Torn over what snowmobile oil to use

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GT Mike

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Hey all,
Been a long time since I visited this site.

I recently acquired a 1997 Polaris Indy 500 (carb, not EFI) that's in remarkable shape. The previous owner had used nothing but genuine Polaris oil in it since new. It now has about 5000 miles on it, and still pops 125# in both cylinders.
A good buddy of mine is really into snowmobiling and also is an avid Polaris rider. He owns an automotive machine/speed shop and is a distributor for Schaeffer's oil. He's been using the Schaeffer's #706 Supreme 7000 2-stroke TC-W3 oil in his sleds for a good number of years now and has absolutely no problems with it. He strongly recommended I use this oil instead of the Polaris oil that it's been running since new. I trust his opinion and know that he's not going to recommend a product until he's thoroughly tested it first. The one thing that concerns me is that I looked up the Technical Data Sheet on this oil and it specifically states NOT to use it in any 2-cycle application that has rotary valves or power valves, which his newer sleds all have. It's very interesting to me that this specific topic came up when reading that TD sheet, because that's the main thing he commented on when recommending this oil...He said that compared to the Amsoil Interceptor oil he was running previously (in a 2005 XC SP 800), the power valves stayed perfectly clean on Schaeffer's, but got "gummy" on Amsoil. He also commented that plug cleanliness was greatly improved, as was smoke levels when switching to Schaeffer's.
Is he actually doing his engines a disservice by using this oil? He's not had one failure whatsoever and he's not the average rider. 90 MPH is his "cruising" speed. I won't even ride with him because he's that much of a maniac out there! His latest sleds (he's got 2 right now) are a '08 Polaris Dragon turbo, and an '09 Arctic Cat F1000 Sno Pro. The Dragon, being a 4-stroke, he's running Schaeffer's 5w40 Supreme 9000 full synthetic, and the F1000 runs Schaeffer's 2-stroke TC-W3. Not one problem with either sled.
I trust his experience enough to run this oil with confidence, but based on what I've been reading here, it seems like it's really not the right oil for this application.

For my sled, not having power valves, and being a considerably lower output engine, I can't see this oil causing me any trouble, but I'd just like a little bit of additional input on the subject.

I've been using Schaeffer oils in my cars and trucks for a great number of years now, and they've always been great.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
 
Hi Mike, it has been awhile since you last posted.

My only comment would be to keep your butt parked next to the fireplace like I do.
grin2.gif


I hate our winters.
mad.gif
 
Quote:
Supreme 7000 Synthetic Plus 2-Cycle Oil is a para-synthetic ashless 2-cycle oil that is specially formulated to meet and exceed the performance needs of today’s high performance water cooled two cycle engines that specify the use of a 2-cycle oil that meets NMMA TC-W3...Superior high temperature performance and protection for water cooled
and those air-cooled engines that specifically call for the use of a TC-W TC-W II, TC-W3 type 2-cycle oils...Supreme 7000 Synthetic Plus 2-Cycle Oil is not recommended for use in
those 2-cycle engines that employ the use of rotary valves or power-valves or 2-cycle engines (*air cooled) that specify API TC, JASO FA, JASO FB, JASO FC, ISO-L-EGB, ISO -L-EGD, ISO-L-EGC and TISI quality 2-cycle oils.


I would not use the #706 in rotary valve engines since it was designed for use in lower temperature engines.

If you have a premature wear problem with the valving, don't look to Schaefer's for any help.

It does contain about 10% PAO and I have used in 2-cycle chainsaw and weedeater engines but at a 30:1 ratio.

I would recommend one of the Amsoil oils for your rotary valve snowmobile.
 
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your 500 will run fine on Polaris, Amsoil, or Schaefers. (I have a 95 500); my neighbor races Polaris's and rides ALOT. He uses Amsoil exclusinvely - especially on power valve motors. a friend of mine owns a polaris dealer and goes to polaris mechanic school every year. he has also run most of the oils - he is good with Amsoil - we've never talked about Schaefers...
 
That's a Fuji 500 I believe and will run fine on most anything. The Polaris "Blue" is now a blend (instead of mineral based only) and is an excellent product- I would not be afraid to run it at all in almost anything. In the end, you should run what is cost effective and easily available to you.

Here are some of my personal favs for sleds (In no order):

Arctic Blue
Polaris Blue
Citgo Sea and Snow (very clean burning)
Klotz Techniplate
Castrol 2S
Yamalube 2S
 
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You're right, it is a Fuji 500 (488 actually) and has no power valves. Very simple straightforward engine. I just don't want any premature failures that could have been prevented by using improper oils, etc. in it. Not that rebuilding one is really that difficult, it's just the idea of having to do it. Besides...I want to show my buddy who's a lifelong Ski-Doo guy that these older Polaris sleds were about indestructible. I already bought a tow rope to pull his '04 MXZ 600 REV in when it burns down.
smile.gif
 
Well if you can get locally, the Polaris Blue oil is really an excellent oil and I'd be torn between Citgo Sea and Snow and the Blue for my favorite oil in that application. But, if I had to choose, I'd probably pick the Sea and Snow due to it's low cost vs. very high specs. It carries the ISO EGD and JASO FD ratings, which are the most stringent standards for lubricity, smoke emissions and cleanliness.

An after thought to y list above- Though I've not personally used it, I've heard nothing but excellent reports of the Legend ZX 2 cycle oil as well.
 
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
yamalube is a very good oil and not really that expensive.


Yamaha lubs is good oil so is Citgo Sea & Snow
http://www.lubeoil.com/pdfs/citgo/citgo/...ngine%20Oil.pdf

I use Esso Easymix or Snowmobile (same stuff) and find it works well.

http://www.imperialoil.ca/Canada-English/Files/Products_Lubes/IOCAENPVLESEasymix_2_cycle.pdf


Up until last year or so, it was Sea and Snow... Or vice versa. According to my favorite semi local Yamasnob parts guy, Yammi changed suppliers.
 
My local Fleet Farm I believe carries the Citgo oil. I'll have to stop there and make sure. I know they also carry Amsoil as well as Mystik which I've heard good things about in the outboard world. Not sure about their snowmobile oils though.
I'm leaning towards the Citgo though.

Maybe a little nudge to the right person might convince Schaeffer's to come out with a API TC rated oil that's specifically designed for snowmobiles. I'd run it in a heartbeat.
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Up until last year or so, it was Sea and Snow... Or vice versa. According to my favorite semi local Yamasnob parts guy, Yammi changed suppliers.


Any Idea who is making Yamalube now? I think they buy based on quality and price. I know years ago when I bought Yamalube in Canada it was made by Imperial oil.
 
Fleet Farm does carry Citgo Sea & Snow. They also carry Mystik Sea & Snow, which carries the same specifications as Citgo (and is even the same color...Coincidence?) as well as Arctic Blue in semi and full synthetic.

The Citgo is a decent price...$3.15/quart. Compared to Schaeffer's at a tick over 20 bucks a gallon, this works out to be considerably cheaper.
 
I have both a 1997 & 1998 Indy 500's as does my Dad, along with the 4 Deere Liquifire and one Trailfire snowmobiles. We run the former Gulf (before they became Tier 1) and now run Brad Penn dino snowmobile oil. Your engine doesn't have exhaust valves, so an expensive synthetic oil is needed. All polaris recommends is a TC-W3 oil. Section 2.3 in the 1996-98 tech manual for those nay-stayers. I can get 3 gallons for Brad Penn for $45. Heck of a lot better than $45 a gallon for synthetic.

Oh and the pour point which people say is so much better with Amsoil, Klotz, etc., with the Gulf/Brad Penn -38 °F.

Below is a reply from American Refinery on this same subject:



Thank you for contacting the American Refining Group, Inc., Master Distributor of Gulf Lubricants.

The National Marine Manufacturers’ Association (NMMA) was officially formed in 1979. As part of their responsibility, they set the standards and requirements of oils suitable for use in 2-cycle and 4-cycle engines used in boating/marine applications. Many snowmobile manufacturers using 2-stroke cycle engines successfully adopted these performance standards for oils used in their engine applications. In 1994 the Japanese Automobile Standards Organization (JASO) introduced their specification M345-3 which was directed more toward the needs of 2-stroke cycle air-cooled engines in mobile applications like motorcycles, mopeds, ATV’s etc. Both the NMMA and JASO standards require rigorous testing of candidate oils against industry standard oils in actual applications and equipment. Testing includes properties like flash point, viscosity, sulfated ash, and rating from testing in actual engine applications for parameters like lubricity, initial torque, detergency, varnish formation, etc. The tests required for JASO and those required for NMMA TC-W3® certification are very different and incorporate different testing engines and equipment. There is no ‘read across’ certification possible between JASO and NMMA TC-W3®. JASO and API ‘TC’ ratings apply to 2-stroke cycle engine oils that typically contain small amounts of ash and are designed specifically for use in air-cooled engines. Air-cooled 2-stroke cycle engines are susceptible to deposit formation and lubricity issues due to high temperature operation. The small amount of ash (detergent) in 2-stroke cycle air cooled engine oils helps prevent this deposit formation and provide lubricity. NMMA TC-W3® rated oils are ‘ashless’ by definition and are designed for use in 2-stroke cycle water cooled engines. Because these engines are water cooled and have lower operating temperatures, they do not have the tendency toward deposit formation and high temperature lubricity issues like air-cooled 2-stroke cycle engines. They do not need the ash or detergency of JASO or ‘API ‘TC’ oils.

Mr. Sauer, if the engine in your sled calls for a 2-stroke cycle oil that carries NMMA TC-W3® certification, our recommendation would be to stick with oils that carry this certification and not to use JASO rated products. The engine in your sled is designed to use a NMMA TC-W3® ‘ashless’ type 2-stroke cycle oil. Changing to a JASO rated (low ash) oil could possibly lead to engine deposits and/or operational problems. As you are aware our Gulfpride® Two-Cycle Engine Oil (P/N 330501) carries NMMA TC-W3® certification and is suitable for use in applications where this 2-cycle oil quality and performance level is specified.

Thank you once again for your inquiry Mr. Sauer. Hopefully we have answered your questions.

Happy Holidays!


Chuck Armstrong CLS, OMA I
Certified Lubrication Specialist
Manager, Technical Service
American Refining Group, Inc.
77 North Kendall Ave.
Bradford, PA 16701
(814) 368-8754
[email protected]


Remember to think SNOW!!!!!

bob
 
Good info.

Dispelling the hype for the necessity of synthetics.

I've been running conventional API TC3 rated oil in all of my air cooled two strokes for decades. Great oil for a great price.
 
That engine will run for ever on the cheapest oil you can find there good little mills them 500's.

that said...i only run Amsoil Interceptor in my sleds do to power valves but also my sleds with out,outstanding oil for cleanliness and wear.

have tore down many engines and piston skirts still well with in min wear specs and clean inside.
 
For any two stroke sled I personally would recommend Klotz smowmobile injector oil, Klotz was the original two stroke oil back in the late 1960's and has a great reputable product. My brother and his buddies all run it in their new Ski-doo XP REV 800's with great results, plus it smells great when running. Look them up on the web and if you have any questions, call their tech people, they will answer any questions you have. Problem solved? Thanks.
 
Quote:
Citgo Sea & Snow. They also carry Mystik Sea & Snow


That's because they are the same company. Mystik is a Citgo secondary brand launched in 2003 to what the press said was to distance itself from from is Citgo Venezuelan ownership and the bad press. Also, designed to be a value leader in that it would appeal to those who cared only about money and thought the Citgo brand cost to much. They are competing with themselves basically.
 
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