The Disadvantages to using a larger oil filter?
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Originally Posted By: sayjac
The one specific example I can think of is the 14612 size vs 14610 size. Many Nissans spec the "shorty" (2 in. length and media area, that it's hard to imagine that it wouldn't be an improvement, but it's not an extreme change.
What's very strange about the Nissans is that they spec the larger filter for the 4 cylinder and the shorter filter for the V6 (14612 size). You think it would be the other way around. I was told that it was because of "clearance" issues, but I've used the 14610 and 14459 filters on the V6 with not clearance problems.
The one specific example I can think of is the 14612 size vs 14610 size. Many Nissans spec the "shorty" (2 in. length and media area, that it's hard to imagine that it wouldn't be an improvement, but it's not an extreme change.
What's very strange about the Nissans is that they spec the larger filter for the 4 cylinder and the shorter filter for the V6 (14612 size). You think it would be the other way around. I was told that it was because of "clearance" issues, but I've used the 14610 and 14459 filters on the V6 with not clearance problems.
I'm sorry if you took it personal. But like I said in the PM many more people read this forum than post here and then quote us in their forums since we are known to be more factual than other sites.
We have always over the years called out things that people do or suggest others do that could get illegal or dishonest. Taking a filter off once something happens and then putting on a new one will get a stealership asking hard questions that I'd hate to see anyone have to answer. IF the vehicle has "issues" then let them fix it. Please don't give them an inch to question what any member has done. Many times you will not have the chance to change out the filter before its towed.
Better thing is if its under warranty, then use something that you can point at is recommended for the actual unit and let the stealership and the mfg of the recommended filter hash it out.
Just my comments and I do apologize to River Rat if I came off harsh. I've spent many years here trying to keep the site factual and people who browse here to get safe advise.
Bill
We have always over the years called out things that people do or suggest others do that could get illegal or dishonest. Taking a filter off once something happens and then putting on a new one will get a stealership asking hard questions that I'd hate to see anyone have to answer. IF the vehicle has "issues" then let them fix it. Please don't give them an inch to question what any member has done. Many times you will not have the chance to change out the filter before its towed.
Better thing is if its under warranty, then use something that you can point at is recommended for the actual unit and let the stealership and the mfg of the recommended filter hash it out.
Just my comments and I do apologize to River Rat if I came off harsh. I've spent many years here trying to keep the site factual and people who browse here to get safe advise.
Bill
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Just noticed the OP video. Funny thing about that is, the 01 Civic first went to the smaller 14610 filter for that year. The dealer was still selling/using the larger 14459 that was used in the previous years. Did so for some time because they couldn't get the smaller filter. I know because I bought several and had oc from dealer. Sort of ironic.
There is only at the most 15% more volume in the 14459 anyway. And as we both know, the 14459 actually has less media area.
Just noticed the OP video. Funny thing about that is, the 01 Civic first went to the smaller 14610 filter for that year. The dealer was still selling/using the larger 14459 that was used in the previous years. Did so for some time because they couldn't get the smaller filter. I know because I bought several and had oc from dealer. Sort of ironic.
There is only at the most 15% more volume in the 14459 anyway. And as we both know, the 14459 actually has less media area.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I've spent many years here trying to keep the site factual and people who browse here to get safe advise.
We certainly appreciate that.
On the filter issue, I would say that upsizing a filter would provide insignificant advantages, at best. That is assuming that there aren't any detrimental effects to flow, ADBV availability, and/or bypass settings.
I can't think of any modern vehicle where the factory specified filter (or a properly specified aftermarket filter) is a problem. Upsizing your filter isn't going to make the engine last significantly longer. Properly maintained (and assuming there aren't design issues), the engine is going to outlast the rest of the car.
I've spent many years here trying to keep the site factual and people who browse here to get safe advise.
We certainly appreciate that.
On the filter issue, I would say that upsizing a filter would provide insignificant advantages, at best. That is assuming that there aren't any detrimental effects to flow, ADBV availability, and/or bypass settings.
I can't think of any modern vehicle where the factory specified filter (or a properly specified aftermarket filter) is a problem. Upsizing your filter isn't going to make the engine last significantly longer. Properly maintained (and assuming there aren't design issues), the engine is going to outlast the rest of the car.
Originally Posted By: Garak
On the filter issue, I would say that upsizing a filter would provide insignificant advantages, at best. That is assuming that there aren't any detrimental effects to flow, ADBV availability, and/or bypass settings.
The main reason I do it (if I can), is to ensure the filter has less pressure drop due to more flow media area, and it also helps to give the filter more holding capacity.
Both of those enhanced factors help ensure the bypass valve doesn't go open as often, or even at all.
On the filter issue, I would say that upsizing a filter would provide insignificant advantages, at best. That is assuming that there aren't any detrimental effects to flow, ADBV availability, and/or bypass settings.
The main reason I do it (if I can), is to ensure the filter has less pressure drop due to more flow media area, and it also helps to give the filter more holding capacity.
Both of those enhanced factors help ensure the bypass valve doesn't go open as often, or even at all.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There is only at the most 15% more volume in the 14459 anyway. And as we both know, the 14459 actually has less media area.
True, and the 14610 isn't much larger than the 14612. But, since the discussion had taken a turn towards a using larger than spec'd filter while under warranty, thought I'd point out that a Honda dealer had actually done it for a period of time. Also, the Honda engineer in the vid, had commented an benefits/advantages of using a smaller filter.
I didn't think the dealer using the larger filter an issue though.
There is only at the most 15% more volume in the 14459 anyway. And as we both know, the 14459 actually has less media area.
True, and the 14610 isn't much larger than the 14612. But, since the discussion had taken a turn towards a using larger than spec'd filter while under warranty, thought I'd point out that a Honda dealer had actually done it for a period of time. Also, the Honda engineer in the vid, had commented an benefits/advantages of using a smaller filter.
I didn't think the dealer using the larger filter an issue though.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There is only at the most 15% more volume in the 14459 anyway. And as we both know, the 14459 actually has less media area.
True, and the 14610 isn't much larger than the 14612. But, since the discussion had taken a turn towards a using larger than spec'd filter while under warranty, thought I'd point out that a Honda dealer had actually done it for a period of time. Also, the Honda engineer in the vid, had commented an benefits/advantages of using a smaller filter.
I didn't think the dealer using the larger filter an issue though.
Like I eluded to earlier ... the "smaller filter is better because ..." discussion in the OP's linked video is more applicable to racing engines with high volume/pressure oil pumps that are banging gears at 10K RPM vs the every day public street car.
Yes, I'm sure it's safer to run the "specified filter" in case of warranty issues ... but I highly doubt a larger filter is going to split open and fail on a street car due to "pressure pulsations" like it might on a full blown race engine.
Instead of them putting a hose clamp around the filter's can to "reinforce it", they should be using a filter with a thicker can that is made for racing and higher pressures and pressure pulsations. The hose clamp and using a smaller canned filter is a bandage fix IMO.
I mean there are tons of people running larger filters on this website, and I haven't heard of one instance where it caused a problem if done right ... meaning one that fits right, has right bypass setting, but is just larger in size.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There is only at the most 15% more volume in the 14459 anyway. And as we both know, the 14459 actually has less media area.
True, and the 14610 isn't much larger than the 14612. But, since the discussion had taken a turn towards a using larger than spec'd filter while under warranty, thought I'd point out that a Honda dealer had actually done it for a period of time. Also, the Honda engineer in the vid, had commented an benefits/advantages of using a smaller filter.
I didn't think the dealer using the larger filter an issue though.
Like I eluded to earlier ... the "smaller filter is better because ..." discussion in the OP's linked video is more applicable to racing engines with high volume/pressure oil pumps that are banging gears at 10K RPM vs the every day public street car.
Yes, I'm sure it's safer to run the "specified filter" in case of warranty issues ... but I highly doubt a larger filter is going to split open and fail on a street car due to "pressure pulsations" like it might on a full blown race engine.
Instead of them putting a hose clamp around the filter's can to "reinforce it", they should be using a filter with a thicker can that is made for racing and higher pressures and pressure pulsations. The hose clamp and using a smaller canned filter is a bandage fix IMO.
I mean there are tons of people running larger filters on this website, and I haven't heard of one instance where it caused a problem if done right ... meaning one that fits right, has right bypass setting, but is just larger in size.
The benefit of a larger oil filter has already been proven by Vw/Audi with their sludge monster 1.8T. The solution for the A4's and Passats was a bigger oil filter.
Kia/Hyundai also play the clearance issue. Some of the smaller engines have bigger filters than the optional bigger engines. If there was no benefit of the bigger filter on the small engine, then they would just the small filter everywhere.
I have yet to find 'detrimental' effects in real world usage. Well, there will always be the hacks using non-adbv, non-bypass, and incorrectly threaded filters. But, take out the lack of common sense, and there are no detrimental effects.
The Honda engineer video was vague. No details. Makes me wonder if he even knew what he was saying.
Kia/Hyundai also play the clearance issue. Some of the smaller engines have bigger filters than the optional bigger engines. If there was no benefit of the bigger filter on the small engine, then they would just the small filter everywhere.
I have yet to find 'detrimental' effects in real world usage. Well, there will always be the hacks using non-adbv, non-bypass, and incorrectly threaded filters. But, take out the lack of common sense, and there are no detrimental effects.
The Honda engineer video was vague. No details. Makes me wonder if he even knew what he was saying.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I mean there are tons of people running larger filters on this website, and I haven't heard of one instance where it caused a problem if done right ... meaning one that fits right, has right bypass setting, but is just larger in size.
I think you hit the nail on the head right there. Upsizing requires more than just thinking that, well, this filter looks right, just bigger, so I'll use it. Myself, I'm pretty picky. I use OEM as my first choice or grab the specified Wix.
I don't have any vehicles under warranty, but my thoughts are that the manufacturer had a reason for specifying what they did, and I have few reasons to deviate from following those recommendations.
I mean there are tons of people running larger filters on this website, and I haven't heard of one instance where it caused a problem if done right ... meaning one that fits right, has right bypass setting, but is just larger in size.
I think you hit the nail on the head right there. Upsizing requires more than just thinking that, well, this filter looks right, just bigger, so I'll use it. Myself, I'm pretty picky. I use OEM as my first choice or grab the specified Wix.
I don't have any vehicles under warranty, but my thoughts are that the manufacturer had a reason for specifying what they did, and I have few reasons to deviate from following those recommendations.
No problemo, Bill, and I'm sorry I got mad. You are right that you are on your own under warranty if you use an non-approved filter or anything...And I/we should know that, but I choose to use one because the lower face velocity helps catch particles....in theory. That's the way most filters work.
unDummy, Why did the filter affect sludging, did they ever publish the reason?
unDummy, Why did the filter affect sludging, did they ever publish the reason?
As I said in my earlier post, there is a difference between using a spec'd aftermarket filter in place of OEM, and using a different/larger size while under warranty. The former is covered by MMW act, the latter afaik is not.
That said, if one is comfortable using a larger filter, and is willing to assume any potential failure/warranty risk, however small, then so be it. Using common sense about the larger size ie., not extreme, could increase that comfort level.
Using an oversize filter after warranty eliminates that potential drawback/disadvantage to filter choice.
But, aftermarket filters that meet spec, are no different than OEM as far as the warranty goes.
And yes, the OP's vid clearly relates to racing, not pc use.
That said, if one is comfortable using a larger filter, and is willing to assume any potential failure/warranty risk, however small, then so be it. Using common sense about the larger size ie., not extreme, could increase that comfort level.
Using an oversize filter after warranty eliminates that potential drawback/disadvantage to filter choice.
But, aftermarket filters that meet spec, are no different than OEM as far as the warranty goes.
And yes, the OP's vid clearly relates to racing, not pc use.
I think they went for a bigger filter just as a way to add a little bit more oil in the system.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
As I said in my earlier post, there is a difference between using a spec'd aftermarket filter in place of OEM, and using a different/larger size while under warranty. The former is covered by MMW act, the latter afaik is not.
That said, if one is comfortable using a larger filter, and is willing to assume any potential failure/warranty risk, however small, then so be it. Using common sense about the larger size ie., not extreme, could increase that comfort level.
Using an oversize filter after warranty eliminates that potential drawback/disadvantage to filter choice.
But, aftermarket filters that meet spec, are no different than OEM as far as the warranty goes.
And yes, the OP's vid clearly relates to racing, not pc use.
Agreed. I believe quality aftermarket filters for the correct application are often better than whoever the OEM chooses to supply them with.
I choose Mahle or Wix whenever possible, just from all the brands I have seen these seem better quality (from a build quality point of view)
As I said in my earlier post, there is a difference between using a spec'd aftermarket filter in place of OEM, and using a different/larger size while under warranty. The former is covered by MMW act, the latter afaik is not.
That said, if one is comfortable using a larger filter, and is willing to assume any potential failure/warranty risk, however small, then so be it. Using common sense about the larger size ie., not extreme, could increase that comfort level.
Using an oversize filter after warranty eliminates that potential drawback/disadvantage to filter choice.
But, aftermarket filters that meet spec, are no different than OEM as far as the warranty goes.
And yes, the OP's vid clearly relates to racing, not pc use.
Agreed. I believe quality aftermarket filters for the correct application are often better than whoever the OEM chooses to supply them with.
I choose Mahle or Wix whenever possible, just from all the brands I have seen these seem better quality (from a build quality point of view)
Quote:
But, aftermarket filters that meet spec, are no different than OEM as far as the warranty goes.
Kind of. Except, even with the Magneson Moss Act, my Chrysler manual says, in effect, that if you use an aftermarket filter AND they prove that the filter is defective, then Chrysler doesn't have to warranty the damage, i.e, engine failure.
This makes sense, since why should they warranty another company's product.
This opens a door for the auto mfg. to make your life more miserable fighting a warranty claim. Something else for some (sometimes me) to consider(I use aftermarket filters all the time under warranty!).
Wishing everyone a great new year!
But, aftermarket filters that meet spec, are no different than OEM as far as the warranty goes.
Kind of. Except, even with the Magneson Moss Act, my Chrysler manual says, in effect, that if you use an aftermarket filter AND they prove that the filter is defective, then Chrysler doesn't have to warranty the damage, i.e, engine failure.
This makes sense, since why should they warranty another company's product.
This opens a door for the auto mfg. to make your life more miserable fighting a warranty claim. Something else for some (sometimes me) to consider(I use aftermarket filters all the time under warranty!).
Wishing everyone a great new year!
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Originally Posted By: sayjac
Quote:
.With a new vehicle under warranty I would stick with OEM parts.
Can't agree with that. Since this an oil filter board, I'm specifically talking oil filters here. In my experience, quality aftermarket oil filters are every bit as good or better than OEM, readily available, and can generally be had for less money.
Now, using the correct size spec'd aftermarket filter while under warranty is another matter IMO. Filter size 'could be' a factor in voiding your warranty if there's an issue. Others have posted ways around it, I guess it's one of those comfort level things. The one specific example I can think of is the 14612 size vs 14610 size. Many Nissans spec the "shorty" (2 in. length and media area, that it's hard to imagine that it wouldn't be an improvement, but it's not an extreme change.
Otoh, there are some here that just prefer OEM filters, I'm just not one of them.
Up until about a year ago Purolator was the only filter that recomended the longer 14610 for my 2005 Altima V6. Now they changed it to the 14612.
Quote:
.With a new vehicle under warranty I would stick with OEM parts.
Can't agree with that. Since this an oil filter board, I'm specifically talking oil filters here. In my experience, quality aftermarket oil filters are every bit as good or better than OEM, readily available, and can generally be had for less money.
Now, using the correct size spec'd aftermarket filter while under warranty is another matter IMO. Filter size 'could be' a factor in voiding your warranty if there's an issue. Others have posted ways around it, I guess it's one of those comfort level things. The one specific example I can think of is the 14612 size vs 14610 size. Many Nissans spec the "shorty" (2 in. length and media area, that it's hard to imagine that it wouldn't be an improvement, but it's not an extreme change.
Otoh, there are some here that just prefer OEM filters, I'm just not one of them.
Up until about a year ago Purolator was the only filter that recomended the longer 14610 for my 2005 Altima V6. Now they changed it to the 14612.
Originally Posted By: steveh
Up until about a year ago Purolator was the only filter that recomended the longer 14610 for my 2005 Altima V6. Now they changed it to the 14612.
Yep ... and when that happened I emailed Purolator and asked them why it changed. They said because the 14610 might have clearance problems on the V6. But I've used them on mine and I can tell you there is zero clearance issue. I think Purolator just followed suit with what Nissan does; which is to use the LONG filter on the 4 cylinder and the SHORT filter on the V6. Go figure ...
Up until about a year ago Purolator was the only filter that recomended the longer 14610 for my 2005 Altima V6. Now they changed it to the 14612.
Yep ... and when that happened I emailed Purolator and asked them why it changed. They said because the 14610 might have clearance problems on the V6. But I've used them on mine and I can tell you there is zero clearance issue. I think Purolator just followed suit with what Nissan does; which is to use the LONG filter on the 4 cylinder and the SHORT filter on the V6. Go figure ...
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
What are you trying to hide if its so legal or honest to run the "same" filter even if its not?
The reason we try to hide it is that the dealership WILL AUTOMATICALLY blame the longer filter for the engine problem, REGARDLESS if the problem is really related to oil or the oil filter. THEY are the ones who are dishonest! They are simply trying to save their money by not fixing your vehicle and it isn't fair. Hence the nick name stealership. They didn't get that name from being honest and trust worthy.
Anyways, back to reality. I think we got a little carried away in this thread LOL. Look at my sig, there are no oversized filters availble for either of my applications. If there was a longer filter for my truck though...
No hard feeling towards anyone here, I got the answer I was looking for. Thanks guys
What are you trying to hide if its so legal or honest to run the "same" filter even if its not?
The reason we try to hide it is that the dealership WILL AUTOMATICALLY blame the longer filter for the engine problem, REGARDLESS if the problem is really related to oil or the oil filter. THEY are the ones who are dishonest! They are simply trying to save their money by not fixing your vehicle and it isn't fair. Hence the nick name stealership. They didn't get that name from being honest and trust worthy.
Anyways, back to reality. I think we got a little carried away in this thread LOL. Look at my sig, there are no oversized filters availble for either of my applications. If there was a longer filter for my truck though...
No hard feeling towards anyone here, I got the answer I was looking for. Thanks guys
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Then don't. Dude, you need to get over your mod crush. Quite frankly, it appeared to be an A and B conversation. No C involved.
Just noticed the OP video. Funny thing about that is, the 01 Civic first went to the smaller 14610 filter for that year. The dealer was still selling/using the larger 14459 that was used in the previous years. Did so for some time because they couldn't get the smaller filter. I know because I bought several and had oc from dealer. Sort of ironic.
Does your mouth EVER NOT run?
Then don't. Dude, you need to get over your mod crush. Quite frankly, it appeared to be an A and B conversation. No C involved.
Just noticed the OP video. Funny thing about that is, the 01 Civic first went to the smaller 14610 filter for that year. The dealer was still selling/using the larger 14459 that was used in the previous years. Did so for some time because they couldn't get the smaller filter. I know because I bought several and had oc from dealer. Sort of ironic.
Does your mouth EVER NOT run?
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