Chonda junk

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: kcfx4
argue all you want.....the chick came b4 the egg....were all 3 sayin its carb/fuel related


He is saying the gas is contaminated and dirty, and I'm saying it's not, works fine in other equipment and that the carburetor has a tendency to restrict. It's my gas and my equipment and I don't need him to keep telling me what he thinks from afar the situation really is.


I'm not say that your fuel was contaminated. I used that analogy as an example of fuel being the cause of a problem. Not the carb.

Your problem was fuel related in that it had probably dried up in the carb causing the float needle to stick thus the difficulty in starting.

The dried fuel/varnish would be established as the cause for carb failure if in fact the carburetor is running well now.

Claiming that it was "Chonda Junk" causing hard starting is more than a little off the mark.


OK but even so funny how it has only been the Honda/Chonda equipment that has had this problem. I tend to consider Honda/Chonda carbs junk but that's my opinion. Besides we are assuming here anyway, maybe some particle from the carb its self fell off and clogged the float need or jet nozzle.

 

[kcfx4]

i can tell ya honda carbs are under jetted, i did

 

[kcfx4]

its really like this....were arguen if chinese or japanese junk is best! but all jokes aside, you wont beat kawasaki in sm engines

 

[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: kcfx4
its really like this....were arguen if chinese or japanese junk is best! but all jokes aside, you wont beat kawasaki in sm engines



I've got a 15 h.p. Kawasaki 430F twin engine on my 2002 Husqvarna riding mower. I've also got a 16.5 h.p. Honda GX ohc engine on my 2005 Craftsman mower at camp. If I had to make a choice between the two of them, I'd have to lean toward the Kawasaki. Not that there's anything wrong with the Honda but it does take a bit of cranking to get it to fire up. The Kawasaki on the other hand will jump to life almost instantly and run like a top all day long. Great engine indeed.

 

[engineerscott]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
I'm not saying that your fuel was contaminated. I used that analogy as an example of fuel being the cause of a problem. Not the carb.

Your problem was fuel related in that it had probably dried up in the carb causing the float needle to stick thus the difficulty in starting.

The dried fuel/varnish would be established as the cause for carb failure if in fact the carburetor is running well now.

Claiming that it was "Chonda Junk" causing hard starting is more than a little off the mark.


^^^^^^ This


If the fuel evaporated in your carb and left varnish and stuck the float needle that isn't a carb failure in my book. Fact is, the same thing could have happened in your other equipment, but random odds being what they are, it didn't. Trust me, Briggs carbs will stick a needle valve just as well as any of them.

Now, I will admit that if the needle valve is significantly lighter (lower mass) than the one in the Briggs, then yes indeed it might be more prone to sticking (lower mass needle would require less varnish to stick). But, unless you take the Briggs and the Chonda carbs apart, we don't know what the differences are. Either that, or you establish a pattern over a couple of years where exactly the same thing happens to the Chonda and not to the Briggs. As it stands, you've got one anecdotal case to base your conclusion that "Chonda is junk" on and that's just not enough. You overstated what you could conclude from the evidence at hand.

 

[mechanicx]

I believe Honda carbs are known for hard starting issues, and that's been my experience vs Briggs. Also as I mentioned before a lot of other people have had various and similar issues with Chonda. I never intended or claimed to prove Honda/chonda "junk" or their carbs are hard starting or why Briggs don't see to have the issue as often. It's my opinion that they are hard starting prone and that it's my perogative to say Honda OPE carbs are junk. I don't like how their GCV carb falls off when you take the carb off either. It is assumption for anyone to say the fuel gummed up the float need stuck and it would happen to any carb. Boraticus said a lot of things in this thread, so I don't think anyone should pick out one of his posts and side with him.

 

[engineerscott]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I believe Honda carbs are known for hard starting issues, and that's been my experience vs Briggs. Also as I mentioned before a lot of other people have had various and similar issues with Chonda. I never intended or claimed to prove Honda/chonda "junk" or their carbs are hard starting or why Briggs don't see to have the issue as often. It's my opinion that they are hard starting prone and that it's my perogative to say Honda OPE carbs are junk. I don't like how their GCV carb falls off when you take the carb off either. It is assumption for anyone to say the fuel gummed up the float need stuck and it would happen to any carb. Boraticus said a lot of things in this thread, so I don't think anyone should pick out one of his posts and side with him.


My problem with this is that people can "believe" a lot of things. But what you believe and the facts can be two different things. There are all sorts of anecdotes, fables, half truths and even some things that are actually true out there in circulation. Unless you've got some factual basis for what you believe you're just repeating something that someone else said and they may not have known what the heck they were talking about.

I'm not trying to bash you are anything, it just that over the years I've heard so many often repeated "facts" that just weren't true.

Heck, if you really want to know, take the carbs apart and give them a look. It's usually not that hard to take a float valve out.

 

[boraticus]

"Boraticus said a lot of things in this thread, so I don't think anyone should pick out one of his posts and side with him."

Sooooo, lets see...

If we don't agree with you, we're not permitted to agree with each other?

The world don't work like that.

 

[mechanicx]

Well that might be all true and most people know that, but assumptions are being made on both sides. I believe Honda carbs are more prone to hard starting and have had to do more work on them and I prefer the carburetors on Briggs. Simple as that.

 

[01rangerxl]

Originally Posted By: kcfx4
I got out of the sm engine bus in 06, but at that time i wasnt so impressed w honda, i was selling scag tiger cubs w 24hp hondas, they surged like crazy (not under load) and was having complaints w walkbehinds w hondas too, so i called honda and asked what was going on, they replied that they were having epa issues, and their fix was to underjet the carb, granted under a load they ran fine. Not to mention i was selling Cub cadet big countrys (UTV's) powered by hondas not running right, again called honda, ran engine serial nums, come to find out those engines were designed to be on generators running @ a set RPM. On to techumse, their snokings were good, but all in all a lackluster engine maker, i think ppl should give chondas a chance, The LCT seems quite impressive

Your experience reflects mine pretty well.

I have seen smaller Honda engines exhibit similar problems. The only push mowers we really see having surging issues with no load are Hondas.

Lots of lower end UTVs have generator type engines on them. We work on a lot of American Sportsworks UTVs with Robin engines. These same basic engines work great on generators. They run like garbage on the slow [censored] Bulldog UTVs we get in. Weak, backfiring, fouling spark plugs, generally running like [censored], etc.

I agree that Tecumseh engines are mostly junk. I have heard good things about their snow blower engines, but I don't have any experience with those. I am quite familiar with junk Tecumseh mower engines though. Lots of carb problems, and coil problems too. Customers hate the repair estimates too...parts got expensive after they went out of business.

LCT engines are great. Very few problems, and you can't go wrong with Stens as a distributor/parts supplier.

 

[engineerscott]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I believe Honda carbs are known for hard starting issues, and that's been my experience vs Briggs. Also as I mentioned before a lot of other people have had various and similar issues with Chonda. I never intended or claimed to prove Honda/chonda "junk" or their carbs are hard starting or why Briggs don't see to have the issue as often. It's my opinion that they are hard starting prone and that it's my perogative to say Honda OPE carbs are junk. I don't like how their GCV carb falls off when you take the carb off either. It is assumption for anyone to say the fuel gummed up the float need stuck and it would happen to any carb. Boraticus said a lot of things in this thread, so I don't think anyone should pick out one of his posts and side with him.


I'll stop flogging this dead horse, I promise

However, I did want to say that in my experience Honda motors have historically been known for their ease of starting. At least that was the case as recently as 10 years ago and was the case for a couple of decades before that, at least with respect to their push mower line. Perhaps that has changed in the last 10 years (maybe California's crazy EPA regs have caused issues, though I thought those were in place in 2001).

After a Tecumshe (yeah, they are bad) and then a B&S Quantum powered walk behind lawn mower (purchased in 1994) I vowed to buy something that didn't take 10 or 15 minutes to start (if that's an exaggeration it's slight) so I spent a little more and got a Honda Harmony walk behind in 2001 (not their very top of the line BTW). It has given stellar performance. It's the 5hp model, I forget the actual engine model number. It consistently cranks on one pull, even after sitting idle from the first of November to about the middle/end of February (we have a long mowing season where I live). It's been running without a hitch since spring 2001. When I bought it Honda had a reputation as being the easiest pull start engine to crank and I have not been disappointed.

The only time I've had an issue was after the first year that E10 really went to 10% ethanol versus the ethanol because it cranked right up after dosing it with about a tablespoon full (I don't see how it could have "de-gummed" a carb so quickly - it literally cranked after the 2nd or 3rd pull after that). Since then I've used ethanol free fuel and haven't had any issues.

This spring will be 10 years on this mower and it runs like new. Starts on the first pull and has plenty of power. In fact at 5HP, it feels like it has more power than the 6HP B&S Quantum that it replaced. My mower gets a good workout since we have a long mowing season and I've got more than 2/3rds of an acre that gets cut every week (sometimes every 5 days) for a lot of the mowing season (say April through September). So, unless Honda engines have dramatically changed in the last 10 years I plan on buying a new one if this one ever wears out.

 

[mechanicx]

My experience is almost the opposite of yours. Briggs that don't give starting or carburetor issues and Hondas that do. Not that I am discounting it at all as I don't discount others who have reported hard starting Hondas. And if I had your experience I would probably have a different view of Honda OPE engines. My Honda GCV model is about a 2000 model. It was never easy to start and after only a season or two I had to disassemble the carb to get it to start at all. It doesn't start in cold temperatures as well either. It has also since almost new surged and smokes on start up (a synthetic or heaver grade oil helped here). And I mentioned the carburetor falls off when the air cleaner housing is unbolted. I don't like the timing belt for the GCVs either. The mower was just expensive and turned out to be a disappointment.

I have three Briggs equiped power equipment that always start easy, one that is 20 years old and basically abused in maintenance and storage and it has always started even on a cold day. My newer Briggs 2 seasons old starts on the first pull and is even called EZ start lol. If I'm not mistaken Toro had a 2 pull guarantee and used Briggs engines.

What I would credit the Hondas for is fuel efficiency and quiter exhaust but that's about it. I'm not an OPE mechanic with lots of OPE experience, but have worked and owned a few.

I'm not sure if Techron could degumming the carb that quickly either but I think it would be an easy and effective way to eventually degum it. I agree with a lot of things you post and agree that E10 causes problems. There's a lot of variable at play model years etc but from what I have seen and experienced it appears the Honda has/had leaner fuel trim and tendency to gum up vs the Briggs. And this Chonda snowblower issue just added to the suspicion.

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: engineerscott

I dumped in some Techron injector cleaner I had laying around and I'm fairly certain that the extra alcohol in the Techron was enough to re-solublize the water/ethanol because it cranked right up after dosing it with about a tablespoon full (I don't see how it could have "de-gummed" a carb so quickly - it literally cranked after the 2nd or 3rd pull after that). Since then I've used ethanol free fuel and haven't had any issues./quote]


To my knowledge, Techron contains no alchohol and makes no claim to absorb water. MSDS's are available online from the 1990's to present.

This kind of shoots a big hole in your theory and credibility. Also, again to my knowledge, it is VERY difficult to "reconstitute" phase separated gasoline.

I'm guessing that something was plugged up or stuck in the fuel system and it was coincidence that it freed up upon adding the Techron. Just a guess.

The boating/marine forums claim E-10 has been devastaing. In researching it's use, it seems that most problems can be avoided by improved fuel management. In mechanicx case, I think(?) his point is that the honda/chonda carbs are more prone to the effects of less than perfect fuel management compared to other engines. The solution seems to be either to buy other engine brands or manage your fuel even more carefully.

Managing the fuel seems like a good alternative. Storing a mower over winter (cold) is easier on the fuel than storing a snow blower over summer (heat)...oxidation of the fuel,humidity, etc..

Just my thoughts. Hoping we can share and learn.

 

[unDummy]

Concerning Techron, that the power of PEA.

Manage your fuel? Thanks. Add that to the 'to do' list is what some will think.

I do agree that fuel mismanagement causes most, if not all, small engine carb issues. Some of my neighbors are proof of that.

 

[engineerscott]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
To my knowledge, Techron contains no alchohol and makes no claim to absorb water. MSDS's are available online from the 1990's to present.

This kind of shoots a big hole in your theory and credibility. Also, again to my knowledge, it is VERY difficult to "reconstitute" phase separated gasoline.


I looked at the MSDS and in fact it does not list any alcohols as a component so I misspoke.

Looking at the MSDS, all I see are light aromatic hydrocarbons and Stoddard's Solvent, none of which are miscible in water. However, Chevron has always claimed that Techron contains polyetheramine, which isn't totally descriptive, but I believe that most PEAs are miscible in water. We all know that companies can play games with MSDSs and they do retain some right to maintain trade secrets, at least on public MSDSs (unless a particular individual can demonstrate a "need to know"). I don't see anything on the MSDS that looks like a disguised PEA, but those guys can get pretty creative. Perhaps PEA is no longer a component or perhaps it is and is considered a trade secret.

In any case, if PEA is still present, I could see it re-solubilizing water/ethanol back into solution. Not knowing exactly which PEA we're talking about makes it hard to say anything with any certainty, that's for sure. It certainly would be a desirable feature for a product like Techron.

On my experience with the Techron and the Honda motor in question, the action was suspiciously like separated water+ethanol was being resolubilized back into solution. I had the engine running at a very rough idle, coughing and sputtering and refusing to throttle up to normal operating RPMs. I did this for some time (several minutes at least). Without shutting off the engine, I opened the gas cap and poured perhaps a half an ounce to an ounce of Techron in. The effect was almost like switching on a light. Literally within a couple of seconds the engine throttled to normal RPMs and smoothed out. Could a piece of debris have simply been purged coincidentally? Certainly, but it seemed unlikely because of the timing. I also had a hard time believing that Techron was so good that it actually removed varnish within a few seconds (I could be wrong about that too, if so it's a tremendous product). But, since the engine was roughly running while I poured the Techron in the tank, it was being shaken fairly well and would mix rapidly and it seemed possible that something in the Techron had managed to resolubilized separated water/ethanol that quickly. Perhaps I made an incorrect conclusion but it seemed the most reasonable at the time. I did assume that Techron has some alcohol present (IPA would have been my guess) but I do agree from the MSDS that that seems to not be true.

 

[QuadDriver]

Without reading this entire thread, has anyone considered the effects that what we run for fuel, is no longer fuel?

at 10% ethanol, the energy content of the fuel is changed significantly enuf to warrant jetting changes, as well as vapor pressure concerns to warrant a re-thinking of the choke device, and we are not talking about the water content issue.

with your EFI car and O2 sensors and adaptive programming - not an issue.

I recommend, and Im just spitballing here - running pure gas like coleman fuel. sure, the AKI is down, but the requirements for power equipment motor are a mon/ron average in the 70's. that current $8/gallon scares me tho.

In the cold, I cannot start my garden tractor to save my life (its been in the teens here) UNLESS, I put a propane torch (unlit of course) in the intake. I do that - boom it fires up.

until congress gets a clue (which may be never), open your jetting an extra half turn in the winter.

 

[engineerscott]

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver

..... until congress gets a clue (which may be never), open your jetting an extra half turn in the winter.


If we're waiting for Congress to get a clue, we may indeed be here a long time. As they say, only two things last forever .... diamonds and a government program.