Help for my Dad's car: 2004 Citroen Xsara

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1. What kind of vehicle you have?
2004 (?) Citroen Xsara Picasso (Minivan version) with the 1.6l turbo diesel engine producing 110 HP (supposedly more boost than the 90 HP version).
2. What your owner's manual says -- not just viscosity, but certifications (look for acronyms like API SM, ILSAC GF-4, etc.) and change intervals as well?
From what I remember reading in the owner manual:
Required A3/B3 or A5/B5 oil. The oil sump is about 4 liters.
3. Where you live?
France, close to Paris.
4. How you drive (easy? hard? fast? slow?)?
He drives it hard as he doesn’t drive conservatively while the car warms up, but short shift to save fuel. Doesn’t allow for the turbo to cool down in the last kilometers after a long drive.
5. What your daily drive is like (short trips? long trips? city? highway?)?
Annual driving is about 10.000 miles more or less. A little more than 7.000 miles are highway driving from their home near Paris to my mom countryside house which is about 350 kms away. They go over there for a few days, about every 3-4 weeks. The rest of the driving is short trips: really short trips (less than 2 kms to go downtown) or errands (going pick up my brother's children for the day (15 kms one way), going see friends for a dinner, or going for some shopping).
6. Whether your car has any known problems?
About one year ago, my dad’s car got an Engine Light on. Since it happened in the Alps, after the car sat for few days and that the light went off after that, he did not take care of it.
Since then, he got the Engine Light on several times, usually after a cold night. Near Paris, cold night means about 30 F, humid.
So, he went to the dealer the next day to get it check, but since the light was off, the mechanic could not pull any code (Is that normal?).
Another time, he got the Engine Light on, so he went directly to the dealership in order to get the code pulled out. This time. they charge him for pulling the code (quite expensive to erase a code), and told him that the turbo could have calamine in it (code was related to the turbo, no more info on that), as he was babying the car too much, short shifting to save fuel. He told him to do some redlining on 2nd and 3rd when the engine is warm enough in order to help the situation.
Question
Currently the dealer puts Total Ineo 5w-30 A5/B5 Energy Conserving bulk oil (I am not sure, that is the 1 liter bottle he is giving him for top off with the oil change), and I am wondering whether this oil is strong enough for the way my dad drives his car.

My look of it is that he drives the car too hard when it is still cold but after that he short shifts the first 3 gears in order to improve his fuel economy. The other thing is that he doesn’t allow his turbo to cool down and I am wondering if part of his problem is that some oil cooked in the turbo bearings.

He did some Italian tuning as the mechanic told him, but only after 5 minutes of driving (coolant was up to temp). I told him the oil was not hot yet, and to double the time or wait 20 minutes to do that.

Now, he said he will change his habits, doing some Italian tuning each time he goes on the highway, and start to cool down the turbo exiting the highway.

But, should he not use an A3/B3/B4 oil instead of an Energy Conserving A5/B5 oil?
Should he stay with a 0/5w-30 oil or move up to a 0/5w-40 oil instead?

PS: I saw that now, there are new categories too: C1, C2, C3, and C4.

Thanks for any help.
 
If the manual calls for an A rated oil then what he is using is fine. Total makes an excellent product. Can you find out what the owners manual say as for as the rating and viscosity recommendation for that car and engine.

Also, he would probably get better mileage and performance if he did not short the small diesel.
 
The "C" oils are low SPAsh (sulfur, phosphorus, ash) oils. In my opinion, compromises to protect emission equipment your dad's Euro 3 car does not have.
If I had that car here in North America I would use Mobil 1 0W40, which is an A3/B3/B4 oil. There aren't many direct competitors to this oil and it is readily available in Europe as well.
Citroen has always prided itself on parsimonious fuel economy (which appeals to the French market!). Which is the reason for the A5/B5 spec IMHO.

Charlie
 
Hi Pesca,
You might find this document helpful:
http://ftp.psyborg.rpg.pl/biuletyny/(2005) C4_xsara_picasso_berlingo.pdf
The engine designation is DV6,engine code 9H* .
Sump capacity 3.75l. ;min/max on the dipstick-1,55l.
http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.html?attachmentId=685547
Various sources on the net will confirm that PSA prescribes
-5w-40 ACEA A3/B4
-10w-40 ACEA A3/B4
-5w-30 ACEA A5/B5 C2 oils
…all these for cars with or without FAP(DPF)-a couple of years ago PSA oil recommendations were changed and now they list oils with HT/HS http://www.mobil.com/UK-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Super_3000_Formula_P_5W-30.aspx
…as backward-compatible with older equipment . Ford has been using 5w-30 energy-conserving oils for quite some time(as you know,dv6 engine is Ford/PSA cooperation and used on various brands and models)…and while Ford used EC oils in these engines from the very beginning, PSA still recommended A3/B4 oils in the same engine.
Is the engine DPF(FAP) equipped(I think the motor code would be 9HZ in this case)? Either way, many oils to pick from…
This one I think would give an extra protection while keeping close to the usual MPG(and not harm the FAP,if fitted)..heh ,now it`s PSA approved too:
http://www.mobil.com/France-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_ESP_Formula_5W-30.aspx

If it`s FAP-free,well-any quality synthetic of the recommended viscosities( SAE 0w-30 is prohibited).

However there’s another thing to consider (may or may not be related to the engine fault light)…

http://c4owners.org/plugins/faq/faq.php?0.cat.5.110
http://site.scrollproducts.com/en/news/ford/45-problemy-z-turbosprezarka-ford-fiesta-16l
A PSA bulletin:
http://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2010/06/10/zkw8y4c/dv6-ber.pdf
……….
http://www.france-info.com/chroniques-la...847-81-423.html

http://www.forum-peugeot.com/Forum/forum...jet_34601_2.htm

http://www.forum-auto.com/marques/citroen/sujet17901.htm
…my French is very poor


I`d have it inspected for the symptoms listed in the files above, just to be sure.
 
Thanks a lot for those detailed answers:

Johnny: I agree, sometimes trying to save some $$ on fuel, you will end up being big $$$ on repairs. And I am a culprit of that practice as well (the apple never falls far from the tree
wink.gif
).

Charlie: I was on the same line as you as recommending a tougher oil for my dad, seeing how he uses his car, but after reading Rollins' post, I am wondering if that would do more harm than good. Looks like, even without a FAP (or DPF in English, I believe), the car would be better with a low ash oil (Citroen recommends a C2 oil in a Total presentation)in order to preserve the EGR and the turbo oil pipe gauze. What do you think? Is using a low ash oil, even with shortening the OCIs could help resolving the problem?

Rollins: Thanks a lot for all this information, that helps me a lot. I heard there were problems with this engine, but I did not know it was so widespread, and so bad (turbo failing again after few miles). In one of the forum link in french (mine is quite good, I can even understand the SMS french
wink.gif
), a Citroen mechanic explained how calamine from the injectors went to block the oil feeding of the turbo.
In your own opinion, do you think my dad's car needs a sump removal and cleaning of all the turbo pipes and gauze as the Citroen TSB shows, or is there a way to avoid the $$ repair and clean it slowly, by using another type of oil for example? Is cleaning the injectors and remove the calamine on them be enough?



From what I understand, the Citroen dealer is using Total Ineo MC3 in my dad's car, where they should use a Total Ineo ECS oil instead (C2 instead of C3 rating).
First of all, I will recommend my dad to ask for the proper oil next OC. Should I tell him to shorten the intervals as well (10.000kms instead of the 1 year, about 15.000kms)?
I will recommend also to check the oil more often and top it off right away instead of waiting for the OC, and do some italian tuning (WOT on intermediate gearing when engine is well warmed up) everytime he can.
Do you see other useful recommendations? Injectors cleaning by the dealer, performing the Citroen TSB?

Thanks again for all your help
 
Pesca,
If I were to chose, I’d prefer the INEO MC3 ACEA C3 (HT/HS>3,5cP) to the INEO ECS ACEA C2 version
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/lang_1/5832.pdf
…so thumbs up to the dealer service on this. Hm, if it’s FAP-free one could consider other oil options as well…yeah,M1 0w-40 would be one of the favorites…
If the car is serviced by the local PSA dealer, I’d presume that the personnel are well aware of the problem with this engine family and know how to proceed (and to avoid the suction method on OCI,of course). Anyway, R&R of the oil feed pipe wouldn’t be that expensive even at the dealer …and checking the condition of the pipe innards, the banjo bolt plastic mesh screen (I’d have it changed/cleaned anyway..should be in banjo bolt #5 in the PSA Bulletin scheme) etc. would give a hint about anything problematic with the oil supply to the turbo.
If R&R of the lower oil pan is expensive at the dealer, I’d look for any independent garage to do it…if everything proved to be o.k., I’d keep the old one and try to maintain the oil level around ¾ of max. It goes without saying that your Dad’s habit of not letting the turbo cool down must change…and given the regular short trips ,a 10K km. oil change interval sounds more reasonable.
P.S. IMHO the injectors or the ash content of the oils are of no great relevance to the issue here (...and the manufacturer left the door open for other oil choices regardless of the aftertreatment equipment fitted). It sounds more like a OEM oil change recommendation too stretched for the sump capacity (2.2l. of oil left in the sump @ min. dipstick mark !!! in a 1.6l engine in a MPV...) -it just needs more attention and care.
 
Originally Posted By: Pesca

Charlie: I was on the same line as you as recommending a tougher oil for my dad, seeing how he uses his car, but after reading Rollins' post, I am wondering if that would do more harm than good. Looks like, even without a FAP (or DPF in English, I believe), the car would be better with a low ash oil (Citroen recommends a C2 oil in a Total presentation)in order to preserve the EGR and the turbo oil pipe gauze. What do you think? Is using a low ash oil, even with shortening the OCIs could help resolving the problem?



I honestly don't know enough about the idiosyncracies of late model Citroens to address this. My prejudice regarding "C" oils stems from evidence I have gathered in my wife's BMW X5 35d demonstating complete alkalinity depletion in one standard OCI. I am switching from Castrol SLX Profession OE to Delvac 1 LE, both 5W30, but the Delvac has almost double the TBN (12.6 vs 6.4) despite only 25% more ash and the same phosphorus. This observation may not apply at all to the Citroen, but since it does not have a urea catalyst of DPF "C" oils are not de rigeur.

Charlie
 
I am curious about your use of the word "calamine", where you say a mechanic diagnosed the turbo as having calamine in it. In English calamine is a mixture of zinc oxide and iron oxide (frequently found in lotions to treat skin rashes). I'm wondering if you meant "carbon" rather than "calamine" as I'm having trouble understanding where calamine might get into the turbo. Now carbon on the other hand, I can understand being in a turbo.
 
Well, I used Calamine as the french mechanic used specifically the french tern Calamine. In Google translate, Calamine in French is Calamine in English, that is why I re-used the same term.

As for what it really is, if you read the links that Rollins gave us (but I think it is in french), there is another french Citroen mechanic who explain what happened in the engine, still using the term Calamine.
To sum up, deposits form around the injectors. After a while, when they become heavy, they fall in the oil in the upper part of the engine, and the oil brings these deposits in the sump where they eventually clog the oil bleed pipe for the turbo.
He explains that on this engine, the injectors are in the middle in the upper part which see circulation of oil, where in other engines which still have these deposits, the injectors are on one side so the deposits are not washed by the oil and stay in the upper part of the engine.

Now, what are these deposits? I don't know, they did not say anything specific about it. But in a powerpoint presentation of Total (link thanks to Rollins again), Citroen recommends an oil with very low SAPS % (a C2 oil compare to C3 oil for other manufacturers). Ford using the same engine recommends a C1 oil.
There may be a link here, but I don't know for sure, I am not an expert, just a reader.

Hope this helps.
 
Interesting. I could see that perhaps calamine is a French idiom for some generic ash deposit (raw calamine would be a light flaky ash like mineral with slight pink hue). And that engine does call for a low ash oil, so maybe the mechanic is suggesting that you are getting ash deposit in your turbo, but you are already using a low ash oil I think, yes?

Thanks for the info. I find language translation very interesting and while Google Language has gotten much better over the years it sometimes does trip up over idiomatic word usage. Goodness knows some of the things we say in English must look very weird if translated word for word into another language.
 
Yes, my dad is already using a C3 oil and it seems to be the best choice as they are more robust, so they will handle better longer drain interval.

I believe, as my wife will certainly confirm to you, that a lot of french use words with another meaning in their minds, forgetting the roots of the word, or not knowing it.

From what I understand reading the french forum, is that they use the word Calamine more as dirt or deposit than specifically Calamine, as they probably don't know what composition Calamine is. They probably don't know exactly what these deposits are, Citroen headquarters would probably know by now.

This can bring some controversy when someone else thinks the speaker knows what he is talking about.
 
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