Group V ester versus Group IV PAO - head to head
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My vote too!!
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Trying to characterize the performance of a motor oil strictly by its base oil composition is an entertaining but academic game.
Tom NJ
THAT gets my vote for quote of the year.
+1!
Glad to see you posting here again Tom. Your posts are always most insightful.
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Trying to characterize the performance of a motor oil strictly by its base oil composition is an entertaining but academic game.
Tom NJ
THAT gets my vote for quote of the year.
+1!
Glad to see you posting here again Tom. Your posts are always most insightful.
Ditto on that Tom.
I'm copying this here so I don't lose it.
It's info about polyol ester, from Hatco.
After reading this, I'm feeling even more comfortable now to try RLI Bio-Syn in my Camry in September.
In our family of polyol ester, you find high purity dipentaerythritol, pentaerythritol and trimethylolpropane esters for use in applications where thermal stability, high viscosity index and lubricity are essential. Typical usages include raw material for spin finishers and oiling agents, lubricants, lubricating oil, and as jet engine lubricants.
The term "polyol esters" is short for neopentyl polyol esters which are made by reacting monobasic fatty acids with polyhedric alcohols having a "neopentyl" structure. The unique feature of the neopentyl structure of polyol alcohols molecules is the fact that there are no hydrogens on the beta-carbon. As a result, polyol esters usually have added polarity, reduced volatility and enhanced lubricity characteristics. This makes polyol esters ideally suited for the higher temperature applications where the performance of diesters and PAOs may fade.
Hatco uses many different acids and alcohols for manufacturing polyol esters and an even greater number of permutations are possible due to the multiple ester linkages. The difference in ester properties as they relate to the alcohols are primarily those related to molecular weight such as viscosity, pour point, flash point, and volatility. The versatility in designing these fluids is mainly related to the selection and mix of the acids esterified onto the alcohols.
The major application for polyol esters is jet engine lubricants where they have been used exclusively for more than 30 years. In this application, the oil is expected to flow at -54 C, pump readily at -40 C, and withstand sump temperature approaching 200 C with drain intervals measured in years. Only polyol esters have been found to satisfy this demanding application.
Polyol esters are also the ester of choice for blending with PAOs in passenger car motor oils. This application reduces fuel consumption and lowers volatility in modern specifications. They are used in 2-cycle oils for the same reasons plus biodegradability.
Polyol esters are used extensively in synthetic refrigeration lubricants due to their miscibility with non-chlorine refrigerants. They are also widely used in a variety of very high temperature applications such as industrial oven chains, stationary turbine engines, high temperature grease, fire resistant transformer coolants, fire resistant hydraulic fluids, and textile lubricants.
Link:
http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/syntheticlubes/polyolesters.htm
It's info about polyol ester, from Hatco.
After reading this, I'm feeling even more comfortable now to try RLI Bio-Syn in my Camry in September.
In our family of polyol ester, you find high purity dipentaerythritol, pentaerythritol and trimethylolpropane esters for use in applications where thermal stability, high viscosity index and lubricity are essential. Typical usages include raw material for spin finishers and oiling agents, lubricants, lubricating oil, and as jet engine lubricants.
The term "polyol esters" is short for neopentyl polyol esters which are made by reacting monobasic fatty acids with polyhedric alcohols having a "neopentyl" structure. The unique feature of the neopentyl structure of polyol alcohols molecules is the fact that there are no hydrogens on the beta-carbon. As a result, polyol esters usually have added polarity, reduced volatility and enhanced lubricity characteristics. This makes polyol esters ideally suited for the higher temperature applications where the performance of diesters and PAOs may fade.
Hatco uses many different acids and alcohols for manufacturing polyol esters and an even greater number of permutations are possible due to the multiple ester linkages. The difference in ester properties as they relate to the alcohols are primarily those related to molecular weight such as viscosity, pour point, flash point, and volatility. The versatility in designing these fluids is mainly related to the selection and mix of the acids esterified onto the alcohols.
The major application for polyol esters is jet engine lubricants where they have been used exclusively for more than 30 years. In this application, the oil is expected to flow at -54 C, pump readily at -40 C, and withstand sump temperature approaching 200 C with drain intervals measured in years. Only polyol esters have been found to satisfy this demanding application.
Polyol esters are also the ester of choice for blending with PAOs in passenger car motor oils. This application reduces fuel consumption and lowers volatility in modern specifications. They are used in 2-cycle oils for the same reasons plus biodegradability.
Polyol esters are used extensively in synthetic refrigeration lubricants due to their miscibility with non-chlorine refrigerants. They are also widely used in a variety of very high temperature applications such as industrial oven chains, stationary turbine engines, high temperature grease, fire resistant transformer coolants, fire resistant hydraulic fluids, and textile lubricants.
Link:
http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/syntheticlubes/polyolesters.htm
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If price was no object only performance then my list of oils used in my vechiles would be fairly short Redline,Motul 300V,Fuchs Titan,Neo,Torco,VP-Raceing and that would make up all my first picks why they are all either fully ester based or heavily ester based.
My Runner's up would be Amsoil S3K,Mobil-1,Synergen 3W30LTS,JGR,
What I use right now if their are no "buy one get one" sales on oil:M1 0W40,M1 10W30,40 HM,M1 15W50, RTS 5W40.
What oil do I think represents the best all around blend of charteristics for the most consistent great performance in 99% of applications in North AMerica????Amsoil S3K 5W30! If Amsoil would sell this stuff retail and cut out their stupid MLM systme and their prefered customer program I would use nothing but this in everything I own!!! I truly think it is the most consitent high performance oil we see on this site when used consistently!!!
My Runner's up would be Amsoil S3K,Mobil-1,Synergen 3W30LTS,JGR,
What I use right now if their are no "buy one get one" sales on oil:M1 0W40,M1 10W30,40 HM,M1 15W50, RTS 5W40.
What oil do I think represents the best all around blend of charteristics for the most consistent great performance in 99% of applications in North AMerica????Amsoil S3K 5W30! If Amsoil would sell this stuff retail and cut out their stupid MLM systme and their prefered customer program I would use nothing but this in everything I own!!! I truly think it is the most consitent high performance oil we see on this site when used consistently!!!
Hey Pablo have you ever been able to find out ball park average how much G-V is in S3K a few years ago when it first came out I speculated that it was at least 20% G-V and the rest GIV. Was I close to right?
Quote:
After reading this, I'm feeling even more comfortable now to try RLI Bio-Syn in my Camry in September.
But it contains 60-70% PAO which is supposedly bad for seals...LOL.
And do we know that the RLI esters are POE?
After reading this, I'm feeling even more comfortable now to try RLI Bio-Syn in my Camry in September.
But it contains 60-70% PAO which is supposedly bad for seals...LOL.
And do we know that the RLI esters are POE?
[Chuckle] I never said PAO was bad for seals. I simply quoted someone who wrote that PAO has a tendency to shrink seals (if not combined with esters)
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Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
What oil do I think represents the best all around blend of charteristics for the most consistent great performance in 99% of applications in North AMerica????Amsoil S3K 5W30! If Amsoil would sell this stuff retail and cut out their stupid MLM systme and their prefered customer program I would use nothing but this in everything I own!!!
What oil do I think represents the best all around blend of charteristics for the most consistent great performance in 99% of applications in North AMerica????Amsoil S3K 5W30! If Amsoil would sell this stuff retail and cut out their stupid MLM systme and their prefered customer program I would use nothing but this in everything I own!!!
On a previous post today, I indicated that AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 motor oil has worked phenomenally well in my 1993 Ford Escort station wagon (over 212,000 miles). I suspect that the discontinued Series 2000 20W-50 was a combination PAO/ester (POE?) blend. I've also had phenomenal success with the older formulations (high ZDDP levels--1200 pm or higher) of AMSOIL 0W-30 (Grp. IV/V blend) and 10W-40 (Grp. IV) motor oils for the past 24 years. However, the newer formulations (below 10W-40, except for the 5W-30 Series 3000) have much lower ZDDP (800 ppm or lower).
The newer formulated 10W-40 and 20W-50 Premium Protection motor oils have high ZDDP levels (1200 ppm zinc and 1300 ppm phosphorous) but no friction modifiers are are Grp. IV (PAO) formulations. I confirmed this with Dan Peterson, AMSOIL' current Technical Services Dept. Director.
I've also talked with and visited Dave Granquist of Redline Oil (in nearby Benicia), who kindly gave me a tour of the facilities. Basically, Redline uses PAO as an additive carrier oil with all of the remainder being POE (Polyol Ester). Dave would not say the percentages involved (understandable proprietary info.) However, I would suspect a 15-25% Grp. IV (PAO) and 75-85% POE (Polyol Ester) formulation. Redline claims 10,000-18,000 / 1 year oil change intervals (depending on the type of driving involved). Per Redline, a top quality oil filter should be changed every 7,000-10,000 miles (depeding on the type of driving) to insure that filter durability is not a problem.
My very careful research of both AMSOIL and Redline lubricant literature reveals the following interesting points:
1. Redline 5W-30 through 20W-50 viscosity grades have flash points that are consistently 30-40 degrees higher, F, than comparable viscosity grades. This may translate into superior oxidation and high temperature control, esp. in the upper cylinder ring area of the engine.
2. Most AMSOIL lubricants have consistently much higher TBN numbers (10.6-13.2) than Redline lubricants (8-11.5). This can translate into safer, longer drain intervals.
3. All Redline motor oil viscosity grades use friction modifiers for superior gas mileage. AMSOIL lower viscosity gasoline engine motor oils (0W-20 through 10W-30) use friction modifiers. However, current AMSOIL 10W-40 and 20W-50 viscosity grades for gasoline engines do NOT have friction modifiers.
AMSOIL claims that their lubricants uniformly help engines to "run 20-50 degrees,F, cooler." Redline claims that their motor oils effectively handle much higher engine temperatures.
Because of certain recent AMSOIL formulation changes and product discontinuances, I am in "the valley of decision" regarding possible use of Redline lubricants and other products in my vehicles.
Hope this information helps.
The newer formulated 10W-40 and 20W-50 Premium Protection motor oils have high ZDDP levels (1200 ppm zinc and 1300 ppm phosphorous) but no friction modifiers are are Grp. IV (PAO) formulations. I confirmed this with Dan Peterson, AMSOIL' current Technical Services Dept. Director.
I've also talked with and visited Dave Granquist of Redline Oil (in nearby Benicia), who kindly gave me a tour of the facilities. Basically, Redline uses PAO as an additive carrier oil with all of the remainder being POE (Polyol Ester). Dave would not say the percentages involved (understandable proprietary info.) However, I would suspect a 15-25% Grp. IV (PAO) and 75-85% POE (Polyol Ester) formulation. Redline claims 10,000-18,000 / 1 year oil change intervals (depending on the type of driving involved). Per Redline, a top quality oil filter should be changed every 7,000-10,000 miles (depeding on the type of driving) to insure that filter durability is not a problem.
My very careful research of both AMSOIL and Redline lubricant literature reveals the following interesting points:
1. Redline 5W-30 through 20W-50 viscosity grades have flash points that are consistently 30-40 degrees higher, F, than comparable viscosity grades. This may translate into superior oxidation and high temperature control, esp. in the upper cylinder ring area of the engine.
2. Most AMSOIL lubricants have consistently much higher TBN numbers (10.6-13.2) than Redline lubricants (8-11.5). This can translate into safer, longer drain intervals.
3. All Redline motor oil viscosity grades use friction modifiers for superior gas mileage. AMSOIL lower viscosity gasoline engine motor oils (0W-20 through 10W-30) use friction modifiers. However, current AMSOIL 10W-40 and 20W-50 viscosity grades for gasoline engines do NOT have friction modifiers.
AMSOIL claims that their lubricants uniformly help engines to "run 20-50 degrees,F, cooler." Redline claims that their motor oils effectively handle much higher engine temperatures.
Because of certain recent AMSOIL formulation changes and product discontinuances, I am in "the valley of decision" regarding possible use of Redline lubricants and other products in my vehicles.
Hope this information helps.
Redline's use of PAO as an additive carrier oil is new information. If that is accurate, then Redline is perhaps the only pure Group IV/V synthetic on the market. I had always assumed that even the most expensive synthetics used a petroleum based additive carrier oil. I am now even more impressed with Redline.
Both are excellent oils with slightly different formulation strategies. Amsoil is tailored a bit more for extended drain intervals using high amounts of dispersant/detergents. Both handle heat extremely well. I wouldn't automatically assume Redline is better because it uses a Group V base oil. It's far more complicated than that. Additives are crucial.
From Lubrizol.
Quote:
Although most components are sold as complete performance packages, we can also help oil marketers custom formulate oils with special performance characteristics to help differentiate their products in the marketplace.
From Lubrizol.
Quote:
Although most components are sold as complete performance packages, we can also help oil marketers custom formulate oils with special performance characteristics to help differentiate their products in the marketplace.
http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/Artic...nce_engine.aspx
This link addresses a lot of your questions.
This link addresses a lot of your questions.
It is dangerous for modern seals and gaskets (I have FORD 2006 and Mazda 2005) 100% ester-based oils (MOTUL 300V), which can soften overly seals and turn them into jelly (gel)?
If this is rumor, then from what year FORD began to use gaskets of new generation, not withering on the PAO and not softened by Esther?
If this is rumor, then from what year FORD began to use gaskets of new generation, not withering on the PAO and not softened by Esther?
I am the individual who posted my research of both AMSOIL and Redline MO products back in the spring of 2009. I used Redline MO products in our family's 4 cylinder vehicles--2004 Saturn Vue [5W-30], 1994 Saturn SL2 [10W-40] and 1993 Escort [20W-50]. We had extremely severe high MO usage rates using RedLine MO products [2 qts. per 1,000 mi.!!!!). This problem went away as soon as we went back to using AMSOIL products (5W-30 XL - Vue, 10W-40 AMO - Saturn, and 20W-50 AMO - Escort).
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