ZDDP Levels Limit OCI??

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ZDDP levels under GF-4 have now been reduced by specifications which limit phosphorous to 0.8%. I am wondering what impact that has on the oil? the simple answer would seem to be just more wear. But, is it?

After doing a bit of research (here and elsewhere), I found that in simple terms ZDDP is an old, cheap, and very effective anti-wear additive. Exactly how it works seems to be a topic of current research, but the consensus seems to be that it reacts to pressure to form a local deposit on the metal which is very hard and wear resistant. It is a surface lubricant and works metal to metal in the absence of a lubricating film. It does not work well when the surfaces are aluminum as the hard deposit is abrasive to the softer aluminum. There does not appear to be a need for it unless you have metal to metal contact (oil film breakdown).

Under conditions of high temperature and moisture the ZDDP can breakdown and not be available for creating a wear protection film.

Graphs from this link have been posted before on BITOG, and here is the full article.

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=477

So this all suggests ZDDP is consumed as part of the normal service life of the oil. In conditions of high temperature, moisture, and metal to metal contact, the consumption rate will be higher.

By my way of thinking what all this points to is that when GF-4 required a 30% or so reduction in ZDDP, this has no immediate effect on wear protection of the new oil. What it does do is reduce the life of the wear protection component, ZDDP by say 30%. By that way of thinking this would seem to imply OCI's of GF-4(SM) compliant oil will be about 30% less than GF-3(SL) oils assuming the same wear protection end point. This of course assumes that one was pushing the OCI to the point of ZDDP depletion. And that may be the case if this graph from the article is accurate at all.

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Has anyone else looked into this interpretation of the effect of ZDDP reduction? i.e. it does not mean more wear, it just means shorter oil life if you want the same wear?
 
Well it seems the zddp levels we find at the end of a 3000 mile OCI of SL oil were about that of new SM oil. I think there is good reason to use a zddp additive, but instead of dumping the whole bottle in at the beginning, maybe half the bottle and then a couple ounces more every 1000 miles or so to extend the OCI.
 
Don't the other additives, such as moly, take care of the perceived problem?
Wonder what Terry thinks?
Hmmm.
I have a UOA from last year using Chevron HM 10W30, which is an SL oil. I currently have Havoline 10W30 SM in my Jeep. Wonder if a comparison of UOA's would show anything that we could draw reasonable conclusions from?
Maybe not. But I'll do one anyway, trying to get close to the same mileage on the oil.

[ August 24, 2006, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: MarkC ]
 
From my reading on this website and my own personal experience I have concluded that there are 4 conditions that dictate that it is time for an oil change.

1. Oil contamination
2. Depleted detergency and TBN
3. Oil goes out of grade
4. Depleted anti-wear additive package

It depends on how your engine treats oil, and how you drive as to what is the dominant factor. For high-performance driving the fourth factor might be most important. A virgin vs. used oil analysis can measure all of these things I think.
 
That chart and its alleged implications were posted the first of this month and kicked around ad nauseum. Funny thing is, UOAs with the "inferior" SM oils don't show increased wear levels over the same OCIs, but I see the debate continues with another go-round.
rolleyes.gif


(There was a companion graph that both the original poster and you conveniently neglected to reference. Basically its myriad chemical breakdown product level curves over the duration of the above chart indicated continued antiwear protection maintenance well throughout that period.)
 
quote:

Originally posted by Ray H:
That chart and its alleged implications were posted the first of this month and kicked around ad nauseum. Funny thing is, UOAs with the "inferior" SM oils don't show increased wear levels over the same OCIs, but I see the debate continues with another go-round.
rolleyes.gif


(There was a companion graph that both the original poster and you conveniently neglected to reference. Basically its myriad chemical breakdown product level curves over the duration of the above chart indicated continued antiwear protection maintenance well throughout that period.)


Yes Ray H, you are referring to the thread I started in the past: http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015751#000000

If you care to reread my post I did not alleged or implicated anything but asked legitimate questions.

What is truly nauseating is your attitude and hostility on this board.

Question for you, if ZDDP depletion was not an issue at all as you claim, why Mobil 1 EP would have more P compared with the regular Mobil oils?

This is also interesting reading:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010523;p=1
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=77&relatedbookgroup=Lubrication
 
quote:

Originally posted by friendly_jacek:
What is truly nauseating is your attitude and hostility on this board.

Please re-read the forum rules about personal comments.
nono.gif


By the way jacek, the term, "alleged", referenced back to the chart, not you.
 
One of the details absent from the graph posted above is the engine the data was taken from. Was it a BBC V8 pushrod design from years gone by with flat-tappets, chain driven cam driving a non-rollerized upper valvetrain, fuel pump, mechanical distributor, oil pump gears thru a shaft and more gears, high tension oil rings,....or...a Honda 4-banger with with a belt driven OHC operating on a rollerized valvetrain, no distributor, crank driven g-rotor oil pump, electric fuel pump, low tension rings, pistons coated, etc.

Ray H. Don't change a thing...your humor is worthwhile even if you do get a bit crotchety sometimes.
 
Sarcasm - it's what I do to make a technical point, but it's never intended personally. (just tryin' in my own way to challenge people's assumptions, not the people) I appreciate your taking the time to comment.
 
I've seen the previous thread, but it didn't really get to my fundamental question. My first thoughts was that if ZDDP works, and is a needed additive, and it is reduced, then my engine will see more wear. Further, it is not at all comforting that in additon to requiring less phosphorous, GF-4 also apparantly allows for more wear.

But now I think my first thoughts were wrong, and less ZDDP is not a problem with new oil. The starting level just determines at what point it becomes too low to be effective. So is it really only an issue for the long OCI's practitioners, and not for the ones that change oil based on MFG recommendations?

In the other thread I detected there was some cynicism about the science. Based on my quick research, I think it is likely very hard to track the life and fate of ZDDP in the engine. However, I'm now convinced it is consumed and has a very finite life.

You find strange things when you surf the net for information. I found that they are researching how ZDDP works at the Canadian Light Source facility. We've had presentations from this organization, and they have world class facilities. See these links for a bit more info. No answers just illustration of how hard it is to find out how the stuff works.

http://www.lightsource.ca/brochures/bancroft_final.pdf

http://www.lightsource.ca/aboutus/about.php
 
Though I have not read through many of the above links, I can only think that newer additives are being utilized in place of the familiar levels of ZDDP and others. It's been mentioned around here that there are things being used that just don't show-up in the average oil analysis, and if there was to be a sudden change in additive formulations to say no ZDDP, how might someone who has viewed that fundamental to the well being of their equipment over the years feel about using it? Also consider the costs of such additives which are likely specialized and more finite in production because it IS new. It's just going to take time.

Perhaps we're in a moment of transition for which eventual phase-out is to occur - just like the changes in utilized materials and designs of machines, etc.?

I sense your concern, but seeing that there's much I wish I knew tribologically and chemically speaking and that UOA's don't appear to validate causes for worry (admittely a novice in translating), I trust the efforts of those individuals that do have the knowledge and resources to provide a product of like quality and potentially better (however that viewed).

There's always the argument to trend an oil's performance on one's own engine and conditions of use to get more specific data and aid in the optimization of preventative maintenance measures (for which I as yet can't "justify" I suppose). I guess I like a mystery for it just gives me something to fall back on and mull over - perhaps my life is more dull than I thought.
grin.gif


Take care all.
 
""Has anyone else looked into this interpretation of the effect of ZDDP reduction? i.e. it does not mean more wear, it just means shorter oil life if you want the same wear?""

Neither, when ZDDP was reduced things like Moly, Boron and esters etc were added to make up for lost AW protection.

Also MORE AO were added to make up for oxidation protection lost.

ZDDP has NOT been the sole AW and AO source for many years. so lowering it DID not cause any big deal.

bruce
 
quote:

Originally posted by Ron AKA:
Further, it is not at all comforting that in additon to requiring less phosphorous, GF-4 also apparantly allows for more wear.

You're misinformed if you believe GF-4 allows for more wear.
 
What Bruce says. It has to be true or the new oils would not pass the more stringent tests as 427Z06 is frequently having to remind us. Still us zddp junkies can't help but dope up our oil with zddp additives. But I am still leary of running SM in my monster 7.5 liter "V8 pushrod design from years gone by with flat-tappets, chain driven cam driving a non-rollerized upper valvetrain, ... mechanical distributor, oil pump gears thru a shaft ..." Actually the book on this one calls for HDEO, but that is because it has a GVWR of 17,000 lbs.
 
The only need for a lot of ZDDP are racing applications. If you look at all racing oils such as Maxima, LQ, Joe Gibb's, Redline and M1-R, they all use a ton of ZDDP. For daily drivers, the additives bruce mentioned are doing as good of a job. No need to worry.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
You're misinformed if you believe GF-4 allows for more wear.

Somebody (not necessarily a BITOGer for once
wink.gif
) questioned the wear protection of SM/GF-4, it was quickly accepted as fact (again, not necessarily through BITOG for once
wink.gif
) and the rumor'll likely be with us 'till the end of time. It doesn't help when national periodicals brazenly stoke the flames (figuratively and literally) that flat tappet cams suffer premature wear from the use of SM/GF-4 oils when the reality is that these oils offer superior protection. Classic FUD.
 
What's funny is that national periodical has mentioned Rotella in every issue since the article.
lol.gif


Perhaps they'll change their name to "HOT SOPUS"
 
quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:

quote:

Originally posted by Ron AKA:
Further, it is not at all comforting that in additon to requiring less phosphorous, GF-4 also apparantly allows for more wear.

You're misinformed if you believe GF-4 allows for more wear.


I think I got caught repeating what I read in another post by someone who seemed to know what they were talking about. Do you know of any side by side documents with a link that compare GF-3 and GF-4?
 
quote:

Originally posted by Ron AKA:
Do you know of any side by side documents with a link that compare GF-3 and GF-4?

API SJ and SL

API SM

It is difficult to compare SL and SM exactly because some of the test protocols have changed. However, any way you look at it SM allows for less wear and less deposites than SL.
 
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