....I read on turbo diesel truck websites people quoting since rotella's conversion to cj-4 that it is junk and don't know why? If cj-4 rotella is junk, then wouldnt all cj-4 oils be junk? Has anybody had bad experience with this oil? A bad UOA,sludge, or any other problem? It is my understanding that in order for any oil to be rated cj-4 it has to pass some pretty stringent tests. I even hear people at auto parts stores blaspheming this oil! What am I missing here oil guru's? I thought I heard on here something about a low flashpoint, and that could cause more consumption than others with higher flashpoint due to less oil being burned off in ring land area? All comments are appreciated!
So many negative comments about cj-4 rotella
- Thread starter Ponch
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Well, I ran it for 10K miles in our '01 Jetta 2.0. You can find the UOA in the UOA section.
Consumption was indeed high (about 2.5 quarts), but that was due to this engine's characteristics rather than the oil itself most likely.
Consumption was indeed high (about 2.5 quarts), but that was due to this engine's characteristics rather than the oil itself most likely.
JHZR2
Staff member
At one time rotella was viewed as being very "ordinary" in terms of add pack and characteristics.
And let's not forget how people get wrongly wrapped around things like group IV, high ZDDP, etc. which may have been premium products at some point but verge on obsolete outside of a balanced formulation these days as we are able to better our chemistries and improve upon products.
On paper, it may show lower ZDDP, lower TBN, etc., but at the same time there are tradeoffs and some of these things may not be necessary in light of better fuel quality, other, better adds, etc.
And let's not forget how people get wrongly wrapped around things like group IV, high ZDDP, etc. which may have been premium products at some point but verge on obsolete outside of a balanced formulation these days as we are able to better our chemistries and improve upon products.
On paper, it may show lower ZDDP, lower TBN, etc., but at the same time there are tradeoffs and some of these things may not be necessary in light of better fuel quality, other, better adds, etc.
dnewton3
Staff member
What are you missing? Nothing.
What are they missing? Everything.
Anyone that thinks CJ-4 Rotella is "junk" likely has NO idea of what they are talking about, and most likely is repeating some other fool's misunderstanding, rhetoric and internet ramblings. I believe a lot of the mis-information goes back to that now infamous "article" (more like a poorly informed editorial) in the TurboDieselRegister. The author made so many assumptions without truly investigating, and ignored factual data. He poo-poo'ed all CJ-4 oils saying they were a step backwards. Take that bad info, add in some brand loyality, and you instantly have "winners" and "losers" based upon pure bunk.
Today, we (the informed group) know differently. CJ-4 oils outperform their predecessors in every way. With the use of ULSD fuel, even the TBN is almost a moot point because the acids simply don't degrade the TBN nearly as quickly. All one has to do is review the UOAs and the proof is clear.
Grade for grade, base stock to base stock, Rotella is no worse or better substantially, than it's competitors. True, the additive packages do vary from brand to brand, but those differences never seem to manifest themselves in the actual UOA results in regard to wear, insolubles, and such. Also, it is true that some of the lesser known "house" brands may trend towards the low end of the scale, and top-tier brand names the other way, but overall if a lube is CJ-4 approved, it can surely last for the minimum OEM OCI duration. What I call the "big three" (Delo, Delvac and Rotella) all perform so well in UOAs that if one were only given the wear metals, TBN and insoluble data, you'd have no way to know which was which in a UOA.
Anytime someone starts down this road, I alwasy challenge them to put up the data to back up their claims. Most realize they are in a hole and stop immediately. Some do try to talk about additives and mention how CJ-4's are down on some levels. But I always counter with the whole "input versus output" question. What's more important; knowing the starting roster of a ball team, or knowing the final score? It is the UOA analysis that tells the true tale, not the VOA.
What are they missing? Everything.
Anyone that thinks CJ-4 Rotella is "junk" likely has NO idea of what they are talking about, and most likely is repeating some other fool's misunderstanding, rhetoric and internet ramblings. I believe a lot of the mis-information goes back to that now infamous "article" (more like a poorly informed editorial) in the TurboDieselRegister. The author made so many assumptions without truly investigating, and ignored factual data. He poo-poo'ed all CJ-4 oils saying they were a step backwards. Take that bad info, add in some brand loyality, and you instantly have "winners" and "losers" based upon pure bunk.
Today, we (the informed group) know differently. CJ-4 oils outperform their predecessors in every way. With the use of ULSD fuel, even the TBN is almost a moot point because the acids simply don't degrade the TBN nearly as quickly. All one has to do is review the UOAs and the proof is clear.
Grade for grade, base stock to base stock, Rotella is no worse or better substantially, than it's competitors. True, the additive packages do vary from brand to brand, but those differences never seem to manifest themselves in the actual UOA results in regard to wear, insolubles, and such. Also, it is true that some of the lesser known "house" brands may trend towards the low end of the scale, and top-tier brand names the other way, but overall if a lube is CJ-4 approved, it can surely last for the minimum OEM OCI duration. What I call the "big three" (Delo, Delvac and Rotella) all perform so well in UOAs that if one were only given the wear metals, TBN and insoluble data, you'd have no way to know which was which in a UOA.
Anytime someone starts down this road, I alwasy challenge them to put up the data to back up their claims. Most realize they are in a hole and stop immediately. Some do try to talk about additives and mention how CJ-4's are down on some levels. But I always counter with the whole "input versus output" question. What's more important; knowing the starting roster of a ball team, or knowing the final score? It is the UOA analysis that tells the true tale, not the VOA.
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I have to agree with dnewton3. Most all the CJ-4 approved oils work just fine. I use a CJ-4 syn blend from my local supplier that is blended for them by Warren. 25,000 mile OCI's and it does as well, or even better in some cases, than any top name off the shelf oil I have ever tried based on the track record of UOA's on my Cummins ISX engine.
Each time the issue comes up, I become more and more convinced that modern blending and add packs are such that there really is no "bad" oil. Seems more and more it is just a matter of what a particular engine "likes". A similar concept is .22 rifles and ammunition. There is no real bad .22 ammo, but there is a big difference on which brand of ammo will give the best results in a particular rifle.
Each time the issue comes up, I become more and more convinced that modern blending and add packs are such that there really is no "bad" oil. Seems more and more it is just a matter of what a particular engine "likes". A similar concept is .22 rifles and ammunition. There is no real bad .22 ammo, but there is a big difference on which brand of ammo will give the best results in a particular rifle.
Quote:
What's more important; knowing the starting roster of a ball team, or knowing the final score? It is the UOA analysis that tells the true tale, not the VOA.
One does not know the final score till the game is over.
Game over with oils is excessive wear or breakdown.
Uh........ I want to know what is in my oil and by what degree. As a consumer I feel I am owed that. Shell is all wrong on this and I hope they change.
Why do I have to spend money on a UOA instead of Shell posting the truth about their oils ?
If they have nothing to hide, stop acting like it.
No one is going to home brew oil
and big oil companies will have the means to discover what is in Shell oil and to what degree.... so this whole it meets API specs thing only is directed at consumers that want to buy the best
What's more important; knowing the starting roster of a ball team, or knowing the final score? It is the UOA analysis that tells the true tale, not the VOA.
One does not know the final score till the game is over.
Game over with oils is excessive wear or breakdown.
Uh........ I want to know what is in my oil and by what degree. As a consumer I feel I am owed that. Shell is all wrong on this and I hope they change.
Why do I have to spend money on a UOA instead of Shell posting the truth about their oils ?
If they have nothing to hide, stop acting like it.
No one is going to home brew oil
and big oil companies will have the means to discover what is in Shell oil and to what degree.... so this whole it meets API specs thing only is directed at consumers that want to buy the best
dnewton3
Staff member
I believe that SOPUS does tell the truth. Perhaps not the "whole truth" as you see it, but I don't think they lie about stuff.
If they do not suit your needs, move on. It's a free and open market. If you put your money down on the counter, you agree to buy on the terms that they offer.
My point to the VOA/UOA thing is that too many people get hung up on the nuances of Ca, K, Mg, Mn, etc and never look at how a product performs overall. How many times have we seen lengthy discussions about in inputs to an oil, and yet the actual performance is pratically ignored.
If there were only one perfect lube forumla in all of the world, then all the oils would be identical in VOAs; they are not. Why? Because there is more than one road to the same destination, that's why.
If you're not happy with Shell, that is fine. Vote with your dollars; take your business elsewhere. If enough people do that, they will change their position. But for now, they simply don't have to because they market a viable, excellent product that remains #1 in the retail consumer market place.
If they do not suit your needs, move on. It's a free and open market. If you put your money down on the counter, you agree to buy on the terms that they offer.
My point to the VOA/UOA thing is that too many people get hung up on the nuances of Ca, K, Mg, Mn, etc and never look at how a product performs overall. How many times have we seen lengthy discussions about in inputs to an oil, and yet the actual performance is pratically ignored.
If there were only one perfect lube forumla in all of the world, then all the oils would be identical in VOAs; they are not. Why? Because there is more than one road to the same destination, that's why.
If you're not happy with Shell, that is fine. Vote with your dollars; take your business elsewhere. If enough people do that, they will change their position. But for now, they simply don't have to because they market a viable, excellent product that remains #1 in the retail consumer market place.
RTS 5W-40 is hard to beat, no matter its price. It's still near or at the top of HDEO oils performance wise, especially since the release of the T6 version. Much better at not shearing. They have always shown great UOA's whether it's in a tiny 4 cylinder, a big V8 gas engine, or any diesel engine. I love its versatility and how it always returns amazing UOAs. Unbeatable in my book if it suits your climate.
There was one parts vendor on TDIClub who swore up and down that a contact of his 'in the oil industry' told him 'they' (whomever this mysterious they is....) stripped all the zinc out of CJ-4 Rotella T synthetic. Which is patently untrue, even a cheap $25 UOA shows as such.
Dunno why anybody would bag on RTS/T6 though, it's been one of the best universal & bang-for-the-buck synthetic diesel-rated oils for a long, long time.
Dunno why anybody would bag on RTS/T6 though, it's been one of the best universal & bang-for-the-buck synthetic diesel-rated oils for a long, long time.
Anyone who thinks Rotella sucks, thinks Delo 400 and Delvac sucks. They are so close in quality and performance that it's really hard to pick an objective winner among them.
I like to see a complete data sheet to, but don't necessarily condemn an oil if it doesn't have one and then assume evil intent. Sparse data sheets is a common enough situation these days.
I like to see a complete data sheet to, but don't necessarily condemn an oil if it doesn't have one and then assume evil intent. Sparse data sheets is a common enough situation these days.
I agree nothing wrong with CJ oil's if running ULSD plus CI is getting hard to find anymore.
stick with any of the "big three" names and you cant go wrong,i still have 15gals of Plus-50 CI4 i stocked up with for my personal equipment but once that runs out i'll have to run CJ.
stick with any of the "big three" names and you cant go wrong,i still have 15gals of Plus-50 CI4 i stocked up with for my personal equipment but once that runs out i'll have to run CJ.
Originally Posted By: badnews
Well the fact is they are number one right now because they are the cheapest not the best .
They married the WalMart and well lets face it Shell Rotella is the cheapest oil you can buy that will get you by
Are you an Amsoil Zombie, a anti-Walmart liberal union thug or both?
Here's a fact: You've never passed a class in logic.
P.S.: I walked into a AutoZone in Casper, Wyoming and bought several gallons of Rotella T6 on sale at $15.99.
Well the fact is they are number one right now because they are the cheapest not the best .
They married the WalMart and well lets face it Shell Rotella is the cheapest oil you can buy that will get you by
Are you an Amsoil Zombie, a anti-Walmart liberal union thug or both?
Here's a fact: You've never passed a class in logic.
P.S.: I walked into a AutoZone in Casper, Wyoming and bought several gallons of Rotella T6 on sale at $15.99.
Originally Posted By: STG
Originally Posted By: badnews
Well the fact is they are number one right now because they are the cheapest not the best .
They married the WalMart and well lets face it Shell Rotella is the cheapest oil you can buy that will get you by
Are you an Amsoil Zombie, a anti-Walmart liberal union thug or both?
Here's a fact: You've never passed a class in logic.
Originally Posted By: badnews
Well the fact is they are number one right now because they are the cheapest not the best .
They married the WalMart and well lets face it Shell Rotella is the cheapest oil you can buy that will get you by
Are you an Amsoil Zombie, a anti-Walmart liberal union thug or both?
Here's a fact: You've never passed a class in logic.
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: STG
Originally Posted By: badnews
Well the fact is they are number one right now because they are the cheapest not the best .
They married the WalMart and well lets face it Shell Rotella is the cheapest oil you can buy that will get you by
Are you an Amsoil Zombie, a anti-Walmart liberal union thug or both?
Here's a fact: You've never passed a class in logic.
Originally Posted By: STG
Originally Posted By: badnews
Well the fact is they are number one right now because they are the cheapest not the best .
They married the WalMart and well lets face it Shell Rotella is the cheapest oil you can buy that will get you by
Are you an Amsoil Zombie, a anti-Walmart liberal union thug or both?
Here's a fact: You've never passed a class in logic.
I'm anti-WalMart. A liberal union thug. Not on your life. I think both of the aforementioned have done thier damage to made in the USA products. What that has to do with Rotella I do not know...
dnewton3
Staff member
Let's keep the politics and personal affronts out of this please.
On topic, I don't see that Shell is any more married to WM than other big companies. And Rotella is certainly not always the cheapest at WM, or other places.
Getting a good buy comes down to being opportunistic and shopping around. Two years ago I scored Delvac 1300 tow-for-one at OReilly's (equates to $6.50/gallon!). Rotella wasn't that cheap at the time, so I got the Delvac. Right now, OR's has Tection Extra and VPB on sale for $8.99/gallon; good prices on very good products.
I am, for a lack of a better term, a tight-wad when it comes to money. I choose products only AFTER I methodically review all the potential situations of use, product performance, availability, price, maintenance plan, etc. I have run Delvac, Rotella, and Tection Extra of differing grades in my Dmax and seen absolutely zero statistically significiant differences in my UOAs. So, why be loyal to a brand when the performance does not change? I'm loyal to my wallet. If there were a distinct, significant advantage to one brand over another, I'd certainly entertain the discussion. But after being around here a while, it is 100% abundantly clear to me that HDEOs are excellnet performers, regardless of brand.
The simple fact is that if you were to never know the inputs ( the VOA) most all of us (myself included) could not distinguish the differences in UOAs from brand to brand in the major HDEO players when it comes to wear, TBN and insolubles.
Rotella, Delvac, Delo, Tection Extra, VPB, LLG, Mystic JT, Kendall and Connoco products, MC; they ALL perform very well when used appropriately in a well defined and executed maintenance plan. Flat out, the lube market has become that good. I can find scores of UOAs to show were all the lubes are great performers for their price and market. Show me UOA evidence where any of them are such horrible failures to where we can condemn an entire brand line, such that the lube is at fault, and not neglected maintenance or un-related failure.
All one has to do is spend time here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=25&page=1
and they shall see that there is zero statistically significant advantage of one brand over another when it comes to wear protection and OCI duration (which are, BTW, the two main factors in considering the performance of one's lube selection). Period.
When I look at a VOA, it only speaks to the additive pack, and not the whole lube package. All the major companines are going to hold back some proprietary info; it's in their best interest.
I do agree that it's nice to have knowledge. But at times, we seek the wrong knowledge. We might want to know what goes in, but we need to know what comes out. VOAs are a great jumping off point for a discussion, but they pale in comparison to knowing the results. If VOAs were the ONLY knowledge we had, then it would turn this topic around. But, we have much more than VOAs and PDSs. We have UOAs. And UOAs trump VOAs any day of the week.
On topic, I don't see that Shell is any more married to WM than other big companies. And Rotella is certainly not always the cheapest at WM, or other places.
Getting a good buy comes down to being opportunistic and shopping around. Two years ago I scored Delvac 1300 tow-for-one at OReilly's (equates to $6.50/gallon!). Rotella wasn't that cheap at the time, so I got the Delvac. Right now, OR's has Tection Extra and VPB on sale for $8.99/gallon; good prices on very good products.
I am, for a lack of a better term, a tight-wad when it comes to money. I choose products only AFTER I methodically review all the potential situations of use, product performance, availability, price, maintenance plan, etc. I have run Delvac, Rotella, and Tection Extra of differing grades in my Dmax and seen absolutely zero statistically significiant differences in my UOAs. So, why be loyal to a brand when the performance does not change? I'm loyal to my wallet. If there were a distinct, significant advantage to one brand over another, I'd certainly entertain the discussion. But after being around here a while, it is 100% abundantly clear to me that HDEOs are excellnet performers, regardless of brand.
The simple fact is that if you were to never know the inputs ( the VOA) most all of us (myself included) could not distinguish the differences in UOAs from brand to brand in the major HDEO players when it comes to wear, TBN and insolubles.
Rotella, Delvac, Delo, Tection Extra, VPB, LLG, Mystic JT, Kendall and Connoco products, MC; they ALL perform very well when used appropriately in a well defined and executed maintenance plan. Flat out, the lube market has become that good. I can find scores of UOAs to show were all the lubes are great performers for their price and market. Show me UOA evidence where any of them are such horrible failures to where we can condemn an entire brand line, such that the lube is at fault, and not neglected maintenance or un-related failure.
All one has to do is spend time here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=25&page=1
and they shall see that there is zero statistically significant advantage of one brand over another when it comes to wear protection and OCI duration (which are, BTW, the two main factors in considering the performance of one's lube selection). Period.
When I look at a VOA, it only speaks to the additive pack, and not the whole lube package. All the major companines are going to hold back some proprietary info; it's in their best interest.
I do agree that it's nice to have knowledge. But at times, we seek the wrong knowledge. We might want to know what goes in, but we need to know what comes out. VOAs are a great jumping off point for a discussion, but they pale in comparison to knowing the results. If VOAs were the ONLY knowledge we had, then it would turn this topic around. But, we have much more than VOAs and PDSs. We have UOAs. And UOAs trump VOAs any day of the week.
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
On topic, I don't see that Shell is any more married to WM than other big companies. And Rotella is certainly not always the cheapest at WM, or other places.
From an HDEO perspective, it would be difficult to get Rotella up here if it weren't for the big box type stores. Shell has cut their bulk distributors in several provinces, including this one. Considering their big pails are available at Canadian Tire and Walmart, their availability is still there. For Delvac 1300 big pails, one tends to have to go to the bulk distributor.
I don't know if the Walmart link (if any link actually exists) had anything to do with the phasing out of bulk distributors. It does, however, make some sense, at least theoretically speaking. The average consumer isn't going to want to buy a pail of Rotella at the bulk distributor hidden away in the industrial part of town when he can buy it at the Canadian Tire or Walmart for a couple bucks cheaper.
On topic, I don't see that Shell is any more married to WM than other big companies. And Rotella is certainly not always the cheapest at WM, or other places.
From an HDEO perspective, it would be difficult to get Rotella up here if it weren't for the big box type stores. Shell has cut their bulk distributors in several provinces, including this one. Considering their big pails are available at Canadian Tire and Walmart, their availability is still there. For Delvac 1300 big pails, one tends to have to go to the bulk distributor.
I don't know if the Walmart link (if any link actually exists) had anything to do with the phasing out of bulk distributors. It does, however, make some sense, at least theoretically speaking. The average consumer isn't going to want to buy a pail of Rotella at the bulk distributor hidden away in the industrial part of town when he can buy it at the Canadian Tire or Walmart for a couple bucks cheaper.
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