A Grease Story

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Originally Posted By: Rix
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
Now as far as the Drum brake "Only" application for this grease,

Why is that?, how was Toyota able to pull this off, I have studied this quite a bit and pondered as to why


They didn't.
The grease you are trying to sell is NOT what came in the toyota axles from the factory.



While you are convinced that a semi fluid sodium based grease did not come in these axles,
I have read the this form of grease is used in engineering for less than oil tight power transmission devices,,
This is the closed axle,
A less than oil tight power transmission device, And you stating that "Toyota" one of the best car manufactures did not know this,
Well they do,

The folks who dont know this are the salesmen who work for "Toyota Motor Sales LTD"

the ones who wrote your book, now you are here in the "Light" showing contaminated grease with gear oil,(as factory) proving that you do not know what came in these axles from the factory,,
 
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
In a Rig From Haiti where E-rock works at a orphanage saving children
Yes Folks this is the Story,

A tangled web,


Not tangled at all. You are the only one that can't seem to get it straight.

The pictures Rix posted are from an FZJ80 that he worked on - manufactured between 1993-1997.

The one I worked on at the orphanage in Haiti was an '06 FZJ105. The reason that one is especially pertinent to this discussion is that it is newer than any solid-front-axle Toyota vehicle ever imported to the US by 9 years. I know the owner and know that it had never been serviced. Ever. And it did not have any kind of soup in the knuckles. Just good old black #2 packed in there and doing a fantastic job.

Is it that difficult to understand?
 
"By showing that the actual reference material that you claim supports your position in fact proves you wrong? I am not in any way obscuring the truth. You will note that I actually provide links and references to the information I post rather than obscure uncited quotations from unreliable sources."

E Rock,

This is simply not the case, I searched for a long time to find information about this form and base of grease

In 1985 the Texaco Oil company together with the Rail Road tested this form of grease,

The file is called "Locomotive Traction gear lube"

I do not know how to link this file to "BOB" but all you have to do is type that in,

They did all the grease tests, all sorts of information, not only the standard grease test, testing them in the gear boxes, at different speeds, all sorts of stuff,
In that article, it states that both sodium and lithium greases in the fluid forms have been used with for years,
While in the end they went with lithium grease, they mention as things improve they will look into Oil as a better alternative,

This is real world studys, the best I have seen, and keep in mind, lithium grease can be also tailored with "Adhesion properties" as stated in one of the first posts on this thread,

BP has a semi fluid grease specifically recommended for this applications.

These are NOT obscure references, while a Toyota axle is not a locomotive for sure, Grease doesnt care what it is in, its function is to reduce friction,

In order to do that in this application, #1 It needs to Flow and #2 It needs to stay in place,,

This is what this form of grease is specifically tailored to do,

So while it may work in a mushroom factory, simply stating that my referances, citations are obscure, It will not work here in the "Light"
 
I was talking about uncited quotations from other forums, Frank. You don't generally state where you copied the quote from, and then you respond to a question as if you are writing to the original poster. It's silly and misleading.


Originally Posted By: IH8mush
BP has a semi fluid grease specifically recommended for this applications.


Yes, BP "Traction Gear M". A sodium-base #0. Valvoline makes (or made) one too called "Valvoline Traction Motor Gear Grease SS"

It's interesting that you brought up BP. Here is their (Australian) product application guide: http://sitebuilder.yodelaustralia.com.au/sites/5122/BP Product Guide Aus.pdf

"Traction Gear M" is on page 39.


More importantly, on page 62, there is a grease application recommendation chart. You may notice that they have recommendations for "Wheel Bearings" and "Constant Velocity Joints" right at the top for your easy viewing.

Even though BP manufactures, markets, and sells a #0 sodium grease, all of their recommendations for these applications are #2 Lithium greases.
 
"I was talking about uncited quotations from other forums, Frank. You don't generally state where you copied the quote from, and then you respond to a question as if you are writing to the original poster. It's silly and misleading."

E-Rock I have learned from the best, I have used the same tactics as "Toyota propagandists"

I am trying to beat them at there own Game,,, Now this being said folks,

There is a fellow that goes by the handle IdahoDoug, a forum regular on woodys Ih8mud mushroom factory where he will state that the way to service this axle is to pump grease into the fill plug,

Then goes to a regular, car chat forum and with a very well written piece of propaganda
Tells folks that mechanic are "Ignorant" if the service this axle in that fashion,,

Idahodoug is retired corporate "Toyota sales" on Mudder forums and regular folk forums, "Obfuscating"

When I read that , I did not like being called ignorant, began reading posts began to see what was going on,,

On this subject the internet is being used to dupe folks about something they do not know anything about, grease, even lifetime mechanics such as myself, do not know much about grease,
I know I didnt, But I am not ignorant, and I do not like those in my profession to be reffered to as such, by smooth talking Toyota salesmen,,,

Simple as that,,,, So I studied grease for over a year, researching it on line, speaking with specialist in the field, other mechanics, I have learned quite a bit,, Wont know it all ever but that is what I like about working on vehicles, always learning something new, or old, or forgotten about,,,,

So The Toyota saleman Idahodoug, known in the Toyota circles as the "Way and the light of everything landcruiser" is actually a traitor,,, a Toyota salesmen,

Harsh I know but

Et Lux in tenebris lucet,
 
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
I am trying to beat them at there own Game,,, Now this being said folks,


Is this your justification for "Somebody lied to me, so now I'm going to tell lies so that people will buy my goop"?


Originally Posted By: IH8mush
There is a fellow that goes by the handle IdahoDoug, a forum regular on woodys Ih8mud mushroom factory where he will state that the way to service this axle is to pump grease into the fill plug,


He did not. He said that he adds grease through the inspection plug to "replace that lost in normal operation through the sweep seals". He did not say that was the proper method of packing grease into the joint. It's like adding oil to the crankcase of a motor that burns or leaks a little.

Link here: http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/261348-birfield-joint-worn-out-still-usable.html


Originally Posted By: IH8mush
Then goes to a regular, car chat forum and with a very well written piece of propaganda
Tells folks that mechanic are "Ignorant" if the service this axle in that fashion,


If that's what a tech does to "service" the axle, it would be ignorant. Ignorant of a known procedure that is well-documented in any repair manual, including the proper one from the factory. That would be like taking your car in to Jiffy Lube (I know how much you respect those guys), asking them to do a full service, and all they do is top off the oil. That would be ignorant.


Originally Posted By: IH8mush
Idahodoug is retired corporate "Toyota sales"


Wrong again (or at least misleading). He told you that he works in Information Services (that means computers).




Originally Posted By: IH8mush
Et Lux in tenebris lucet,
 
No E-rock your getting the story mixed up, that happens with a tangled web of deceit,

The fellow that identified himself as working with the Toyota information services, described himself as a young intern,(at Toyota) after stating that he worked on the assembly line,, at a plant in Kentucky,,

According to him initial fill was a "Moly based grease"

Idahodoug well retired corporate Toyota,, two different folks,

I know it is confusing, it gets that way,,,,
 
Here is the post from Idahodoug,...


"Having said all that, here's a primer on what I think is happening with your front axle. Looking under your front end from the front bumper, the front axle housing terminates at each end in spherical steel structure. In this sphere (STEERING KNUCKLE) are your birfield joints. The sphere is supposed to be full of thick grease. The axle housing (including diff) is supposed to be full of thin gear oil. Right as the axle housing flares into that sphere there is a seal through which the actual axle shaft pierces. The seal (AXLE SEAL) keeps the two types of fluids (thick grease/thin oil) apart. Another seal (STEERING KNUCKLE SEAL) keeps the thick grease from leaking out of the sphere onto the outside of the spherical surface you can see. It is normal for there to be some weeping here, and these seals slide directly against the outside of the sphere, leaving "edges" of thick grease built up at the limits of the wheel's turning ability. Normal.

Over time, the AXLE seal wears and allows the thin grease into the steering knuckle. Here, it thins the grease out, and the grease runs out of the steering knuckle through the STEERING KNUCKLE SEALS, and also sometimes even onto the wheels via the drive plates. After awhile, the differential oil is low, and the steering knuckle is low - endangering both expensive components.

Here is where things typically go horribly awry on a LandCruiser - owing to its uniqueness and the typical ignorance of many mechanics on these somewhat rare aspects.

The lowest form of this mechanic ignorance takes this form: On the upper forward part of the steering knuckle is a square plug. This plug is only to be used to CHECK the grease level in the steering knuckle. But mechanics think this is to FILL the knuckle. It should only be used as an indicator of the grease level since the last disassembly and repack. Not for adding. Putting grease in here does not get it to the actual birfield joint - which is the place where it needs to be. So, many mechanics simply stuff grease in here and send the LandCruiser owner on his merry way thinking he's properly serviced the knuckle/joint. Unfortunately, the birfield resides in a separate chamber inside of the steering knuckle and it's still devoid of grease no matter how much you jam in that plug hole. This is the lowest form of maintenance and the cheapest.

The second form of error costs a lot of money. The mechanic properly strips down the steering knuckle and repacks the birfield/steering knuckle by pulling the axle partway (but not all the way) out. Pulling it all the way out is simply a matter of pulling it another 3 feet and laying it on the bench, BTW. Upon reassembly, they replace the seals that seem to be allowing the grease to run out of the sphere where you can see it built up as mentioned earlier. They think this seal is the problem, after all (its actually a triple seal of rubber, felt and steel designed to contain thick grease, NOT thin oil) as that's where the leak is. Honest mistake, but it's the AXLE SEAL that is causing the grease to thin and leak. The axle is reassembled, the customer pays the bill (usually around $600 per side) and they drive off with that aforementioned axle seal not replaced. Anywhere from a month to 6 months later, the continued contamination of thin gear oil causes the thinned grease/oil mix to run out that new fancy triple seal again and causes a mess and lack of lube AGAIN. Sound familiar?

So, what needs to be done is a PROPER axle service that will again last 60,000 miles before the axle seal starts to wear and leak. I doubt your birfield is toast, but will wait to hear about the "click" test to help you make a judgement. If your front diff has not been allowed to get low, the birfield is still running in oil and that's completely OK.

Back to your front shaft. There are no less than THREE grease fittings on it and most mechanics are used to zero, or one. So, it may be that you simply need someone to grease the three zirc fittings. The more I think about it, this should be done before anything else and takes someone with a grease gun about 3 minutes if they take the time to properly wipe off each fitting before filling it with grease."

IdahoDoug

Unquote


This is what he says on Edmonds Car chat in 2003 or so, in 2005, on "Ih8mud"

He states to pump the knuckle full of grease I think he mentioned about 100 pumps with the grease gun,,
I thought to myself man better get a air powered grease gun, that would wear you out,,, let me look for that post,
 
And then of course in the mushroom factory he says this,,

#11
IdahoDoug
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,091

John,

Informationally, I put about 100 pumps into each birf recently to replace that lost in normal operation through the sweep seals (eyelids). So, 10-15 is not enough. The volume is pretty large in there. On my bro in law's I put 3/4 of a tube in each knuckle a few months ago with the hand pump as well. Don't worry about putting too much in - the grease will push the head of your grease gun out the square plug hole. Even at that point since the grease comes out in squiggly toothbrush ribbons there's at least 1/4 air in the pile of grease that will resolve itself into a normal air gap after only a few miles of driving. It's a pretty bulletproof and idiot proof process. The only thing you can do wrong is NOT add grease IMHO.

DougM



How much grease would 100 pumps be in a average grease gun??

And I like the "Idiot proof" I use that saying as well, no way you can put it together wrong, or louse it up,,

but not with this folks, not "Idiot proof" have to use the correct base, not a incompatible one,,

But as you can see folks its plain as day whats going on here,,

[censored] from Toyota, on these "Black Screen forums" misleading regular owners and mechanics,,,

I like how he starts that post, "Informationally" is that even proper use of that word??

It should be used like this when someone is speaking to give information or to instruct,

"Informatively" but his agenda is not it inform but to deceive
 
"That would be like taking your car in to Jiffy Lube (I know how much you respect those guys), asking them to do a full service, and all they do is top off the oil. That would be ignorant."

E-rock,

Yes I do respect the hard working mechanic, lube tech at the jiffy lubes and general mechanix shops,,

I am one of them,,,
 
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
No E-rock your getting the story mixed up, that happens with a tangled web of deceit,

The fellow that identified himself as working with the Toyota information services, described himself as a young intern,(at Toyota) after stating that he worked on the assembly line,, at a plant in Kentucky,,


Fair enough. I was confused by your disorganized quoting. Do you still think I am IdahoDoug by the way?

Originally Posted By: IH8mush
According to him initial fill was a "Moly based grease"


99% of people don't have a clue about grease bases. Is this surprising to you?

Fortunately, the Toyota factory service manual (the one that was NOT written by salesman as you ignorantly claim) tells them exactly what is supposed to go in the birfield.
 
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
but not with this folks, not "Idiot proof" have to use the correct base, not a incompatible one,,


Right. You have to use a lithium base grease just like the grease that came in there from the factory.

Originally Posted By: IH8mush
I like how he starts that post, "Informationally" is that even proper use of that word??


Actually, yes. (see what I did there?) A grammarian might prefer an alternate construction, but it's fine. For you to critique anyone's spelling and grammar is ridiculous.
 
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
E-rock,

Yes I do respect the hard working mechanic, lube tech at the jiffy lubes and general mechanix shops,,

I am one of them,,,


I have never met anybody I would classify as "hard-working" at Iffy Lube. I have met plenty I would classify as "incompetent", though.
 
Fortunately, the Toyota factory service manual (the one that was NOT written by salesman as you ignorantly claim) tells them exactly what is supposed to go in the birfield.

E-Rock it does tell them what is supposed to go in a birfield,,

No no wait

It is a recommendation,,, which by definition is advise or suggestion,,

And since, a birfield, even a "True Birfield" as Folks like to say is,,,,

A constant velocity Joint,,,,, and they as all of us grease monkeys know

Are lubed with something other that a #2 moly fortified lithium chassis grease so

The advise or suggestion in the FSM that tells folks what to use is not a stringent rule of law,,

I am telling Folks that the "Recommendation in the Toyota FSM is the absolute worst advise or suggestion possible,,

Because it suggests a incompatible grease,,,, and a incorrect grade,
And E-rock you will find on this site folks who have gone to the school of hard knocks like me, and also ones who have been to CV joint school

Where they state that a CV Joint should never be lubed with a ordinary chassis grease,,,

Which is what is stated in the Toyota FSM... completely bogus

Not to even mention the incompatiblity issue.....
 
Originally Posted By: IH8mush
A constant velocity Joint,,,,, and they as all of us grease monkeys know

Are lubed with something other that a #2 moly fortified lithium chassis grease so

The advise or suggestion in the FSM that tells folks what to use is not a stringent rule of law,,



This is a prime example of an uncited assertion. I have shown you DOZENS of reputable #2 Li-base greases with moly that are recommended to be used for CV joints. Just a few posts above this one I linked the BP recommendation table that recommends ONLY #2 Li-base greases, despite a pretty extensive assortment of greases of other grades and base soaps.



Originally Posted By: IH8mush
And E-rock you will find on this site folks who have gone to the school of hard knocks like me, and also ones who have been to CV joint school

Where they state that a CV Joint should never be lubed with a ordinary chassis grease,,,


I've searched pretty extensively here. There are quite a few recommendations from users here. But not a single person here has ever recommended a #0 grease. Not a single person here has ever recommended a Na-base grease. Virtually ALL of them are #2 greases of either Lithium, Polyurea, or Aluminum base.

Originally Posted By: IH8mush
Not to even mention the incompatiblity issue.....


:sigh:
18.gif
 
E- Rock,

I have worked in the auto trade, for 20 years, rebuilt many CV joints on several different types of vehicles, import, domestic,

Never have I seen a Factory CV joint filled or packed would be a better term for a CV joint with a #2 grease,

while the aftermarket may have special #2 high heat calcium based "Red" moly fortified grease like Redline, the manufactures will always from what I have seen use a thinner than #1 grade grease,

Replacement grease is not always what came out of it originally but always thinner then #2 always,,,,
The replacement grease I refer to is what comes in the Boot kits,

What the topic of discussion is here may I remind you E-Rock is factory Type lube,,,,

What is listed in the Toyota FSM describes a "Ordinary chassis grease" which according to CV joint school part 1 should "NEVER' be used,,,,

This is also what the School of Hard knocks teaches....here is what is stated at CV joint school part 1 as it pertains to lubrication,,,

CV JOINT LUBRICATION

CV joints require a special type of high temperature, high pressure grease. Ordinary chassis grease or multipurpose grease should never be used in a CV joint.

The condition of the grease as well as the amount of grease in the joint will determine how long the joint lasts. One of the purposes of the boot that surrounds the CV joint is to keep dirt and moisture out. The other is to keep the grease in. If a boot is torn, cracked, punctured or comes loose, dirt and water can contaminate the grease in the joint causing accelerated wear which will eventually lead to joint failure. Loss of grease can also occur which will further shorten the life of the joint. So the boots must be in good condition to protect the joint.

Boots often become brittle with age and exposure to heat. Boots can also be damaged by road hazards and the careless use of j-hooks by a tow truck operator. Old boots should never be reused if a CV joint is being replaced. That is why most new CV joints come with a new boot.
 
Here is what is stated on CV joint school part 2 as it pertains to grease,,,

If the CV joint shows no wear or damage, it should be okay to reuse. If it does not pass inspection or is obviously defective, it needs to be replaced. Either way, before the CV joint goes back on the shaft it should be packed with CV joint grease (never ordinary chassis grease!). Special grease is usually provided with the replacement boot along with instructions on how to pack the joint. About a third of the grease is typically packed into the joint, and the rest is put inside the boot before it goes on to serve as a reservoir for the joint. There is some debate as to how much the grease actually moves around inside the joint and boot as the vehicle is being driven, but it is there for a purpose so it should be used.

BOOT INSTALLATION

When the new boot is installed over the joint, it must be properly positioned on both joint and housing. Most boots have a lip on the inside diameter of both ends that fits into a groove on both parts to assure a tight seal. Installed boots must not be crimped, twisted or collapsed. If the boot is not in its normal shape, loosen a clamp and "burp" it by carefully sliding a screwdriver between the boot lip and driveshaft or joint housing. This should allow enough air into the boot to return it to its normal shape...

I added that last part about the allowing air into the boot to allow to return to its normal shape,,

Now this is actually one area where CV joint school and the school of hard knocks differ in opinion,
As I recall it was a question on a ASE test, and if I remember right, I was taught to squeeze some Air out to allow for heat expansion,,,

The other thing CV joint school mentions is that to pack all of the grease in there, and the boot acts as a reservoir and all of it should be used, only states that it is there for a purpose,,,

What would that be???

And yes E-rock while you think this is kicking a dead horse,,

No sir yee "Bob" Frank the grease guy is going to undermine and attack this wall of Toyota sales man nonsense till there is no longer a brick upon another,,,

You have met your match,,,, a grease monkey
 
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