PP 5w30 / 8,400 miles / 2005 Acura TSX (K24)

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Just want to start off by saying that I'm a long time reader and first time poster... from all the posts I've read, I know that there are some really knowledgeable people on here and I'm confident that I'll get some of that knowledgeable feedback from you guys...

Since before I started driving, I was already an auto enthusiast, and like my father have always performed all maintenance/modifications to my own vehicles. I consider myself a spirited driver, but at the same time, I try to baby my cars as much as possible, and am meticulous about their maintenance.

I Just Recently hit 100k miles, and decided to have a used oil analysis performed on my 2005 Acura TSX 6 speed manual with a Honda 2.4L (K24). The car doesn't burn a drop of oil, and runs as good if not better than the day I bought it brand new. The car is driven 60% highway and 40% street. When on the highway, I try to use my cruise control whenever possible set to a speed of anywhere between 70-85mph (85mph = 3,500 RPM). I only redline the car maybe twice a week (only in 3rd and 4th gears) when exiting a toll booth
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The car does have some modifications, noteworthy to the UOA would be a K&N OEM replacement air filter, and a Hondata reflashed ECU.

Oil changes between 5k – 45k miles were with Castrol Syntec Blend 5w30 and Purolator PureOne filter performed religiously every 5k miles.

Oil Changes between 50k – present have been with Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 and Purolator PureOne filter on an average of every 7.5k miles.

Blackstone’s comments: Lead was slightly high in your Honda’s fist sample, but we wouldn’t get too bent out of shape about it. Our universal averages show typical wear for this type of engine after ~6,700 miles oil use, and since your oil run was longer than that, most wear looks great. Lead is high by just 4 ppm, so we won’t worry unless it goes higher from here. The slightly low viscosity probably isn’t a problem either, since we didn’t find any contamination. The TBN is still good at 3.1 (1.0 is too low) so we’d say this oil can go longer. We bet you could go for 10,000 miles next time.

I guess my concerns are:
-Lead being slightly higher than their universal averages
-Slightly low viscosity (shearing)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated…

Code:
OIL PP5w30

Oil FILTER PureOne

Air Filter K&N

Oil Added 0 Qts

MILES IN USE 8,400

TOTAL MILES 100,609 Universal

SAMPLE TAKEN 09/12/11 Averages:



ALUMINUM 2 3

CHROMIUM 0 0

IRON 6 9

COPPER 1 4

LEAD 6 2

TIN 1 1

MOLYBDENUM 47 77

NICKEL 0 0

MANGANESE 0 2

SILVER 0 0

TITANIUM 0 0

POTASSIUM 3 2

BORON 4 52

SILICON 12 12

SODIUM 6 36

CALCIUM 2263 2322

MAGNESIUM 7 34

PHOSPHORUS 624 677

ZINC 746 814

BARIUM 0 0

__________________________________________

Values

Should be:



SUS VIS 210ºF 55.4 56-63

cSt @ 100ºC 8.90 9.1-11.3

FLASHPOINT ºF 415 >365

Fuel %
Antifreeze % 0.0 0.0

Water % 0.0
Insolubles % 0.2
TBN 3.1
 
First off welcome to BITOG. Secondly, besides the slight shearing I don't think you can get much better than that. PP is a true solid performer, you can feel comfortable taking this oil out to 10k if you want. I would not worry about the lead at all.

Great wearing engine!


Matt

PS: Sorry if my comments mimicked B_S's. I did not read their take until after I posted. I didn't change anything because I agree with them. Take Care!
 
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This is a nice UOA. 6ppm of Pb/8400mi is not a worry. Shearing to a high 20wt is not unusual. If you want to try something different, being in FL, you could step up to PP 10w30, or Castrol Syntec 0w30 (GC), or M1 0w40
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. It appears that any of these oils would be good for 10k in your engine/driving conditions.
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to BITOG
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Every Honda I have ever owned showed high lead in the UOAs. They still had perfect compression and ran beautifully when I sold them.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
Every Honda I have ever owned showed high lead in the UOAs. They still had perfect compression and ran beautifully when I sold them.


Strange, I own two 2007 Hondas with 100k+ and have personally sampled and tested 3 more of varies years and NONE of them showed any iron in the UOA. Zero.

OCI's ranged from 5-10k miles and one even ran used recycled oil from another car for an additional 7,000 and that car (very similar model K24 engine with 200,000 miles) showed zero iron after 10,000 miles on the oil.

I'm not saying the OP has a problem with his engine but more UOAs are needed to determine if this is an issue or just a weird particle streak.
 
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: dparm
Every Honda I have ever owned showed high lead in the UOAs. They still had perfect compression and ran beautifully when I sold them.


Strange, I own two 2007 Hondas with 100k+ and have personally sampled and tested 3 more of varies years and NONE of them showed any iron in the UOA. Zero.

OCI's ranged from 5-10k miles and one even ran used recycled oil from another car for an additional 7,000 and that car (very similar model K24 engine with 200,000 miles) showed zero iron after 10,000 miles on the oil.

I'm not saying the OP has a problem with his engine but more UOAs are needed to determine if this is an issue or just a weird particle streak.


Hey Artem, I think you meant that you showed no lead vs. what you stated (no iron).
wink.gif


I have an almost identical UOA on my '08 Si running PP 5W-30 though mine probably took a lot longer to get the miles on it than yours did and my engine has quite a bit fewer miles on it but numbers are almost identical Most recent UOA for '08 Civic Si (K20Z3)

The lead has caused me to question things also. I've seen some folks claim that certain kinds of oils or add packs can make a little lead show up that doesn't mean anything (would like a better explanation as to this theory) in which case it could be a totally false alarm. I've considered the fact that I can take my engine an additional 400 RPM above the stock K20Z3 cutoff of 8200 RPM as a possible source but then guys like Artem do this WAY more than I do and show no lead so that kind of shoots a hole in that theory.

Where I'm at right now is that I've started doing some datalogging with my Hondata Flashpro to see if there is any knocking going on that might be hitting the bearings harder than normal. I datalogged with my laptop open for a 160 mile drive on Friday and tried to put the engine through the paces and found that I can get knocks under certain conditions. Nothing audible at all, just detectible by the engine's knock sensor. It turns out that these areas are where I don't drive that often are showing some knocking (80+ kPa between 1300 and 2000 RPM, with an occasional knock being detected in the 2000-3000 RPM range) which makes me wonder if the lead is the result of some very mild knocking due to my tuning. Perhaps the winter fuel I tuned on was on the higher side of the posted 91 octane that I buy and resulted in a little more aggressive timing being possible when I was being custom tuned on the dyno and since then the average octane has been lower, making the tuning too aggressive.

I'm going to work this out over the next few weeks by studying my datalogs and making some adjustments to the timing and repeating my tests until all knock is gone. Then I will pull an oil sample for analysis to see if it's in line with what I've been seeing. I'll keep the same oil in until it's done (~8000-9000 miles is where I'm comfortable at so far) and pull a sample and see if the lead trending is consistent or has dropped.

Another possibility is that the engine is being wound up before the oil is fully warmed up. It can take a few minutes longer for the oil to hit operating temp in comparison to the coolant and the oil might not have thinned completely and have a harder time flowing through bearings correctly. Other than that I'm out of ideas.
 
I appreciate all the info and opinions...

After thinking about it some more, and seeing a few UOA's on other Honda K24's, I think this is a great report, especially considering that the car has 100k miles.

All other UOA's I saw for the K24 showed more wear, even with much less miles on the OCI and engine. Additionally, all appeared to show signs of some shearing.

I'm thinking that factors contributing to the slight shearing are 1)DOHC design of motor, and 2)relatively high RPM on the highway which is about 60% of use (as previously mentioned, I often have the cruise set at 80mph+)

OrdnanceMarine: I too can run the RPM's out 500 more than the factory redline (thanks to the Hondata reflash), but as I mentioned, I rarely do that... baybe twice a week. overall, this engine is babied except for maybe the high constant highway speeds of my work commute.

Although the Lead is just slightly high (according to Blackstone's universal averages anyway), I really believe that it's nothing to be concerned about. I think I'm going to stay with PP5w30 with OCI's performed between 7,500 - 8,500 miles as long as I don't begin to see oil consumption. Should I see signs of oil consumption, I might try GC0w30 as the viscosity is said to be slightly higher.
 
I have done 4 oil analysis on my son's 06 Acura. His always had 5/6 ppm of iron and about 1 ppm PB. But oil sheared down to about an average of 8,4.

My Nissan Sentra SR20DE always spit about lead numbers above 5ppm. It is now 11 years old and has 116K miles.

No problem IMHO here.
 
Originally Posted By: OrdnanceMarine


Hey Artem, I think you meant that you showed no lead vs. what you stated (no iron).
wink.gif


I have an almost identical UOA on my '08 Si running PP 5W-30 though mine probably took a lot longer to get the miles on it than yours did and my engine has quite a bit fewer miles on it but numbers are almost identical Most recent UOA for '08 Civic Si (K20Z3)


Having looked at your recent reports, i was just about to say that maybe the slight shearing is causing the extra wear but then i went back and looked at my reports from when i was using a different oil that also sheared a bit into the high 20 grade and i had 0 lead.

The only time lead jumped very high was when i used Redline oil for 2 OCIs. When i switched back to Amsoil, lead started to decline. I should have another UOA report in a week after 5-6k and we'll see what happens...
 
Originally Posted By: Kris05TSX
I appreciate all the info and opinions...

After thinking about it some more, and seeing a few UOA's on other Honda K24's, I think this is a great report, especially considering that the car has 100k miles.

All other UOA's I saw for the K24 showed more wear, even with much less miles on the OCI and engine. Additionally, all appeared to show signs of some shearing.

I'm thinking that factors contributing to the slight shearing are 1)DOHC design of motor, and 2)relatively high RPM on the highway which is about 60% of use (as previously mentioned, I often have the cruise set at 80mph+)

OrdnanceMarine: I too can run the RPM's out 500 more than the factory redline (thanks to the Hondata reflash), but as I mentioned, I rarely do that... baybe twice a week. overall, this engine is babied except for maybe the high constant highway speeds of my work commute.

Although the Lead is just slightly high (according to Blackstone's universal averages anyway), I really believe that it's nothing to be concerned about. I think I'm going to stay with PP5w30 with OCI's performed between 7,500 - 8,500 miles as long as I don't begin to see oil consumption. Should I see signs of oil consumption, I might try GC0w30 as the viscosity is said to be slightly higher.



You're running a great oil and filter so wear should be nice and low. The "high" constant highway speeds don't even begin to test this motor. I think the shear is factored in to Honda's choice of oil specs as evidenced by the very low iron and aluminum you're seeing. I am curious to see if the lead drops with a different oil. Perhaps it's possible that Pennzoil Platinum's active cleaning agents strip a little lead?

Just to make sure, you are running 91 octane, right? Any chance you have 93?

I'm going to be touching up my tune anyway on my Si and if I see that lead number change I'll be sure to post it up.
 
I am running BP 93 octane fuel. After my current fill of PP5w30, I mat try a run of GC0w30 and sample to see the difference...
 
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