When using any synthetic oil (5w-40) how do I determine what the max operating temperature is for the oil I'm using? I see a ton of manufacturer information but no real data for maximum temperature.
Thanks guys!!
Thanks guys!!
5w-40 max operating temperatures
- Thread starter HeavyAssault06
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JHZR2
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260F is a sustained temperature in my 135i. The issue is acceptable viscosity at elevated temp, as well as increased oxidation rate killing oil life.
So I'd go by oil pressure and temperature. You need the right viscosity to sustain pressure at whatever the steady state max temp is. From there, you either go heavier or add a cooler. Particularly if you don't add a cooler, then I'd want to track oxidation by UOA.
So I'd go by oil pressure and temperature. You need the right viscosity to sustain pressure at whatever the steady state max temp is. From there, you either go heavier or add a cooler. Particularly if you don't add a cooler, then I'd want to track oxidation by UOA.
As a rule of thumb I've heard that sustained temps over 275 is the danger zone. But I agree that pressure is king.
For certain oil brands like Red Line Oil in 15w50 or 20w50 they say do not use unless you get average temps of 275 F or higher oil temps.
Originally Posted By: dparm
As a rule of thumb I've heard that sustained temps over 275 is the danger zone. But I agree that pressure is king.
that number is for GPI dino oil
As a rule of thumb I've heard that sustained temps over 275 is the danger zone. But I agree that pressure is king.
that number is for GPI dino oil
Why do you ask because syn oils temps aren't a whole lot higher with some base stocks.
There is an issue related to the 6.0 Ford that I'm trying to understand better. I've found that Ford says EOT normal range is -40 to 302. I wasn't sure at what temp the oil looses it's properties and/or effectiveness. I've read a few oil product sheets and see a viscosity rating but wasn't sure how to relate that to operating temperature.
I'm currently using Valvoline Extreme Blue and use ROT T6 as well. Any additional help is appreciated!! Thanks for the current info!!
I'm currently using Valvoline Extreme Blue and use ROT T6 as well. Any additional help is appreciated!! Thanks for the current info!!
Originally Posted By: HeavyAssault06
There is an issue related to the 6.0 Ford that I'm trying to understand better. I've found that Ford says EOT normal range is -40 to 302. I wasn't sure at what temp the oil looses it's properties and/or effectiveness. I've read a few oil product sheets and see a viscosity rating but wasn't sure how to relate that to operating temperature.
I'm currently using Valvoline Extreme Blue and use ROT T6 as well. Any additional help is appreciated!! Thanks for the current info!!
The issue isn't the oil temp, its the difference between engine oil temp and engine coolant temp. On the 6.0 when the oil cooler begins to plug up with debris from the coolant system it starves the egr cooler for coolant, which in turn flash boils the coolant in the coolant starved super hot egr cooler.
Steam in the coolant system leads to the egr cooler ruptering along with head gaskets leaking. It is very important to monitor ECT vs. EOT in a 6.0. A bypass coolant filter is a very good investment. Many are using a scangaugeII to monitor temp differental, any more than 15f at 65mph unloaded is signs of an oil cooler beginning to plug.
There is an issue related to the 6.0 Ford that I'm trying to understand better. I've found that Ford says EOT normal range is -40 to 302. I wasn't sure at what temp the oil looses it's properties and/or effectiveness. I've read a few oil product sheets and see a viscosity rating but wasn't sure how to relate that to operating temperature.
I'm currently using Valvoline Extreme Blue and use ROT T6 as well. Any additional help is appreciated!! Thanks for the current info!!
The issue isn't the oil temp, its the difference between engine oil temp and engine coolant temp. On the 6.0 when the oil cooler begins to plug up with debris from the coolant system it starves the egr cooler for coolant, which in turn flash boils the coolant in the coolant starved super hot egr cooler.
Steam in the coolant system leads to the egr cooler ruptering along with head gaskets leaking. It is very important to monitor ECT vs. EOT in a 6.0. A bypass coolant filter is a very good investment. Many are using a scangaugeII to monitor temp differental, any more than 15f at 65mph unloaded is signs of an oil cooler beginning to plug.
Viscosity being equal, I think the continuous upper temperature limit depends largely on the base stock of the oil. Here is some data I printed out from a BITOG post a couple years ago (I can't find the link to post); the source was Joe Gibbs Racing:
Grp III: 250 F
Grp IV: 350 F
Grp V: 450 F
Grp III: 250 F
Grp IV: 350 F
Grp V: 450 F
Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
Originally Posted By: HeavyAssault06
There is an issue related to the 6.0 Ford that I'm trying to understand better. I've found that Ford says EOT normal range is -40 to 302. I wasn't sure at what temp the oil looses it's properties and/or effectiveness. I've read a few oil product sheets and see a viscosity rating but wasn't sure how to relate that to operating temperature.
I'm currently using Valvoline Extreme Blue and use ROT T6 as well. Any additional help is appreciated!! Thanks for the current info!!
The issue isn't the oil temp, its the difference between engine oil temp and engine coolant temp. On the 6.0 when the oil cooler begins to plug up with debris from the coolant system it starves the egr cooler for coolant, which in turn flash boils the coolant in the coolant starved super hot egr cooler.
Steam in the coolant system leads to the egr cooler ruptering along with head gaskets leaking. It is very important to monitor ECT vs. EOT in a 6.0. A bypass coolant filter is a very good investment. Many are using a scangaugeII to monitor temp differental, any more than 15f at 65mph unloaded is signs of an oil cooler beginning to plug.
The Ford TSB states to run a road test at WOT/Heavy Load to see the delta between EOT/ECT. 65mph unloaded is VERY conservative.
Your correct about the ECT/EOT issue on stock trucks. My research is regarding trucks with a deleted EGR cooler. The "delta rule" doesn't apply at that point since the EGR cooler is gone. SO with the EGR cooler gone what's the limit of temps I should see for my EOT. The Ford manual states that the EOT normal range is -40* to 302*.
Originally Posted By: HeavyAssault06
There is an issue related to the 6.0 Ford that I'm trying to understand better. I've found that Ford says EOT normal range is -40 to 302. I wasn't sure at what temp the oil looses it's properties and/or effectiveness. I've read a few oil product sheets and see a viscosity rating but wasn't sure how to relate that to operating temperature.
I'm currently using Valvoline Extreme Blue and use ROT T6 as well. Any additional help is appreciated!! Thanks for the current info!!
The issue isn't the oil temp, its the difference between engine oil temp and engine coolant temp. On the 6.0 when the oil cooler begins to plug up with debris from the coolant system it starves the egr cooler for coolant, which in turn flash boils the coolant in the coolant starved super hot egr cooler.
Steam in the coolant system leads to the egr cooler ruptering along with head gaskets leaking. It is very important to monitor ECT vs. EOT in a 6.0. A bypass coolant filter is a very good investment. Many are using a scangaugeII to monitor temp differental, any more than 15f at 65mph unloaded is signs of an oil cooler beginning to plug.
The Ford TSB states to run a road test at WOT/Heavy Load to see the delta between EOT/ECT. 65mph unloaded is VERY conservative.
Your correct about the ECT/EOT issue on stock trucks. My research is regarding trucks with a deleted EGR cooler. The "delta rule" doesn't apply at that point since the EGR cooler is gone. SO with the EGR cooler gone what's the limit of temps I should see for my EOT. The Ford manual states that the EOT normal range is -40* to 302*.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: m6pwr
Viscosity being equal, I think the continuous upper temperature limit depends largely on the base stock of the oil. Here is some data I printed out from a BITOG post a couple years ago (I can't find the link to post); the source was Joe Gibbs Racing:
Grp III: 250 F
Grp IV: 350 F
Grp V: 450 F
Thanks!!
Can anyone explain the information I copied below?
High Temp. High Shear Viscosity @ 150 C, cP 3.8
I found this on Valvoline Extreme Blue
Viscosity being equal, I think the continuous upper temperature limit depends largely on the base stock of the oil. Here is some data I printed out from a BITOG post a couple years ago (I can't find the link to post); the source was Joe Gibbs Racing:
Grp III: 250 F
Grp IV: 350 F
Grp V: 450 F
Thanks!!
Can anyone explain the information I copied below?
High Temp. High Shear Viscosity @ 150 C, cP 3.8
I found this on Valvoline Extreme Blue
From a Mobil 1 page:
Mobil 1 Hot Temperature Properties
So what value is this at high temperatures? At high temperatures the oil molecule in synthetic oils are far more stable and degenerate less. This means not only do synthetic oils maintain lubrication integrity, they continue to cool and clean engine components at constant temperatures of up to 180°C, and can handle short term temperatures in excess of 200°C.
Mobil 1 Hot Temperature Properties
So what value is this at high temperatures? At high temperatures the oil molecule in synthetic oils are far more stable and degenerate less. This means not only do synthetic oils maintain lubrication integrity, they continue to cool and clean engine components at constant temperatures of up to 180°C, and can handle short term temperatures in excess of 200°C.
Originally Posted By: HeavyAssault06
Originally Posted By: m6pwr
Viscosity being equal, I think the continuous upper temperature limit depends largely on the base stock of the oil. Here is some data I printed out from a BITOG post a couple years ago (I can't find the link to post); the source was Joe Gibbs Racing:
Grp III: 250 F
Grp IV: 350 F
Grp V: 450 F
Thanks!!
Can anyone explain the information I copied below?
High Temp. High Shear Viscosity @ 150 C, cP 3.8
I found this on Valvoline Extreme Blue
That's the HTHS viscosity that you'll read much about on BITOG. It is the dynamic viscosity measured at 150C while the oil is being subjected to shear. Generally, oils of a given viscosity that contain high amounts of Viscosity Index Improvers will have lower HTHS values than oils that have little or none. If you are working your engine hard, HTHS is the value to look at. Diesel engines worldwide are designed to work with oils of 3.5cP minimum HTHS.
Originally Posted By: m6pwr
Viscosity being equal, I think the continuous upper temperature limit depends largely on the base stock of the oil. Here is some data I printed out from a BITOG post a couple years ago (I can't find the link to post); the source was Joe Gibbs Racing:
Grp III: 250 F
Grp IV: 350 F
Grp V: 450 F
Thanks!!
Can anyone explain the information I copied below?
High Temp. High Shear Viscosity @ 150 C, cP 3.8
I found this on Valvoline Extreme Blue
That's the HTHS viscosity that you'll read much about on BITOG. It is the dynamic viscosity measured at 150C while the oil is being subjected to shear. Generally, oils of a given viscosity that contain high amounts of Viscosity Index Improvers will have lower HTHS values than oils that have little or none. If you are working your engine hard, HTHS is the value to look at. Diesel engines worldwide are designed to work with oils of 3.5cP minimum HTHS.
Originally Posted By: HeavyAssault06
Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
Originally Posted By: HeavyAssault06
There is an issue related to the 6.0 Ford that I'm trying to understand better. I've found that Ford says EOT normal range is -40 to 302. I wasn't sure at what temp the oil looses it's properties and/or effectiveness. I've read a few oil product sheets and see a viscosity rating but wasn't sure how to relate that to operating temperature.
I'm currently using Valvoline Extreme Blue and use ROT T6 as well. Any additional help is appreciated!! Thanks for the current info!!
Now that I understand your question better I can give you a better answer.
According to the 6.0 gurus you should start to back out of the power at 235f EOT, at 253f EOT the 6.0 will begin to defuel per computer command. So even with your EGR cooler removed, and if your oil cooler is plugged yhe computer will save the internal componets.
I am well aware that oil by itself is able to withstand higher operating temps, but in this specific application Fords computer overrides your right foot.
The issue isn't the oil temp, its the difference between engine oil temp and engine coolant temp. On the 6.0 when the oil cooler begins to plug up with debris from the coolant system it starves the egr cooler for coolant, which in turn flash boils the coolant in the coolant starved super hot egr cooler.
Steam in the coolant system leads to the egr cooler ruptering along with head gaskets leaking. It is very important to monitor ECT vs. EOT in a 6.0. A bypass coolant filter is a very good investment. Many are using a scangaugeII to monitor temp differental, any more than 15f at 65mph unloaded is signs of an oil cooler beginning to plug.
The Ford TSB states to run a road test at WOT/Heavy Load to see the delta between EOT/ECT. 65mph unloaded is VERY conservative.
Your correct about the ECT/EOT issue on stock trucks. My research is regarding trucks with a deleted EGR cooler. The "delta rule" doesn't apply at that point since the EGR cooler is gone. SO with the EGR cooler gone what's the limit of temps I should see for my EOT. The Ford manual states that the EOT normal range is -40* to 302*.
Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
Originally Posted By: HeavyAssault06
There is an issue related to the 6.0 Ford that I'm trying to understand better. I've found that Ford says EOT normal range is -40 to 302. I wasn't sure at what temp the oil looses it's properties and/or effectiveness. I've read a few oil product sheets and see a viscosity rating but wasn't sure how to relate that to operating temperature.
I'm currently using Valvoline Extreme Blue and use ROT T6 as well. Any additional help is appreciated!! Thanks for the current info!!
Now that I understand your question better I can give you a better answer.
According to the 6.0 gurus you should start to back out of the power at 235f EOT, at 253f EOT the 6.0 will begin to defuel per computer command. So even with your EGR cooler removed, and if your oil cooler is plugged yhe computer will save the internal componets.
I am well aware that oil by itself is able to withstand higher operating temps, but in this specific application Fords computer overrides your right foot.
The issue isn't the oil temp, its the difference between engine oil temp and engine coolant temp. On the 6.0 when the oil cooler begins to plug up with debris from the coolant system it starves the egr cooler for coolant, which in turn flash boils the coolant in the coolant starved super hot egr cooler.
Steam in the coolant system leads to the egr cooler ruptering along with head gaskets leaking. It is very important to monitor ECT vs. EOT in a 6.0. A bypass coolant filter is a very good investment. Many are using a scangaugeII to monitor temp differental, any more than 15f at 65mph unloaded is signs of an oil cooler beginning to plug.
The Ford TSB states to run a road test at WOT/Heavy Load to see the delta between EOT/ECT. 65mph unloaded is VERY conservative.
Your correct about the ECT/EOT issue on stock trucks. My research is regarding trucks with a deleted EGR cooler. The "delta rule" doesn't apply at that point since the EGR cooler is gone. SO with the EGR cooler gone what's the limit of temps I should see for my EOT. The Ford manual states that the EOT normal range is -40* to 302*.
Last edited:
I know of and COMPLETELY understand the EGR/OIL cooler issues. My question is about oil temperature ratings. I did read about the PCM shutting down the motor but wasn't sure of the temp cutoff.
Thanks guys for all the info!!
Thanks guys for all the info!!
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: dparm
As a rule of thumb I've heard that sustained temps over 275 is the danger zone. But I agree that pressure is king.
that number is for GPI dino oil
I said "sustained". We all know there are hot-spots and places like bearings where it's well over 300 for short periods (hence the HTHS being so important).
Originally Posted By: dparm
As a rule of thumb I've heard that sustained temps over 275 is the danger zone. But I agree that pressure is king.
that number is for GPI dino oil
I said "sustained". We all know there are hot-spots and places like bearings where it's well over 300 for short periods (hence the HTHS being so important).
Hi,
HeavyAssault06 - Continuous "bulk oil" operating temperatures above 130C would be "destructive" to the HDEO. Typically this is around 120C for mineral HDEOs
Of course such temps are a reality in some applications with appropriate short OCIs and lubricant degradation monitoring systems
HeavyAssault06 - Continuous "bulk oil" operating temperatures above 130C would be "destructive" to the HDEO. Typically this is around 120C for mineral HDEOs
Of course such temps are a reality in some applications with appropriate short OCIs and lubricant degradation monitoring systems
I used to run a test at Cummins Engine Co. called the Hot Box Test. This consisted of running at engine at rated power for 200 hours with coolant temperature of 230F. Since Cummins engines use oil to coolant heat exchangers, this meant oil pan temperatures of 265F. Our standard oil for test engines was 15w40 Valvoline Premium Blue (no surprise there!), and we never had a problem with oil oxidation.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I used to run a test at Cummins Engine Co. called the Hot Box Test. This consisted of running at engine at rated power for 200 hours with coolant temperature of 230F. Since Cummins engines use oil to coolant heat exchangers, this meant oil pan temperatures of 265F. Our standard oil for test engines was 15w40 Valvoline Premium Blue (no surprise there!), and we never had a problem with oil oxidation.
WOW....I feel pretty good about using Valvoline Extreme Blue now.
Was this run on all Cummins engines?
I used to run a test at Cummins Engine Co. called the Hot Box Test. This consisted of running at engine at rated power for 200 hours with coolant temperature of 230F. Since Cummins engines use oil to coolant heat exchangers, this meant oil pan temperatures of 265F. Our standard oil for test engines was 15w40 Valvoline Premium Blue (no surprise there!), and we never had a problem with oil oxidation.
WOW....I feel pretty good about using Valvoline Extreme Blue now.
Was this run on all Cummins engines?
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: dparm
As a rule of thumb I've heard that sustained temps over 275 is the danger zone. But I agree that pressure is king.
that number is for GPI dino oil
I said "sustained". We all know there are hot-spots and places like bearings where it's well over 300 for short periods (hence the HTHS being so important).
Sump temps ?
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: dparm
As a rule of thumb I've heard that sustained temps over 275 is the danger zone. But I agree that pressure is king.
that number is for GPI dino oil
I said "sustained". We all know there are hot-spots and places like bearings where it's well over 300 for short periods (hence the HTHS being so important).
Sump temps ?
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