Redline shockproof in Jerico 4 speed

[200mph]

I have a Jercio DR-4 in my road race car. I'm aware the drag box is made using a different gear hardening process and is not best suited to road racing. However I've road raced the car for years with Redline shockproof lightweight in trans without a problem until now. Several gears failed in the trans so I sent it to be repaired.

I was advised by the builder to use Mobil 1 or Royal Purple and stop using Redline shookproof because it is detremental to the gear material which I will do, but would like any other perspectives on the advice.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and time.

 

[A_Harman]

If I understand correctly, you are using a drag race transmission in a road race car? (DR-4: Drag Race 4-speed?) Must be. Well, don't do that.

Do you know what the gear material and hardening process are?
Since the transmission is being rebuilt, are road race gears being installed?
Did the gears fail via tooth breakage or surface pitting?
Is there a transmission oil cooler on the car?

I'm thinking that Lightweight Shockproof may be thinning out too much if the temperature is very high. Redline also makes Heavyweight Shockproof and standard Shockproof gear oils. Perhaps those would be more appropriate for your application. I doubt that M1 or RP will work any better if the gear material is wrong and the operating temperature is too high. I have spalled the outboard axle bearings twice road-racing my Camaro using RP, so I can say definitely that it is not a cure-all.

And as far as M1 is concerned, there are always people on this forum that complain about high levels of iron in Used Oil Analyses of M1. Mobil always says that the high iron levels are due to the chemistry of M1, so it sounds like a similar complaint that your mechanic is making about Redline.

I suggest you call the Redline tech line. They are very helpful. If you describe your application, they would be able to recommend the appropriate lube.

 

[Smokefan1977]

I would call Dave directly @ RL and speak with him. Im pretty sure RL has a superior product for your application

 

[dailydriver]

One other thing to consider; Dave has told me that the RL ShockProof oils contain moly (why I will not use them in my Eaton CF Posi equipped rear axle).

While I doubt this has any bearing on the gear materials, it could have an ill-effect on how the gears engage (clash, etc.??), even in a dog ring box like a Jerico.

YES, ASK Dave.

BTW; What vehicle is this in??

 

[200mph]

I am using a drag box in a road race car. I have road raced with this box for over 10 years but didn't start using Redline until about 4 years back.

I do not know what the gear material is, but know that they use different material in their road race units.

I'm having a road race trans built to replace it.

Second and Third gears failed. The teeth on those gears were broken and about half of each tooth was gone. The trans worked when we parked it but had a bad vibration.

The car has an oil cooling system per Jerico instructions. The headers are wrapped where they pass by the gear box as well. It has worked in that configuration with redline for years which is why I'm surprised. Shockproof viscosity is rated at 75/140 so why would it be too thin? Mobile 1 is 75/90.

I understand the box is not designed to road race. But it did for along time without any issues. That is why I'm trying to determine if it really is the oil under the circumstances.

 

[200mph]

Thanks.

The vehicle is what used to be a 1991 C-4 Corvette. Not much of the orginal car is left. Just the body panels and most of the frame. It is a dedicated low budget racer but it's what I can afford.

 

[Smokefan1977]

I personally dont think it's the lubricant causing your issue unless RL changed something and I dont think they have. Call Dave and give him the complete lowdown. I honestly feel he knows more about the subject then the builder does who watches too many shows on Spike TV and thinks RP is superior then RL.

The only correct answere to this will come from RL.

 

[A_Harman]

If teeth are broken off of gears, it's a problem with the basic strength of the material or the design of the gear tooth. Lube selection will not fix a strength problem. If the teeth had been worn, pitted, or spalled, that would be a lube issue.

If you got ten years of use out of the transmission in a road race car, I think that's pretty good. Maybe it was fatigue of the gear teeth, and it was just time for them to fail.

There are two basic materials and heat treat processes that the gears can be from. I'm thinking that the gears of the drag race trans would be a medium carbon steel, such as 5150, that is induction or flame hardened. The road race gears I'm thinking would be a low carbon steel, such as 8620 or 9310, that has been furnace carburized and then hardened. Carburize & harden gears would be more expensive than induction or flame-hardened gears.

 

[Rand]

That gear oil should be fine but its not a 75w140
redline rates their oils weird and says stuff like that all the time

"5w20 oil with greater blah blah than 5w30"

lightweight shockproof only claims FILM STRENGTH of a 75w140 not viscosity.

If the gear oil is heated excessively you might want to bump up to heavy shockproof.

Lightweight ShockProof

Unique lubricant with solid microscopic particles offers low drag/high protection
Relatively low viscosity, yet cushions gear teeth under extreme pressure
Helps to prevent tooth breakage, resists throw-off

Avoid use with pumps, coolers, and filters as unique medium and affinity for metal can cause clogging
Designed for wet sump transmissions and differentials with splash lubrication

I'm not a redline expert though.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
If teeth are broken off of gears, it's a problem with the basic strength of the material or the design of the gear tooth. Lube selection will not fix a strength problem. If the teeth had been worn, pitted, or spalled, that would be a lube issue.

If you got ten years of use out of the transmission in a road race car, I think that's pretty good. Maybe it was fatigue of the gear teeth, and it was just time for them to fail.

There are two basic materials and heat treat processes that the gears can be from. I'm thinking that the gears of the drag race trans would be a medium carbon steel, such as 5150, that is induction or flame hardened. The road race gears I'm thinking would be a low carbon steel, such as 8620 or 9310, that has been furnace carburized and then hardened. Carburize & harden gears would be more expensive than induction or flame-hardened gears.


AGREED!!

Also, I've heard somewhere that the Jerico drag race boxes were NOT built to be downshifted hard, in road race conditions (IF at all??).

Now, how much of this is due to material and treatments, and how much is due to the dog ring setups being different, and therefore it finally giving up the ghost from road course downshifting, I do not know.

But 10 years of it could NOT have been good for that gearbox.

 

[200mph]

I think you are probably correct. The box is old and provided years of dependable service in an environment it wasn't designed for. Jerico makes great products, so does Redline. My goal here is to understand the reasons why it failed. It would have been better in my opinion for Jerico to have said "your transmission is worn out" and not blame the oil.

I'm in contact with Dave at Redline and working to gain more insight. Thank you for you time and perspective.

 

[200mph]

Thank you for that information.

I have to use a cooling system due to the high header heat in the transmission tunnel, so that restaint alone is reason enough to change the lubricant.

Jerico recommends Mobil 1 - I should respect their recommendation if for no other reason than that's what they said to use.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: 200mph
Thank you for that information. Jerico recommends Mobil 1 - I should respect their recommendation if for no other reason than that's what they said to use.


What I have found (and have actually had some manufacturers admit to) is that they will ONLY recommend what they have tested, and/or used themselves in their gearboxes.
Given that NONE of them (even the OE giants, like Tremec, ZF, and Getrag) have the time/effort/budget to test out ALL of the hundreds (thousands??) of available fluids out there, this makes sense, and one CANNOT blame them.

This does NOT mean that other fluids will not work, or even be superior to what they suggest, but you will get NO grief from them about failures/fault if you use what they suggested (hopefully).

 

[EricJRoy]

One of the problems with Redline shockproof is the very high parafin content, which creates a waxy buildup inside the trans. Redline says the following regarding shockproof
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=44&pcid=8

"Avoid use with pumps, coolers, and filters as unique medium and affinity for metal can cause clogging"

So MAYBE the shockproof clogged your cooler, I would inspect it


A better choice might be Redline Mt-90 which has a GL-4 rating and 75w-90 synthetic base. I would choose that over Mobil 1 75-90 Gl-5

Another good choice might be Valvoline synthetic 75w-140 rear end gear oil, especially with the high heat application, will not be as thin at temp. I have used it in my BMW final drive and it seemed good, I did drain it, inspect it, and pump it back in after 2000 miles

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: EricJRoy
One of the problems with Redline shockproof is the very high parafin content, which creates a waxy buildup inside the trans.


What is the evidence of this? I believe this is totally incorrect, from what I understand the supposed "parrafin buildup" is actually moly being centrifuged out of suspension during use. AFAIK, Shockproof is POE based like their other gear oils and contains no paraffin.

 

[EricJRoy]

Im probably wrong about paraffin content, but none the less, Shockproof creates a waxy buildup which isnt ideal inside a manual transmission IMO. And redline says its a no no for coolers. I have seen pictures in Sport Compact Car magazine of a Nissan SE-R trans tear down it thickly coated everything.
Shockproof may have great film strength, but that kinda excessive film strength is probably not needed with wider dog ring gears anyway, unless the engine makes 600 plus hp.

 

[[RT] ProjUltraZ]

i wrote to Dave at Redline awhile ago after seeing something on their website that said lightweight shockproof could be used in gearboxes. he said:

"Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, the LightWeight ShockProof isn’t an ATF and wouldn’t be recommended in your T-56 transmission. We don’t make a SuperLightWeight ShockProof gear oil.
In your transmission the D4 ATF would be recommended, though if you wanted to try a higher viscosity the MTL would be an option, the next higher viscosity above the D4ATF."

 

[dailydriver]

A Jerico dog ring gearbox is about as far from a stock T-56 as one could get while still being a manual transmission.

That being said, the RL LW Shockproof may still not be the correct fluid to run in it.

 

[dparm]

I am still confused about what the Shockproof oils are supposed to be used in. I have never seen a clear explanation.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: dparm
I am still confused about what the Shockproof oils are supposed to be used in. I have never seen a clear explanation.


I know that the "heavy" Shockproof is for ultra power rear axles/diffs with spools and without clutch pack limited slips, especially those in Top Fuel dragsters and funny cars (like Amsoil's Severe Gear 190/250).

I have no idea what the lightweight and super lightweight Shockproofs are made for.