Subaru boxer diesel MY10 factory fill UOA - 4k mi

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Hello,
I'd like to see your comments & ideas about this:

sbd20106kkmfactoryfill.jpg

6kkm / ~4k miles - factory fill engine oil from EU Subaru Outback boxer turbo diesel 2.0L 150HP. The car, driven by a friend of mine very slowly/carefully during this break-in period (few months).

In mid May we will have another UOA from 7kkm on this engine but the above one for me doesn't look good (especially, except very high wear, levels of silicon, potassium, boron - probably not oil addive only).

Thanks
 
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Only numbers on the report that concern me are the silicon and copper, which will probably go down quite a bit over the next two oil changes. Looking at the calcium number, I would say the boron is part of the additive package.

Anyway of knowing what the factory fill was for a Subaru sold in Poland?

Thanks for posting this. As Blackstone said, we don't have Subaru diesels over here.
 
Johnny, thanks for your comments..

The cars/engines are directly from Japan (via Germany probably) -but no oil is changed/put into them in Poland.

What do you think about potassium level (antifreeze?) and its eventual impact on high level of copper wear (bearings?) ? Maybe something is wrong with cooling lines?

I remember that copper doesn't like molybdenum - maybe this is a reason?
 
Seems most engines from Japan are filled with a high concentration of moly. Right now the potassium does not look to high, especially since the sodium is low.

What oil did your friend use for his first oil change? The next two samples should look a lot better. Ask him to have a TBN reading done on the next one.
 
The car has DPF (closed type - lots of problems with that..) so there only low/mid saps oils can be used (that's why so low ZDDP is above) - currently there is Top1 Evolution 5W-30 - all such oils has TBN max 6-8 and in Poland it happens to buy more sulfur fuel than allowed.. Do you think it could be a reason of increased copper wear?
 
Well, to much sulfur is not good, but you would have to talk with someone that knows a lot more about fuels than I do. I just pull up to the cheapest gas pump and fill up as needed.
 
That is very high copper, isn't it?
Don't understand why blackstone says the viscosity is a 5W30, when it is clearly down in the 5W20 range. Is factory fill a 5W40?
 
Originally Posted By: wlyszkow
The car has DPF (closed type - lots of problems with that..) so there only low/mid saps oils can be used (that's why so low ZDDP is above) - currently there is Top1 Evolution 5W-30 - all such oils has TBN max 6-8 and in Poland it happens to buy more sulfur fuel than allowed.. Do you think it could be a reason of increased copper wear?
As I understand it, increased sulfur in the fuel would mess with the exhaust treatment systems, but not the engine itself.
 
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
That is very high copper, isn't it?
Don't understand why blackstone says the viscosity is a 5W30, when it is clearly down in the 5W20 range. Is factory fill a 5W40?

They explained to me that the factory fill was 5W-30 in the past - now is 5W-20 after fuel dilution.
 
Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Originally Posted By: wlyszkow
The car has DPF (closed type - lots of problems with that..) so there only low/mid saps oils can be used (that's why so low ZDDP is above) - currently there is Top1 Evolution 5W-30 - all such oils has TBN max 6-8 and in Poland it happens to buy more sulfur fuel than allowed.. Do you think it could be a reason of increased copper wear?
As I understand it, increased sulfur in the fuel would mess with the exhaust treatment systems, but not the engine itself.

Sulfur from fuel may lower oil TBN rapidly due to acid formed - then increased engine wear may begin.
 
Thanks for info Charlie..
It would be good idea - we have tested already AMSOIL DEO 5W-40 with very good results and AMSOIL AFL 5W-40 (maybe I will get UOA even) but there is one big problem with that cars within the first 3 years / 100kkm - authorized dealrs require/allow ACEA C3 oils - meaning - only with saps < 0,8%.
 
Originally Posted By: Johnny
As Blackstone said, we don't have Subaru diesels over here.


how depressing... I thought maybe the EPA took a donut break and some slipped in the US...

anyway thanks for posting! I wouldn't get to upset of the results yet. it should trend down.
 
Originally Posted By: wlyszkow
Thanks for info Charlie..
It would be good idea - we have tested already AMSOIL DEO 5W-40 with very good results and AMSOIL AFL 5W-40 (maybe I will get UOA even) but there is one big problem with that cars within the first 3 years / 100kkm - authorized dealrs require/allow ACEA C3 oils - meaning - only with saps < 0,8%.


You can try telling the dealer that Mercedes allows use of ACEA E6 oils like Delvac 1 LE in DPF equipped cars:
http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolistenmain.php?session_id=&navigation_path=&language_id=1

Sheet 223.2, p.3
If it's good enough for MB....

Charlie
 
Good for MB vans/trucks with DPF...
I know Subaru service in Poland which uses "synthetic" Shell Rimula R6 LME 5W-30 for Subaru Boxer Diesel (A blend of severely hydrotreated slack wax and additives. Highly refined mineral oil) - also MB 228.51 certified, low saps (0,95%) and TBN 10,4 - I will have UOA soon and we will see.
 
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Consider use of Delvac 1 LE 5W30:
http://www.mobil.com/Lithuania-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1_LE_5W-30.aspx
Mercedes allows use of 228.51 truck oils with DPF car engines because they have almost as low ash (1.0% instead of 0.8%) and same phosphorus (800ppm) as 229.51 oils.
TBN is 12.6!!! Great for higher sulfur fuels.
It seems to be popular and available in the former East Bloc countries.

Charlie

Sometimes highest TBN is not best in time - check its retention test: http://www.oildepot.ca/images/cj-4-tbn-viscosity-compare.jpg
 
I am suspicious of testing that "proves" Amsoil performs better than everything else....
But in any respect we're not talking about one product with TBN 12 and another at 10.5; D1 LE is 12.6, all the 229.51/ACEA C3 products I've looked at are 6.4 to 7.0 at the very most. An enormous difference, especially considering that when TBN crosses below 3.5 to 4 it is likely to be less than TAN (total acid number) and therefore the oil may considered to be "done" (in some people's opinions, including mine).
Also: some 228.51 products also carry 228.5, some don't. In order to qualify for 228.5 TBN must be at least 12.

Charlie
 
And note that the testing involved Delvac 1 ESP (not LE), which is supposed to have a starting TBN of 10.1, not 12! In any respecting ESP and all the other products tested do not meet 228.51 because of too much phosphorus which would damage the NOx catalytic convertor.

Charlie
 
In my opinion the problem is that UOA may be not enough to compare oils used in modern diesel with DPF - we should also loot at DPF soot levels at least.

m37charlie, do you know the Delvac's Noack ? In my opinion it should be "combined" with saps for using such oil in modern t-diesel with DPF.

Do you know if it is PAO based oil or GIII "synthetic"?

Do you have any UOA from your X5 on the Delvac 1 LE? Is there auto regenerating (closed) DPF?

ps. about TBN and TAN I fully agree - sometimes TBN can be high on UOA but oil can be done and wear can be high - especially used "longlife".
 
I am sure that Delvac 1 LE is Group IV because of its' very low pour point (-51C). VI is 161. Most Gp. IIIs are ~150. I do not know NOACK but note it has a very high flash point so I suspect volatility (related to NOACK) is low.
I don't have a UOA on the X5 on the Delvac 1 yet, I may have one by the end of the year. I have two similar UOAs on the Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W30 which are disappointingly similar; both have TBN =1.5 at 9 and 10000 mi. The one at 10K had TAN = 4.83. Soot was 0.6 and 0.9% so I don't think soot buildup will be a problem even with 15K mi OCI.
The X5 has regenerating DPF along with high flow EGR and also urea/SCR convertor.

Charlie
 
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