A basket case over the pit!

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Yes this is my first post here...I worked on foreign and us cars and trucks for 30 years ...Now I seen it all ,a '05 vw jetta TDI with wiped out camshaft lobes and bearings in the copper / cam followers tops gulled out to hydraulic valve open ...I was told first part was done by xxxxxxx did the oil change without filter removed not in stock -oil of unknown put in 2 weeks later the filter was changed .. the car was driven down south on the way back the engine's gave up soul R.I.P ! It went to a different shop for repair -they never told the owner of all troubles and tried to use a different cam camshaft[wrong one] and damaged it too ....so what the moo???what wrong oil was used ? total oil film failure ? The amount of ill trained people doing work at both sites is a outlook of things to come !!!Anybody heard of engine failures like this before as well??Thank You
 
Camshaft and lifter wear are well know problems related to the VW 1.9 liter PD engine. This is nothing new at all. Whether the owner used VW 505.01 oils as specified or whether they used heavy duty CJ-4 oils, these engines eat their camshafts and valve buckets.

Most diehard PD TDI owners just budget for a camshaft and bucket replacement around the 125,000 mile mark.
 
Yep. TDI guys spend countless hours bandering over different types of oil for this engine in addition to making unsubstiantied assumptions about the VW oil spec when in reality it just boils down to poor engine design and metallurgy.
 
Kinda like what happened with BMW blocks, except BMW at least acknowledged it, VW won't.

In the end I seriously don't what oil was used, if your cam was meant to fail it would fail.
 
the oil is synthetic Penzoil 5w20 was installed i just found out ...does this paint a picture better???any word on this oil good or bad for the TDI ???thxs
 
Originally Posted By: gus7
the oil is synthetic Penzoil 5w20 was installed i just found out ...does this paint a picture better???any word on this oil good or bad for the TDI ???thxs


Bad. It needed 5w40.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: gus7
the oil is synthetic Penzoil 5w20 was installed i just found out ...does this paint a picture better???any word on this oil good or bad for the TDI ???thxs


Bad. It needed 5w40.


+1. Many hear use M1 0-40, M1 5-40TDT, or Shell T6 5-40.
 
Originally Posted By: gus7
the oil is synthetic Penzoil 5w20 was installed i just found out ...does this paint a picture better???any word on this oil good or bad for the TDI ???thxs


He was probably looking for the lowest HTHS vis oil he could find because he read it on BITOG.

I also find it humorous folks are recommending brands in this thread.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: gus7
the oil is synthetic Penzoil 5w20 was installed i just found out ...does this paint a picture better???any word on this oil good or bad for the TDI ???thxs


He was probably looking for the lowest HTHS vis oil he could find because he read it on BITOG.

I also find it humorous folks are recommending brands in this thread.


I was just relating what seems to be the oils most often used in VW TDI engines by BITOGERS. The OP doesn't seem to know what oils would be suitable for TDI engines of this type. I will take this oportunity to say Amsoil, I'm sure, has a quality oil for these engines as well.
 
The head just seems to be of poor design on these engines. The 2.0 liter PD TDI in the Passat of this vintage didn't chew the camshaft up but the 1.9 did.

There's simply too much going on in that head for the amount of real estate afforded. Two valves plus a camshaft lobe actuated fuel pump/injector situated where previously sat only two valves has made the cam lobe too thin to carry the load.

Add in a incredibly steep ramp angle on the lobe and the pressures are just too much and spread out over too little surface to guarantee any long-term reliability.

Oil brand and rating doesn't seem to make much difference. Some have had varied results by reducing the drain interval and using HDEO oils but it's all just roll of the dice. No doubt about this one though, the Pennzoil 5W-20 was probably the absolute worst choice that could have been made.
 
Originally Posted By: gus7
the oil is synthetic Penzoil 5w20 was installed i just found out ...does this paint a picture better???any word on this oil good or bad for the TDI ???thxs

Terrible. Get it out ASAP. Use a CJ-4 5w40 oil, whichever flavor you like.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Bad. It needed 5w40.

Well put.

Originally Posted By: tig1
+1. Many hear use M1 0-40, M1 5-40TDT, or Shell T6 5-40.

DON'T USE MOBIL 1 0W40 IN A PD! Several documented cases of massively accelerated cam wear with that oil in PDs on TDIClub. I would not use any of the synthetic Xw30 oils like Castrol SLX, Longlife III, GC or even Syntec 5w40 (it has also not been able to stand up to the PD).

Good choices with solid track records would include but not limited to Mobil 1 TDT, Shell Rotella T6, Amsoil DEO, Schaeffer 9000, Petro Canada Duron, Pentosin HP2, etc... most CJ-4 5w40s will do your cam well.

Originally Posted By: Pablo
I also find it humorous folks are recommending brands in this thread

Why wouldn't those of us with direct experience with this engine recommend a brand/viscosity/specification?

Originally Posted By: FowVay
There's simply too much going on in that head for the amount of real estate afforded. Two valves plus a camshaft lobe actuated fuel pump/injector situated where previously sat only two valves has made the cam lobe too thin to carry the load.

Agreed, there are several issues in the head. The injector lobe is massive which steals support & width from the other lobes, also loads the camshaft opposite to how it 'should' be loaded. The BRM (2005.5 - 2006 Jetta - mk5) cam is even worse than the BEW (2004 - 2005 Jetta, 2004 - 2006 Golf & NB; all mk4).

Originally Posted By: FowVay
Oil brand and rating doesn't seem to make much difference. Some have had varied results by reducing the drain interval and using HDEO oils but it's all just roll of the dice.

Disagree. Oil brand, type & viscosity seem to have plenty to do with cam longevity - IMO you want the beefiest HTHS possible with a good dose of zinc, phosphorous & moly to help. Anecdotes from some TDI gurus on engines that have run 15w40 oils show far less cam wear than most running 'certified' lubricants. Reducing the drain interval also doesn't seem to have helped, in fact my lowest wear metals and wear rates came from a 30k km oil change interval after adding a bypass filter.

Yes, more anecdotes, but no one here is going to do enough controlled studies to get real data. But I have a vested interest in this cam design and its lubrication as my Golf has the BEW engine.
 
Originally Posted By: scurvy


Originally Posted By: Pablo
I also find it humorous folks are recommending brands in this thread

Why wouldn't those of us with direct experience with this engine recommend a brand/viscosity/specification?



Because it's irrelevant at this point. Put on a different hat. Pablo pops in here and says "Amsoil XXX HDEO would have prevented this". I would have been busted and reported to Helen.

Yeah I ain't smokin' crack.

Sure it's another design special from VW. But even the most lowly brand approaching a baseline HDEO would have done better than an SL/M/N XW-20. Brand is irrelevant here and now. Too late.
 
I see a perfect example of not following the vehicle makers recommendations for oil, and poor engine design all wrapped into one thread. JMO
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I see a perfect example of not following the vehicle makers recommendations for oil, and poor engine design all wrapped into one thread. JMO


Exactly. Not a thread for Myzzoil vs. Jerzoil.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Because it's irrelevant at this point.


Disagree. VW hasn't improved the cam design; it will happen again. Using a far better oil on the second try will lead to substantially longer cam life.

There's a few folks I've read about on their third set of cam & lifters. Might only be on their second if they paid attention the second time. Fool me twice...

Also, you put on a different hat. What if you had come in and said "Amsoil XYZ, Mobil 90W47 Slovakian Formula, Royal Blue Shocktastic & HejazCo Butter-Flavored Pan Spray have all worked well in this application"? You wouldn't have been reported and would have given useful information instead of insisting that the oil brand didn't matter. You're at a disadvantage in that you have a vested interest in selling more oil for your company and any recommendations of it from you are seen as shilling, rightly or wrongly.

In my experience with this engine oil brand, viscosity & type absolutely makes a differenc and I'm happy agreeing to disagree.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I see a perfect example of not following the vehicle makers recommendations for oil, and poor engine design all wrapped into one thread.

Poor head design for sure, but following the manufacturer's oil recommendations has lead to far shorter cam life than when going off-book with a sensible oil.
 
Originally Posted By: scurvy
Originally Posted By: Pablo
demarpaint said:
I see a perfect example of not following the vehicle makers recommendations for oil, and poor engine design all wrapped into one thread.

Poor head design for sure, but following the manufacturer's oil recommendations has lead to far shorter cam life than when going off-book with a sensible oil.


5W20 I'm sure wasn't mentioned by VW. Bottom line IMO is owners of these vehicles paying the $$$ VW gets for them shouldn't have to experiment with anything to get cams to last longer VW should have figured that out long before so many of them hit the roads. It really sucks when the consumer has to be the product tester/trouble shooter. JMO
 
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