected to security procedures, dont go to the airport. I for one am completely happy that there are more stringent security measures in place to help keep me and mine safer while flying, sure i have to undergo a search, BUT SO DOES THE BAD-GUY..this is obviously a deterant, Folks you have no idea (the goverment doesnt want you scared to fly) how many persons of intrest are detained in air hubs.. \ I hear people screaming about profile, profile, profile.. What most dont get is you dont have to be middle eastern to be a terrorist. These groups convert and train all nationalities, races,sexes,AND AGES (to include kids) (fact).. so forget profileing. You and i do have fourth ammendment rights, but guess what.. you are the one wanting to go get on a plane (small confined area that you cant just step off of) full of other people for a set (approx) time frame. When they (government) wants to come to your home and screen you and go through you things before you fly, then you have a REAL complaint. and thats a REAL 4th deal breaker.

Now, I understand those people that live in a bubble, they want to pretend we still live in the 50's and there is no real threat on our shores.. guess what ? your dead wrong. Im a hard core believer in the 2nd and 4th ammendments, we should count ourselves lucky the framers of this country were wise. Your not going to take my guns, but if i want to take my family to disney, im more than happy to undergo security procedures that will help insure my familys safety..

Im human, I will agree some TSA agents need to undergo better training.. no question.

AL: im a early-middle aged guy and im with you..
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Shannow said:
Well your presumption of "Unreasonable search" is not shared by the Courts so therefore your conclusion is false. (except to you)


The above statement requires a major assumption. That the high courts are "always" right and always follow the US Constitution.

'Tis not always the case. FDR was the first to work on "stacking" the courts, to get his, clearly unconstitutional, way.
 
c-mon, this is pretty cut and dry, you buy a ticket, you go to the airport, you get searched (one form or another) you get on the plane and go.. as others have stated, if you feel the search is unreasonable, you can turn around and walk away. what part of that is unreasonable ?
 
Originally Posted By: OtisBlkR1
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT

And if/when it does, they're certainly have the system in place to enact martial law. Infinitely more so than they have in Greece or Italy.

if..if...if...if... ad-nausium.

You might have forgotten the fact that U.S. citizens are armed to the hilt. 'They' don't have the manpower to enforce it. And there is the minor thing like the Constitution. Even the Lefties wouldn't go along with it.

Cops/military won't/can't enforce it. It over the top silly.

No-one wil:
1. Take my guns
2. Come into house and try to enforce martial law.

Don't worry. us old guys will protect y ou.
smile.gif




Al: i read your previous post and told myself im going to finish this thread before i post, then i read this one and i cant contain myself. You and i obviously think along the same lines. To the OP: getting on a plane and flying is completely voluntary, if you dont want to be subjected to security procedures, dont go to the airport. I for one am completely happy that there are more stringent security measures in place to help keep me and mine safer while flying, sure i have to undergo a search, BUT SO DOES THE BAD-GUY..this is obviously a deterant, Folks you have no idea (the goverment doesnt want you scared to fly) how many persons of intrest are detained in air hubs.. \ I hear people screaming about profile, profile, profile.. What most dont get is you dont have to be middle eastern to be a terrorist. These groups convert and train all nationalities, races,sexes,AND AGES (to include kids) (fact).. so forget profileing. You and i do have fourth ammendment rights, but guess what.. you are the one wanting to go get on a plane (small confined area that you cant just step off of) full of other people for a set (approx) time frame. When they (government) wants to come to your home and screen you and go through you things before you fly, then you have a REAL complaint. and thats a REAL 4th deal breaker.

Now, I understand those people that live in a bubble, they want to pretend we still live in the 50's and there is no real threat on our shores.. guess what ? your dead wrong. Im a hard core believer in the 2nd and 4th ammendments, we should count ourselves lucky the framers of this country were wise. Your not going to take my guns, but if i want to take my family to disney, im more than happy to undergo security procedures that will help insure my familys safety..

Im human, I will agree some TSA agents need to undergo better training.. no question.

AL: im a early-middle aged guy and im with you..


So I guess you didnt read my OP.

Anything against stringent screening? Nope. Anything against deterrants? nope. Did I say I wasnt going to volunteer to fly? nope. Did I say that I was afraid of the radiation due to being higher in the atmosphere? nope.

The issue is this: While we do indeed understand lots about radiation, there is much that we do not understand about differences in the genome and amongst different phenotypes amongst seemingly similar humans, what happens and why things happen, even with well-studied radiation types. We have a choice to accept that by flying, or not by staying at lower altitude. We have the choice to accept substantial searches at the airport or not. But we do not necessarily fully understand mm wave. It has not been used in applications like this for very long.

Further, go to an airport, and only some of the paths have mm wave scanners - others dont. If someone was actually going to sneak something in, dont you think they would avoid certain lines?

So you go in one line, same old. Go in another, mm wave. No rhyme or reason. Then, some have mm wave and metal detector right next to each other (like where two lines converge to one checkpoint). People on one side go through the detector, people on the other side go throguh the mm wave. Ask to bypass mm wave? Well then youre automatically a criminal. And the patdown has gotten worse.

Forget the fact that the VAST MAJORITY of people are still going through the non-mm wave detector system. Yeah, I feel real safe because it is there in some limited roll-out.

So its implementation is stupid, its existence may well be stupid (passive variants exist), its effects on O-bond resonances which are present in genomic proteins is not well understood, and on and on.

For a selective instrument that could be so easily bypassed by people of interest, it sure is lousy to be double-irradiated selectively and then treated like a criminal because of the criminal implementation of this device.

Im all for strict security. But I'd prefer making everyone change into a tyvek suit and have zero carry-ons to being selectively irradiated or mistreated because of the stupidity of the setup.
 
I understand...and believe me, I share many of your frustrations...and I frequently refer to airport security as "stupid" as well...out of those frustrations...
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: Al
Shannow said:
Well your presumption of "Unreasonable search" is not shared by the Courts so therefore your conclusion is false. (except to you)


The above statement requires a major assumption. That the high courts are "always" right and always follow the US Constitution.

'Tis not always the case. FDR was the first to work on "stacking" the courts, to get his, clearly unconstitutional, way.


Exactly and also Al is under the impression that just because his local police have never acted unreasonable or overstepped their bounds with him personally that it doesn't happen. Law enforcement does and has overstepped. And it's always first presented in a reasonable way in the name of security. That's just the camel geting its nose under the tent.
 
LOL, well theres money to be made with your ideas i suppose, im not as well informed as you are on the particulares of the devices used durring screening, obviously from my post im more "security" minded.. if alternative means of screening that are equally effective can be had. Im ok with that. I just want the security.
 
Originally Posted By: OtisBlkR1
c-mon, this is pretty cut and dry, you buy a ticket, you go to the airport, you get searched (one form or another) you get on the plane and go.. as others have stated, if you feel the search is unreasonable, you can turn around and walk away. what part of that is unreasonable ?


Because you can't turn around and walk away once the screening process has started (if you don't like it, for example). Believe it or not, doing so is against the unpublished rules. You will be arrested for doing so.
 
so if your afraid of the screening process again, dont fly.. If you do proceed and feel some part of the screening process was uncalled for, ask for a supervisor and report it. Its all (YOUR) perception..
 
Originally Posted By: OtisBlkR1
so if your afraid of the screening process again, dont fly.. If you do proceed and feel some part of the screening process was uncalled for, ask for a supervisor and report it. Its all (YOUR) perception..


So, when the screener stuck her hand up my 12 year old daughters skirt, I should have clearly found a supervisor and said "that's inappropriate". I'm here to tell you, when things like this happen, it makes you steaming-red-hot-pi(you can guess the rest). That would not have gone well for anybody. And, it's designed this way. So, you "can't" speak out, no matter how grievous the violation. Sorry, but the TSA, their methods, practices and procedures are engineered to keep you in line. You are not allowed to protest their actions. Don't believe me? I work at the airport, I should know. You would not believe what I see.

I deal with them regularly. I've kept my composure and the worst I've done is call them "worthless". That was a mistake...

Sorry, but the flying public is ill informed as to what really goes on.
 
In addition, I was in Venice airport on Monday. The local flight school was training some folks who clearly came from the middle East. They were in the air, struggling to talk on the radio. (yes, I had some fun saying things about Achmed to my passenger). But after landing, they were wandering the airport, ALONE. One of the student pilots was in a CHEAP Captains uniform, disheveled, and looking exactly like the pictures in our training manual "look out for this guy" examples.

If it's not clear to you guys yet, the threat from regular Americans is so minor, statistically, it should be dismissed.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Sorry, but the TSA, their methods, practices and procedures are engineered to keep you in line. You are not allowed to protest their actions. Don't believe me? I work at the airport, I should know. You would not believe what I see.

I deal with them regularly. I've kept my composure and the worst I've done is call them "worthless". That was a mistake...

Sorry, but the flying public is ill informed as to what really goes on.


Agree 100%
 
Originally Posted By: OtisBlkR1
so if your afraid of the screening process again, dont fly.. If you do proceed and feel some part of the screening process was uncalled for, ask for a supervisor and report it. Its all (YOUR) perception..


Who said anyone was "afraid" of the screening process? And I do feel that the mm wave is uncalled for in many/most situations. I am afraid of knee-jerk implementation of radiation when we dont know all the ramifications of its use.

So re-read. Its all about the selective nature of where the mm-wave is and ability to be easily bypassed... But get into the one line, and then you get irradiated and if you deny it (because the people right next to you are only going through a detector and it is perfectly acceptable to all, including TSA) then youre a criminal and have to be severely searched, felt up, etc.

That's right, sheeple, get in line for your irradiation and be happy because youre safe. Whats that other line of folks going through a different screening process??? Please ignore the people on the other side of the partition - nothing to be seen there. Reminds me of the Wizard of Oz.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
In addition, I was in Venice airport on Monday. The local flight school was training some folks who clearly came from the middle East. They were in the air, struggling to talk on the radio. (yes, I had some fun saying things about Achmed to my passenger). But after landing, they were wandering the airport, ALONE. One of the student pilots was in a CHEAP Captains uniform, disheveled, and looking exactly like the pictures in our training manual "look out for this guy" examples.

If it's not clear to you guys yet, the threat from regular Americans is so minor, statistically, it should be dismissed.


Exactly. I believe the security is part dog and pony show to make Americans think security is being delivered and more of just stepping on ordinary Americans. We know who the likely terrorist are but we must treat them with kid gloves and pretend and treat everyone else as a potential terrorist. You know because if we don't scrutinize little girls or old grandmas from Iowa they might just see an opening to smuggle bombs on planes like they were doing before all the screening.
 
Im a 15 year veteran of multiple state and now goverment law enforcement agency's. If there is something hanky going on there is ALWAYS someone to report it to. I understand your offended but are you familiar with pat searches ? what they include ? how they are performed ? google it. I was'nt there to observe what happend and you may very well be right that something wasnt being done correctly.. Airports are full of cameras, TSA supervisors are at hand. If your convictions that what the officer done was a violation of standard proceedure then you should seek action.
 
Originally Posted By: OtisBlkR1
If your convictions that what the officer done was a violation of standard proceedure then you should seek action.


Many of us feel that the "standard procedures" today are a violation.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: OtisBlkR1
If your convictions that what the officer done was a violation of standard proceedure then you should seek action.


Many of us feel that the "standard procedures" today are a violation.



But didn't someone else in this thread say it doesn't matter how the majority defines what is a violation, only what the Supreme Court defines it as
crazy.gif
. That's some circular reasoning right there. That's what I call the fox guarding the hen house.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: bigmike
Apparently, unreasonable searches are allowable as long as you choose to undergo them.

I see your logic now!

Give me a break.


I hope so...if you chose to undergo it...by definition it is not unreasonable (in the Constitutional/Bill of Rights sense...)...you may not like it, but that doesn't make it an "unreasonable search" because you can choose to avoid it. You have the choice, ergo, you retain the right not to be subjected to it.

Look, I have flown over 800,000 miles as a paying passenger, and I am presently employed as a pilot by United Airlines, so I've been through security literally thousands of times...more than almost anyone...

It should be pretty clear from my other posts, that I don't like it either, but that's personal opinion, not a legal position....and I certainly can't petition to change the law on the basis of my dislike.

And I recognize the need to screen passengers...again, more than most...



As a person in education fields and a CCW permit owner, I've undergone a great deal of "voluntary" checks by the FBI and FDLE. I don't see the need to have my body scanned. Along those same lines, I don't see the need to have anyone's body scanned. Make alternative measures of safety instead of passive measures. The argument could be made that scanners are not passive, but I'll forgo that argument and assume scanning is a passive measure.

I'll choose not to fly until then. Hopefully, many others will do the same and eventually break the system. That's when change will occur.

I would have to question that someone such as yourself and your flying experience as to why you would need to be scanned and/or searched every time you fly. Why would you need to undergo this process when it has been clearly demonstrated that you pose no threat to the general public?

I, as a person, will always assume that people are peaceable until proven otherwise. It's not a naive view, but rather one that has proven to work well in my experience. Speak softly and carry a big stick.
 
Yeah, Big Mike, I was not going to bring my situation up again...you're right, I don't see the point of screening me...

Ignoring for a moment that I have spent over 17 years on Active Duty and hold a TS clearance...I fly the plane...so, I am screened to preclude my carrying any articles that would allow me to gain control of an aircraft. Then, right after that screening, I am allowed to have control of an aircraft...so...whether I have a flamethrower...or 6 oz. of shaving cream, I will get control of an airplane.

OBTW, I am a supporter of the trusted traveler program. Background check folks...at their request by the way...and once they're cleared, minimize the security screening for them...
 
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