As to all the discussion about MMO

[Mystic]

Any person reading these posts can observe that I am not resorting to insults and merely stating the facts. You Trajan and d00df00d yourselves keep talking about a higher standard of proof being required.

It is a FACT that several people here have come forward and stated that using MMO benefited them in some way. They noticed a reduction in lifter noise after using MMO or in the case of one person he said that he had actually disassembled engines and observed apparent cleaning in the engine interiors. Any person can go over these posts and see for themselves the statements made by these people. We are not talking about just one person. It seems to me that we have to consider the statements of these people as possible evidence that MMO might work.

You talk about the evidence in MMO land as not being adequate. I don't think the evidence for most other oil supplements here are any stronger than for MMO. It was a long time ago but it seems to me the testing of Auto-RX consisted of a test in an old lawnmower engine. A guy here talked about disassembling engines and observing apparent cleaning having taken place after MMO was used. Is that any less evidence than the testing of Auto-RX in a lawnmower engine?

And unless we have some sort of testing of MMO that everybody here can agree is an adequate level of testing, the evidence for and against most of these oil supplements consists of the statements made by the people who have tried the oil supplements. I was a big Auto-RX supporter myself for a long time. It seemed to stop a seal leak in a car I used to own. I waited for it seemed like forever for somebody to actually produce some sort of acceptable evidence that Auto-RX actually cleaned the interior of engines. Unless I missed the post I never saw any convincing evidence (convincing to me) for Auto-RX actually cleaning the interior of engines.

If you know what level of testing proof is required it seems to me you could do the testing. Find one or more vehicles with lifter noise. Find one or more vehicles with sludged up engines. MMO itself is inexpensive. Maybe people you know who have cars or trucks with noisy lifters or sludged up engines would be willing to volunteer their vehicles for the testing.

I have not insulted anybody. I have stated the FACTS. It is a FACT that several people claim they were benefitted in some way by using MMO. It is a FACT that you and d00df00d have talked about the need for a higher level of proof.

 

[d00df00d]

I'm not so sure, Trajan.

Mystic's post reflects odd definitions of science and the burden of proof, but also suggests that he DOES value evidence. I'm not particularly inclined to spend time dispelling those misconceptions (maybe sometime later), but I'm starting to suspect they are central to this disagreement we've been having. Again, it's a matter of substance, not form.

 

[d00df00d]

By the way, if anyone is waiting for me to make a point-by-point response to Mystic's two most recent long posts, don't hold your breath. After a few readings of each one, I'm pretty sure almost everything of substance has been beaten to death already. I might revisit it later if anyone else cares.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: AlienBug
It just seems MMO is held to a far higher standard than any other product on BITOG.

Does anyone pounce when posters report that changing oil brands made their engine "feel" smoother. Or that it "seems" to have quieted the lifters?

Or that changing brands of gas made the car "feel" peppier?

Or how about the universally unchallenged "The manufacturer recommends XX,XXX mile oil changes, but I don't 'feel' comfortable with that."

Or "the manufacturer recommends 5-20 oil, but I 'feel' that's just for CAFE...

All of those comments are commonplace on BITOG and none result in endless demands for notarized, peer reviewed scientific studies.


LOL, this is very true. On the other hand, if one goes ahead and does some experimentation, the BITOG crowd jumps and attacks that person about said study being non-scientific enough, just like if BITOG was a high impact peer-review journal.

Full disclosure: I did MMO piston soaks twice and both times oil consumption stopped for a limited time. No, I did not do a "sham" piston soak for control.

 

[Mystic]

I took a year of college chemistry, a year of college physics, numerous geology classes, and math classes. So I know a thing or two about science. Science is advanced by evidence, and not assumptions. When country folk told the scientists about rocks falling from the sky, the scientists ASSUMED the country folks did not know what they were talking about.

It is true that we just have statements from people here about MMO actually working. Certainly it would be of benefit to have before and after photographs, compression testing, etc. But for now what we have is several people coming forward and saying that they noticed a reduction in lifter noise, or engine interiors appeared to be cleaner.

It is not science to ASSUME all of these people are mistaken or wrong or lying. If enough people are saying something ('there are rocks falling from the sky') the true scientist should be willing to do some FIELD RESEARCH. The point I was trying to make earier was that scientists often make a lot of ASSUMPTIONS that get them in trouble. Like assuming that the country folk seeing rocks fall form the sky have to be wrong, because logically rocks cannot from from the sky. And the scientists thinking that continental drift simply cannot be correct because such a concept was 'illogical.' No matter how strange something might seem, or how unlikely something might seem, if enough people report something perhaps there should be a scientiftic investigation. Not too long ago there was a 'red rain' in a city in India. People now believe that comets burning up in the atmosphere might be causing things like this. A large number of people observed the 'rain rain.' Once again, if a large number of people observe something, we can't ASSUME they are all wrong because we KNOW that such a thing is not possible. A large number of people observing something is EVIDENCE! Instead of making assumptions from a higher authority we need to do some field research. That is science. Science is not assuming we already know everything and therefore rocks cannot fall from the sky, continents cannot move, and there cannot be red rains!

 

[Mystic]

Just a correction-people believe that fragments of a comet may have caused the red rain. If a comet hit the atmosphere of the Earth there would probably be a huge explosion. A comet or an asteriod is believed to have caused the explosion in Siberia in the early 20th century. The red rain may have been caused by fragments from a comet or a small asteroid.

Also, if a large number of people saw a crime being committed, their testimony in court would be considered as evidence. Well, if only one person was talking about MMO we could probably ignore what they said. Since a large number of people have talked about benefits, that is EVIDENCE. It may not be evidence meeting some higher standard of proof, but it is still evidence.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I'm not so sure, Trajan.

Mystic's post reflects odd definitions of science and the burden of proof, but also suggests that he DOES value evidence. I'm not particularly inclined to spend time dispelling those misconceptions (maybe sometime later), but I'm starting to suspect they are central to this disagreement we've been having. Again, it's a matter of substance, not form.


That could be. But I'm struck by, (or stuck on?), the deflection of constantly bringing up of "expensive lab testing." Still don't know where it came from.

I'm old. I'm tired. I think this boils down to a very basic level. That you, I, and others are skeptical of claims backed by nothing beyond being posted.

And it is not welcome.

As you noted above: "The people making the evidence-free claims don't try to defend those claims or accuse their critics of being haters/chauvinists/etc."

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
By the way, if anyone is waiting for me to make a point-by-point response to Mystic's two most recent long posts, don't hold your breath. After a few readings of each one, I'm pretty sure almost everything of substance has been beaten to death already. I might revisit it later if anyone else cares.


Probably fruitless. I'll read it though.

 

[Mystic]

Trajan, if several people stating in posts that they have obtained benefits from using MMO are not good enough for you, and if some sort of lab test is unrealistic or not possible, you will have to tell everybody what you would consider an adequate testing of MMO (or any other oil supplement here). And also let us know what sort of credentials the person(people) doing the testing would have to met. For example, would they have to have mechanical engineering degrees?

A large number of people stating that they had benefits from using MMO, such as reduction in lifter wear or a cleaner interior engine, is still evidence, even if it does not meet some higher standard of proof. If a large number of people observed a crime scene, their testimony would be presented in court. Sure, there would also be DNA testing presented and video evidence from any video cameras that may have been present, etc. But the testimony of the witnesses would still be presented. Everybody here knows that. And I think you do also.

I rest my case.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
A large number of people stating that they had benefits from using MMO, such as reduction in lifter wear or a cleaner interior engine, is still evidence, even if it does not meet some higher standard of proof.

Heck no! It has to be tested, data compiled, peer reviewed on and on and on, then it maybe accepted as plausible but needs further testing if its something they (no one in particular) don't agree with or simple fact if it something they would like to see proven.

I have 3 words for this..
Hockey Stick Graph.

There are lies, dam lies and then there are statistics and IMHO by default so called facts.
After working in a field for over 20 years that dealt only with "facts and evidence" i have seen with my own eyes there is no fact, no statistic and no evidence that cannot be fudged, changed or manipulated to meet the required or desired outcome.

I am not saying or implying science and testing is worthless, it certainly isn't but at the end of the day it comes down to the human element and that is the key.
I can test or review any product and come out with any result you want, anytime or every time with data and pictorial evidence to back it up. I worked in an industry that did this daily for over a decade.
So even with all the testing done and all the data compiled it comes down to my character. Am i an honest person who did the testing objectively or did i manipulate it to meet my desired outcome?

Given the main ingredients in MMO and their known properties can it do what some posters claim?
Can i be relatively confident that it wont damage the engine?
I believe the answer to both is yes.
When i buy paint remover i am confident it will remove paint if the chemical being used has already proven that it does no matter if its been scented or turned into a gel.
On the other hand if someone came up with a new chemical concoction that hasn't been used and has no track record then sure the more testing the better.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: keesue
Cognitive psychology indeed...


I'm still laughing at the professor's comments.

 

[Mystic]

I agree with you that statistics can be made to lie (people do this all the time nowadays) and also I agree that if MMO (or any other oil supplement discussed here) was tested by somebody or a group of people we would need to be sure that there was no bias on the part of the people doing the testing.

Having served on two juries, one a murder case and the other a contraband case, I think I have some clue about what is evidence. I am not an attorney, but I have a pretty good idea about evidence. Now sure, evidence has to be peer reviewed and all of that in science. But for now, unless and until eyewitness testimony concerning MMO is scientifically studied, all we mainly have is eyewitness testimony. A person can go to prison based on such evidence.

I am starting to wonder, and this question needs to be put to d00df00d, if this might be some sort of material for some college or university class somewhere. Back in the days when I went to college this discussion would have ended long ago.

What do we have? We have eyewitness testimony from some people that they have obtained positive results from using MMO. We also, by the way, have some negative material also. For example, a story about an aircraft engine being ruined by excessive use of MMO.

A few people here are demanding a higher level of proof that MMO actually works. If a decision was actually made for somebody to do such testing, there would have to be agreement as to who did the testing, what their credentials need to be, how detailed the testing would have to be to generate proof one way or the other, and how that testing was 'peer reviewed' to make sure it was accurate and not biased. Unless somebody with the proper level of training and experience decided to do this testing on their own, I doubt it will happen.

A larger question needs to be asked. Why are we having this discussion anyway? I personally like to read the posts about various oil supplements and if I get interested in one I might give it a try. I don't really see anybody demanding a higher level of proof from any other oil supplement here. Why is that? If anybody here has such a strong dislike for the MMO discussions that take place here, they certainly do not need to become involved with such discussions.

There have been discussions about various oil supplements here for a long time. That is what this Oil Additives section is for. Sometimes a guy may present photographs or talk about compression testing or whatever. Occasionally somebody has tried to do more detailed testing on their own.

Now if such more detailed study ever actually took place, I would be all for that. I kept waiting for somebody to do a good test of Auto-RX. It would make the Oil Additives section (or a specialized section if they decided to go that way) more interesting.

Without such more detailed testing it is likely there will be discussions here about various oil supplements just as there always have been. People will tell their stories about what results they obtained with some oil supplement they tried. If a certain individual here is always being challenged we have to ask the question-why?

 

[Mystic]

I am still laughing at that post also, demarpaint. That was a good one-'Conitive psychology indeed...' That is one of the best posts yet. It was brief but it made the point.

 

[Bayman]

You guys are hard core, which is fine, does every oil additive that comes up here on this Forum get debated to the extent that MMO has in this thread, or am I missing something.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Bayman
You guys are hard core, which is fine, does every oil additive that comes up here on this Forum get debated to the extent that MMO has in this thread, or am I missing something.


It's more about how people would prefer that claims, no matter how unlikely, (ex. 1st post "I got 2mpg more with MMO."
2nd post "Good report!!!.), not be questioned or challanged.
IMHO anyway.

 

[Trav]

You should have been here when ARX was the best product ever around here.
The dust up after it was revealed that posters had been paid for good reviews was priceless.

You are right, all this theater over a 5 dollar bottle of MMO is really over the top.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Bayman
You guys are hard core, which is fine, does every oil additive that comes up here on this Forum get debated to the extent that MMO has in this thread, or am I missing something.


Lately its been MMO in the hot seat. A-Rx was a while back, along with a few others.

Until we get a data, pictures, and testing section, or the Moderators get tired of this thread it will go on and on I think.

 

[Bill in Utah]

I think everyone had had their say(over and over). Time for it to end since some have resulted in name calling and such.

Bill