D4 ATF vs. MTL in BMW manual transmission?

Status
Not open for further replies.
W

wolfestone

Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
70
Location
FL, USA
My car has the getrag GS6-17BZ manual transmission, with around 6k miles on it.

I replaced the 'lifetime fill' BMW factory fluid at 1200 miles as part of a break in service, and I used redline D4 ATF/MTF.

My last BMW had some transmission wear, and I tried several fluids. Ultimately redline MTL was too thick for it in the winter, and it was impossible to shift into first without a crunch. ATF was the best it got, but the input shaft bearings were quite noisy.

I'm wondering if I should try the MTL in the new car, since it's newer and hasn't got any transmission issues. The most important thing to me is protecting the transmission so it lasts as long as possible. My concern is that it'll be too thick for the syncros and result in notchier shifting/very hard shifting when cold.
 
Redline MTL was too thick for your previous transmission in winter, in Florida??? Wow.

I don't have the same transmission, I have the ZF 5-speed used in the I6 E39s and I've found MTL to be fine even in temps around 0F. Interesting.

The Dave@Redline told me that they generically spec D4ATF so that there are no shifting complaints in any weather, but that MTL and MT-90 could be used just fine. When you compare the properties of MTF-LT-2 to the lineup it most closely matches MTL.

You could also try Amsoil MTF - also a good viscosity match for LT2. I'm not positive about LT3 but I've seen a discussion on it before, probably here. I'll have to see if searching turns anything up.
 
Dave @redline and another well know member on this site has recommended for me to run a 50/50 mix of C+ATF and MTL in my NVG T850 manual 5 speed(specs ATF+4). MTL by itself caused notchy shifts, so dave said to go ahead and try the 50/50 mix if I felt like giving it a shot. This way I got the great shiftability with the C+ATF and I also add in some EP and AW additives of the MTL.

However, he did say that C+ATF by itself should be more than enough protection(GL4) for my gearsets, but im sure he wouldnt tell me that C+ATF wouldnt be enough if it wasnt since the OEM recommends atf.

I say, try mixing the two and see how it feels.
 
Yep, the MTL definitely was too thick for my previous transmission (getrag gs6 37bz) in winter. I know the previous transmission had some issues though, when I drained the fluid after buying the car it seemed to have been underfilled.

The new car is specified for MTL-3. I've also heard about the mixing of MTL and ATF but I'm a bit hestitant to try that.

I'm really tempted to try the MTL just to satisfy my own curiosity, especially since the weather is fairly cold right now.
 
I'm sorry, the gs6-37bz is indeed a ZF transmission. the gs6-17bz is a Getrag transmission and is used in the 328i and 128i as far as I know.
 
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada


When you compare the properties of MTF-LT-2 to the lineup it most closely matches MTL.




Not according to my VOA's... according to my data D4ATF (40c vis 34 & 100c 7.5) is the closer match to the BMW MTF-LT-2 (37.5 & 7.5) just like a Dex3 ATF, but with modified AW/EP/FM pkg. Redline MTL is a fair bit thicker (56.2 & 10.6). Amsoil MTF is slightly thinner than Redline D4 (47.1 & 9.6), but probably not enough to make it much better when cold.

You might want to try the Fuchs Titan Sintofluid MTF's as they have a FE 75 and 75W-80 that are supposed to be MTF specified formulas usable in BMW.

The Honda MTF also looks worth a try, and is available in aftermarket synthetic version made by Neo Synthetic Oils (check out the Baker Performance site in SoCal as it doesn't appear on Neo's main site).

Or just stick with D4 or Pentosin's MTF-2.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 4wheels

Not according to my VOA's... according to my data D4ATF (40c vis 34 & 100c 7.5) is the closer match to the BMW MTF-LT-2 (37.5 & 7.5) just like a Dex3 ATF, but with modified AW/EP/FM pkg. Redline MTL is a fair bit thicker (56.2 & 10.6). Amsoil MTF is slightly thinner than Redline D4 (47.1 & 9.6), but probably not enough to make it much better when cold.


My apologies. I remember reading a VOA a couple of years ago for LT2 which said it was 9.x and that's what I committed to memory. I'm going to have to go searching to find my source and see how I made my error. Do you have a link to your VOA? I'd like to tag it.

In terms of observation I've personally used LT2, D4ATF, RP Synchromax, MTL and MTF in my E39 5-spd. I found MTL to give the best experience (even in cold weather) with MTF as a very close second. I haven't tried the Pentosin - maybe I will try to find a source in-country for the next change.
 
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Originally Posted By: 4wheels

Not according to my VOA's... according to my data D4ATF (40c vis 34 & 100c 7.5) is the closer match to the BMW MTF-LT-2 (37.5 & 7.5) just like a Dex3 ATF, but with modified AW/EP/FM pkg. Redline MTL is a fair bit thicker (56.2 & 10.6). Amsoil MTF is slightly thinner than Redline D4 (47.1 & 9.6), but probably not enough to make it much better when cold.


My apologies. I remember reading a VOA a couple of years ago for LT2 which said it was 9.x and that's what I committed to memory. I'm going to have to go searching to find my source and see how I made my error. Do you have a link to your VOA? I'd like to tag it.

In terms of observation I've personally used LT2, D4ATF, RP Synchromax, MTL and MTF in my E39 5-spd. I found MTL to give the best experience (even in cold weather) with MTF as a very close second. I haven't tried the Pentosin - maybe I will try to find a source in-country for the next change.


Sorry I don't have a link handy to my VOA's, but I posted them on the forum a long time ago. Maybe the search will find them, I listed the title with the oil name as part of the subj.

I'm probably going to use the Amsoil MTF in my e36 M3 next as it's a bit thinner than MTL. I currently have D4 in there and it works quite well, so I'm hesitant to go thicker but want to test the Amsoil stuff in this app.

I'm also going to test the Neo Synthetic MTF, which was made as an alternative to the Honda MTF so it's low (ATF) vis. Also the Fuchs/Titan Sintofluid line looks pretty interesting & has choices from ATF to Synchromesh vis. Total/Elf also has some variety of choices for an MTF in the Synchromesh vis range. There's also Joe Gibbs, SynMax & Torco if one really wants to try them all.
 
Last edited:
Peanut gallery checking in here.
GM makes several versions of it's manual trans fluids and I used several in my base model 5 speed half ton truck over it's stay with me. All worked well. These fluids are fairly thin.

Also, my '08 Mazdaspeed 3 shifted horrible and I tried Redline MTL and MT90 with poor results. A Motorcraft product called XT-M5-QS fixed it up nicely. This product, although listed as a GL3/4 75W-90 is actually quite thin. It's made in Germany and is a bit pricey.

Just trying to help with more options....
 
Thanks for the advice guys.

I am a bit concerned about swapping fluids to different brands too many times in case there's any issues with mixing them.

The D4 has done pretty well, but just to make sure I'm understanding the correlation between viscosity and shift feel, here's what I'm experiencing:

In summer (in FL), the D4 shifts perfectly right from 'cold'. When it's hot after a 20 mile trip on the freeway, it's a little notchy.

In winter, it's a little notchy when cold but seems good when warmed up.

From memory, the BMW factory fill fluid was about the same, got a little notchy when warm but was actually less smooth from a cold start. I would say I prefer the feel with redline than the BMW fluid (which was MTF-LT-3 - apparently equivalent to a thin ATF)

Am I correct in assuming that switching to a thicker fluid like redline MTL would increase the notchiness when cold?

Also - 4wheels: I read with interest your VOA on the BMW MTF-LT-3 post some months back, and you mentioned you were conducting a mini-test with a couple of road cars. Based on what you found, were you underwhelmed with this fluid?
 
Last edited:
"In summer (in FL), the D4 shifts perfectly right from 'cold'. When it's hot after a 20 mile trip on the freeway, it's a little notchy."

My 2002 MCoupe was just like this.... I put in a THICKER mix of
Redline D4 and maybe 500cc of MT 90. Now it shifts A LOT better when hot and I expect a few miles of "notchy" when cold. It is really smoother hot AND cold now.
 
That was the reason I went to a 50/50 mix of MTL/C+atf. The MTL was too notchy when cold, but I wanted to use a manual trans fluid in a manual trans that spec'd ATF. I chose to thin out the MTL by mixing it with the spec'd fluid.

I am also in construction, and can be working anywhere in the PNW, so I like to change fluids depending on how many months I will be at a certain jobsite. If I am a jobsite for a year+ and 40+ miles from home, I will use MTL only because I wont be shifting much on the freeway, and it will have plenty of time to get hot. If I am 5 miles from home, I will use C+ATF by itself. Good thing is that my trans holds only 2.4 quarts and I have a local hookup that has a Redline sponser, so I can get cases for 1/2 price. It doesnt cost a fortune to change my fluid every 15k miles
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Graham Piccinini
RedLine D4 VS HPL Blue
Replies
2
Views
1K
Astro14
D
GM F40 Transmission, synchromesh?
Replies
4
Views
1K
dfarr67
MolaKule
  • Locked
Updated List of MTF's (both GL-4 and GL-5)
2
Replies
35
Views
10K
Ruturaj
A
ATF & Shift Kits (A960E)
Replies
0
Views
488
AlmondChassis
T
Tremec T6060 fluid recommendation?
Replies
18
Views
1K
nascarnation
Back
Top